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Riparian

Senior member
Jul 21, 2011
294
0
76
I'm surprised by the level of contempt that some here are showing for a disabled person. Seriously.
I am unsure if you are using the word "contempt" in a strange manner or if your definition of "contempt" contains something more than what Merriam Webster includes:

Definition of CONTEMPT

1
a : the act of despising : the state of mind of one who despises : disdain
b : lack of respect or reverence for something
2
: the state of being despised
3
: willful disobedience to or open disrespect of a court, judge, or legislative body <contempt of court>

From the context of what you have been writing, it seems the word you want to use is "underestimate." No one here has shown any contempt, despising, irreverence, disrespect, and so on and so forth to those who are handicapped. We're showing "contempt" for an officer who was trapped in a corner by a person who physically cannot both swing a pen as a threat while still cornering a person. If he's moving the wheelchair to keep the officer "cornered," then he physically cannot also be waving the pen around as a threat. If he's waving the pen around as a threat, then he's not moving the wheelchair. The only possibility for this person to be both a threat with the pen and at the same time maintaining his "cornering" of this officer is if his wheelchair could be steered using some other appendage, which, as of now, is unknown.

So, no, no one is showing any contempt for the disabled person at issue. No one is showing any contempt to disabled people in general. I've lived and dealt with disabled people all my life, so it's incredibly presumptuous and pretty much par for the course for you to pretend that you somehow know better than others.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,445
0
0
I am unsure if you are using the word "contempt" in a strange manner or if your definition of "contempt" contains something more than what Merriam Webster includes:

Definition of CONTEMPT

1
a : the act of despising : the state of mind of one who despises : disdain
b : lack of respect or reverence for something
2
: the state of being despised
3
: willful disobedience to or open disrespect of a court, judge, or legislative body <contempt of court>

From the context of what you have been writing, it seems the word you want to use is "underestimate." No one here has shown any contempt, despising, irreverence, disrespect, and so on and so forth to those who are handicapped. We're showing "contempt" for an officer who was trapped in a corner by a person who physically cannot both swing a pen as a threat while still cornering a person. If he's moving the wheelchair to keep the officer "cornered," then he physically cannot also be waving the pen around as a threat. If he's waving the pen around as a threat, then he's not moving the wheelchair. The only possibility for this person to be both a threat with the pen and at the same time maintaining his "cornering" of this officer is if his wheelchair could be steered using some other appendage, which, as of now, is unknown.

So, no, no one is showing any contempt for the disabled person at issue. No one is showing any contempt to disabled people in general. I've lived and dealt with disabled people all my life, so it's incredibly presumptuous and pretty much par for the course for you to pretend that you somehow know better than others.
Lack of respect for their abilities covers it. You're not the only one who has lived with and dealt with disabled people.
 

Riparian

Senior member
Jul 21, 2011
294
0
76
Lack of respect for their abilities covers it. You're not the only one who has lived with and dealt with disabled people.
So, wait, do I have contempt for disabled people or contempt for their abilities? You seem to be having a hard time keeping track of your arguments. Let me also help you with your second clause:


They were taken by surprise, it happens. I know enough paras that I sure as hell wouldn't want them getting a hold of me. Why such contempt for this disabled persons abilities?
This was your response to my previous post. Notice how you brought up the fact that you know enough paras that informs your opinion. It was you, and not I, who appealed to experience as your moral authority in this matter. The second half of my latest post was addressing your appeal to that authority and yet, you continued your argument with "You're not the only one who has lived with and dealt with disabled people." I pity your lack of organization for presenting arguments.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,570
2
0
Ah, that great AT P&N tradition of the armchair warriors weighing in.

Claunch, who lost an arm and a leg in a train accident, trapped one officer with his wheelchair in the corner of a room "where he couldn't get out," said a Houston police department spokesperson who declined to be identified. The double amputee was "advancing towards" the officers and "refusing to show his hands."

According to police accounts reported in the media, including by KTRK, Claunch attempted to stab the officer with an object that turned out to be a pen.
Claunch was capable of making people in the house feel threatened during an outrage, even though he was confined to a wheelchair, Garcia said.
For all they knew it was a gun. If it had been a gun, or a knife, everyone criticizing the cops in this thread would be silent. It's tragic that it turned out to be a pen, but an unstable man with a potentially deadly weapon acting aggressively towards a cop. That's asking for it.

But screw that! Cops are evil because a bunch of whiny bitches on AT P&N say so and they deserve to be convicted of murder and castrated with a serrated knife. :rolleyes:

 

Riparian

Senior member
Jul 21, 2011
294
0
76
Ah, that great AT P&N tradition of the armchair warriors weighing in.





For all they knew it was a gun. If it had been a gun, or a knife, everyone criticizing the cops in this thread would be silent. It's tragic that it turned out to be a pen, but an unstable man with a potentially deadly weapon acting aggressively towards a cop. That's asking for it.

But screw that! Cops are evil because a bunch of whiny bitches on AT P&N say so and they deserve to be convicted of murder and castrated with a serrated knife. :rolleyes:

For all they knew it could have been a dead man's switch connected to a bomb planted in the building. For all they knew, it could have been a spoon. There's a reason why the legal system goes by an objective instead of a subjective standard. Would a reasonable person believe that a shiny object, without any more identification is automatically a knife? If we go by your standard, any time anyone has something in their hands while acting in a threatening manner, we should shoot first, ask questions later. The real question you need to be asking is if it was reasonable for an officer to mistake a pen for a knife? Many believe it's unreasonable while you and Monovillage believe it's reasonable.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,570
2
0
For all they knew it could have been a dead man's switch connected to a bomb planted in the building. For all they knew, it could have been a spoon. There's a reason why the legal system goes by an objective instead of a subjective standard. Would a reasonable person believe that a shiny object, without any more identification is automatically a knife? If we go by your standard, any time anyone has something in their hands while acting in a threatening manner, we should shoot first, ask questions later. The real question you need to be asking is if it was reasonable for an officer to mistake a pen for a knife? Many believe it's unreasonable while you and Monovillage believe it's reasonable.
I believe if a violent, non-compliant schizophrenic is physically threatening a cop with his hand behind his back (remember we don't know exactly what was being said), then yes the cop should shoot. What if the guy was making verbal threats and indicating he had a weapon? He apparently attempted to stab a cop, so I don't think the possibility's that far out there.

Likewise if I put my hand behind my back, walked toward a cop and say "hey pig I'm gonna kill you!" I would fully expect to be drawn on and possibly shot.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,445
0
0
So, wait, do I have contempt for disabled people or contempt for their abilities? You seem to be having a hard time keeping track of your arguments. Let me also help you with your second clause:
This was your response to my previous post. Notice how you brought up the fact that you know enough paras that informs your opinion. It was you, and not I, who appealed to experience as your moral authority in this matter. The second half of my latest post was addressing your appeal to that authority and yet, you continued your argument with "You're not the only one who has lived with and dealt with disabled people." I pity your lack of organization for presenting arguments.
Who were you before you made a sock puppet to post to Prof John?
 

Riparian

Senior member
Jul 21, 2011
294
0
76
I believe if a violent, non-compliant schizophrenic is physically threatening a cop with his hand behind his back (remember we don't know exactly what was being said), then yes the cop should shoot. What if the guy was making verbal threats and indicating he had a weapon? He apparently attempted to stab a cop, so I don't think the possibility's that far out there.

Likewise if I put my hand behind my back, walked toward a cop and say "hey pig I'm gonna kill you!" I would fully expect to be drawn on and possibly shot.
The reasonableness standard requires an examination of the situation and how a reasonable person would react in that situation. The posts in this thread have been dealing with whether it was reasonable for the officer to feel that his life was being threatened (or more accurately, whether the officer's partner thought the officer was having his life threatened) when a person with one leg and one arm who is wheelchair bound threatens with an object. It's not just as simple as you walking up to a cop as we would have to examine you under an entirely different set of circumstances.

As an example, if instead this person had very limited mobility in his remaining arm but still had something shiny in it, would you still say that the person was a threat great enough to use deadly force over? How about if the person had no mobility in his arm? We're talking about degrees of threat and many of the people in this thread have a hard time believing that a double amputee in a wheelchair could both corner an officer into a situation where there's no escape whatsoever that deadly force was the only option left.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,861
2
0
The officer went over the line by shooting the person. Trapped in a corner by someone who's wheelchair-bound? Both officers need to go back to the academy for training. Assuming they don't get their asses handed to them by IAB.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
I simply do not understand why the police officer could not have kicked over the dudes wheel chair and got him on the ground. Was the dude really a risk? I mean come on the dudes in a fucking wheelchair. Ever knocked over someone in a wheel chair? it's pretty easy.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,650
0
0
I believe itrolent, non-compliant schizophrenic is physically threatening a cop with his hand behind his back (remember we don't know exactly what was being said), then yes the cop should shoot. What if the guy was making verbal threats and indicating he had a weapon? He apparently attempted to stab a cop, so I don't think the possibility's that far out there.

Likewise if I put my hand behind my back, walked toward a cop and say "hey pig I'm gonna kill you!" I would fully expect to be drawn on and possibly shot.
I think that you failed too actually read the article.

The Guy had one arm. If it was behind his back, how was he able to navigate the wheelchair to trap the cop in a corner? If he was waving it, why couldn't the cop come up from behind the guy and grab his chair and move him out off his partners' way?
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,445
0
0
I think that you failed too actually read the article.

The Guy had one arm. If it was behind his back, how was he able to navigate the wheelchair to trap the cop in a corner? If he was waving it, why couldn't the cop come up from behind the guy and grab his chair and move him out off his partners' way?
maybe it was a motorized wheelchair. The story never said.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,000
806
126
I live near Houston and this article disgusts me. Those cops are the biggest bunch of pussies if they needed to use lethal force to deal with a mentally ill double amputee D:

Don't cops also have steel batons? Why didn't they use those?

Fucking trigger happy bastards!
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,576
99
91
Let's hope you're never incompetent to the point that you can be trapped in the corner by a one armed, one legged, wheelchair bound person who is somehow out flanking you in that corner with his one arm and at the same time threatening you with that same hand with a shiny object.
I've read this post three times now, and it's made me laugh each time! :thumbsup:
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,576
99
91
He could have been using either his amputated arm stump or leg stump to drive the chair.
You're degenerating the entire scenario into a farce.

You keep trying to make this man sound outrageously dangerous, but you achieve the complete opposite.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,445
0
0
You're degenerating the entire scenario into a farce.

You keep trying to make this man sound outrageously dangerous, but you achieve the complete opposite.
No, you're being an idiot by judging and condemning the police officers without having the whole story, i'm just interjecting possibilities into the debate. I'm also surprised how useless/weak/unable to be a threat that some think disabled people are.
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
76
For all they knew it was a gun. If it had been a gun, or a knife, everyone criticizing the cops in this thread would be silent. It's tragic that it turned out to be a pen, but an unstable man with a potentially deadly weapon acting aggressively towards a cop. That's asking for it.
Funny how it turns out that it wasn't a gun or a knife and it was a pen, hence the argument. If someone gets a gun confused with a pen, how are they a police officer? Isn't there a course that has pictures of guns?
Even a quick course would be ok
"Ok, this is a gun, also called a bang bang for some of you, it looks like this: [picture of handgun]"
"This is a pen, hey earl, stop eating it, you write things with it...right you are Texans, ok, writing is a thing where you use letters to make words that, ok sigh, a pen can't shoot you."
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,833
1
0
Let me play devil's advocate... Aren't NRA types always saying that a pen is just as dangerous as a gun, because guns don't kill people, people do? Well then why is wielding a pen any less reason for the police to shoot than if he were wielding a gun?
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,493
3,834
136
Give the cop a medal.

One less liberal socialist thinking he's entitled to free healthcare leeching off our tax dollars.
 

themusgrat

Golden Member
Nov 2, 2005
1,408
0
0
So the cop should be willing to risk severe injury to himself? Tip for you, that's not part of the job. A threatening suspect wielding an unknown weapon refusing to release it while continuing in an aggressive action towards anyone... It won't end well. Ever.
The job is to serve and protect son. Whether shooting a mentally ill person in a wheelchair "served and protected" is the question you need to turn your attention to.
 

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