How Can Anyone Doubt The Meaning Of The 2nd Amendment With These Quotes?

[shifrbv]

So many people are down on gun owners in this country and dispute the meaning of the 2nd Amendment. Yet with quotes like these, how can there be any confusion?


"That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of The United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms..." (Samuel Adams)

"A free people ought...to be armed..." (George Washington, speech of January 7, 1790 in the Boston Independent Chronicle, January 14, 1790)

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyrany in government." (Thomas Jefferson)

"The right of the people to keep and bear...arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country..." (James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789)

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." (George Mason, 3 Elliott, Debates at 425-426)

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside... Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived the use of them..." (Thomas Paine, I writings of Thomas Paine at 56 (1894))

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them..." (Richard Henery Lee, 1788, Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.)


Weren't we told by Jefferson, "On every question of construction (of the constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." (Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823, The Complete Jefferson, p.322)

I would say the "spirt of the debates" favored unfettered gun ownership whether everyone likes it or not.

 

[kamiam]

bump for some great quotes

 

[JohnnyKnoxville]

I support the right to arm bears

 

[Amused]

A few more:

"The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation. . . (where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
--James Madison; The Federalist, No. 46

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson

"When the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man, who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually...I ask, who are the militia? They consist of now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
---George Mason

"That the People have a right to keep and bear Arms; that a well regulated Militia, composed of the Body of the People, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe Defence of a free state."
-- Within Mason's declaration of "the essential and unalienable Rights of the People

"If circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights and those of their fellow citizens."
--Alexander Hamilton The Federalist, No. 29

"The said Constitution [shall] be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms."
--Samuel Adams; Massachusetts' U.S. Constitution ratification convention, 1788

"[A]rms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
--Thomas Paine Thoughts On Defensive War, 1775

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
--- Thomas Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774

"A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves . . . and include all men capable of bearing arms. . . To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms... The mind that aims at a select militia, must be influenced by a truly anti-republican principle."
--Richard Henry Lee; Additional Letters From The Federal Farmer, 1788

"The militia, who are in fact the effective part of the people at large, will render many troops quite unnecessary. They will form a powerful check upon the regular troops, and will generally be sufficient to over-awe them." -- An American Citizen, Oct. 21, 1787
"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American . . . . The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people."
--Tench Coxe; The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788

"As the military forces which must occasionally be raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article (of amendment) in their right to keep and bear their private arms."
-- Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power."
--Noah Webster; An Examination of The Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, Philadelphia, 1787

In the last Supreme Court decision regarding the Second Amendment, UNITED STATES v. MILLER, 307 U.S. 174 (1939), the court stated this in their decision:

"The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense."

 

[GasX]

Quoting people doesn't make you right.

Wouldn't this be a better debate if you included the actual amendment?

 

[Viper GTS]

Article II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Viper GTS

 

[Russ]

Mwilding,

I guess you missed this?



<< On every question of construction (of the constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text >>



The whole point of the quotes is that the few words of the Amendment itself do not convey the entire meaning. This is why TJ wrote the above.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Amused]

<< Quoting people doesn't make you right.

Wouldn't this be a better debate if you included the actual amendment? >>



Actually, it does. In decerning exactly what the Second Amendment means, one must consider the original intent of the men who wrote it, and voted for it.

 

[kamiam]

and as the above qoutes say the &quot;militia&quot; is any ABLE BODIED citizen NOT just the &quot;national guard&quot; or the &quot;armed services&quot;

 

[Amused]

For those who think the militia is the only reason we have a right to keep and bear arms, consider this analogue using an amendment similar in structure to the Second Amendment:

&quot;A well-educated electorate being necessary to the preservation of a free society, the right of the people to read and compose books shall not be infringed.&quot;

Obviously this does not mean that only well-educated voters have the right to read or write books. Nor does it mean that the right to read books of one's choosing can be restricted to only those subjects which lead to a well-educated electorate.

The purpose of this provision is: although not everyone may end up being well-educated, enough people will become well-educated to preserve a free society.

Nor can it be construed to deny one's pre-existing right to read books if there are not enough well-educated people to be found. The right to read books of one's choosing is not granted by the above statement. The rationale given is only one reason for not abridging that right, there are others as well.

Similarly the Second Amendment states, the people from whom a necessary and well-regulated militia will be composed, shall not have their right to keep and bear arms infringed.

It was the Founders' desire &quot;that every man be armed&quot; such that from the &quot;whole body of the people&quot; (militia) a sufficient number would serve in the well-regulated militia.

 

[Quaggoth]

Bump

 

[GasX]

The Constitution is not gospel it is a living thing. It has been amended over 20 times. I believe that the Articles need to be debated constantly and if no longer valid changed.

Do we need to get rid of guns? No

Do we need to control their distribution tio criminals better? Yes

 

[Russ]

Any minute now, some gun-grabber will jump in with &quot;But, times are different now, our Founding Fathers couldn't have seen what would happen&quot;.

Which translates to:

Hey, I think I'm smarter and wiser then the men who founded the longest-lasting free political system in the world.

Russ, NCNE

 

[pulpp]

i must say those are great quotes, and i agree with them, and yes you can use quotes in your argument beacuse they show the original intent.

 

[GasX]

I particluarly like this one (from above):

&quot;Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.&quot;
--- Thomas Jefferson's &quot;Commonplace Book,&quot; 1774

 

[Viper GTS]

Do we need to get rid of guns? No

Do we need to control their distribution tio criminals better? Yes

Considering the fact that we're the ones that are armed &amp; capable of enforcing our right to bear arms, you might wanna re-consider...



Viper GTS

 

[kamiam]

absolutely outstanding Russ...so just where is moonbeam???
oh and lets not forget classy either

 

[GasX]

Russ, are you saying that times don't change?

The Constitution did not forbid cloning, does that mean we have a right to do it?

 

[Russ]

<< It has been amended over 20 times. >>



Yes, to affirm additional rights, not to deny existing rights. You make the mistake of believing that our rights are granted by the Constitution. They are not, they are protected by it. They existed before the document was drafted.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Russ]

<< Russ, are you saying that times don't change? >>



No, I'm saying that fundamental rights do not change.

Russ, NCNE

 

[EvanFerguson]

it's all relative people

 

[ThisIsMatt]

<< Quoting people doesn't make you right. >>

Correct! But quoting some of the founding fathers of the country puts some good weight in an argument...

 

[Barrak]

Oh god not this AGAIN, No one is going take your guns away,its NOT going to happen because of the 2nd Amendment. The government is not out to get you because you own a gun. They just want you to take responsibilty for owning one. A gun is a WEAPON of extreme power.

&quot;With great power comes great responsibilty&quot; - a very wise man.

 

[Jumpem]

Does anyone else think that an attempted gun confiscation by the government would lead to a second civil war? I don't think that Americans will give up their God given rights anywhere near as easily as the British, Australian, etc... Just something to think about.