House Republicans try once more to break the H-1B logjam

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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Originally posted by: Wreckem
Originally posted by: BigDH01
There is no shortage of skilled American workers. As far as scientists go, we overproduce them. There is a shortage of cheap skilled American labor. This whole thing stems from a report from the NSF in the 80s I believe, and companies have continued to manipulate this perception in order to secure more H1Bs to depress wages.

Is that why most schools PhD programs in Science, Math, and Engineering are comprised of mostly foreign students? Some programs are over 75% foreigners. In Graduate programs in general Americans are becoming the minority.

I do not know about now, but many moons ago the foreign students were subsidized/sponsored by their governments.

The Engineering fields have always been in cycles, to little, the salaries rise and people gravitate to the fields. When the fields get saturated, students go elsewhere and salaries stagnated.

In the 60's and 70's, foreign second and third world governments started sending their brightest to the US engineering/science programs. These would stay through the PHD programs and then return home.

Costs of tuition rose because the foreign tuition was never a problem and it allowed the justification of higher costs across the board.

I do not now if this trend is continuing, but it makes sense.
The schools can keep the costs high because there is a steady supply of students that will pay for it. where the students get the funds is the key. Scholarships, family, self employment/savings or subsidies. The schools do nto care where the $$s come from as long as they are there.


 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Originally posted by: Genx87

If the govt is restricting the flow of labor then it isnt a free market. Internally the wages have gone up in all techical fields and yet the students arent flocking. I dont know the reasons but something tells me it may have something to do with the race to the bottom MTV effect.

It would be an internal free market. According to the theory, capitalism should still work even if an unlimited supply of foreign labor cannot access the market. After all, if the U.S. were an isolated island, free market economics should still lead to wealth.

For that matter, if those foreign laborers are impoverished as the result of socialism, then would allowing them to provide a subsidy for capital really be capitalism since their poverty was the result of socialism? Is merging the nation's economy with a socialist economy really still capitalism?

Mass immigration is really less about the nation's economic system and more about foreign policy. What's sad is that so many self-proclaimed "capitalists" and "free marketers" are afraid of having an insular American free market. For some reason they seem to think that having an infinite supply of labor relative to capital is a necessary part of the free market.

Because having the govt restrict the free market is no free market at all.


 

maverick44

Member
Aug 9, 2007
111
0
0
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: Wreckem
Originally posted by: BigDH01
There is no shortage of skilled American workers. As far as scientists go, we overproduce them. There is a shortage of cheap skilled American labor. This whole thing stems from a report from the NSF in the 80s I believe, and companies have continued to manipulate this perception in order to secure more H1Bs to depress wages.

Is that why most schools PhD programs in Science, Math, and Engineering are comprised of mostly foreign students? Some programs are over 75% foreigners. In Graduate programs in general Americans are becoming the minority.

I do not know about now, but many moons ago the foreign students were subsidized/sponsored by their governments.

The Engineering fields have always been in cycles, to little, the salaries rise and people gravitate to the fields. When the fields get saturated, students go elsewhere and salaries stagnated.

In the 60's and 70's, foreign second and third world governments started sending their brightest to the US engineering/science programs. These would stay through the PHD programs and then return home.

Costs of tuition rose because the foreign tuition was never a problem and it allowed the justification of higher costs across the board.

I do not now if this trend is continuing, but it makes sense.
The schools can keep the costs high because there is a steady supply of students that will pay for it. where the students get the funds is the key. Scholarships, family, self employment/savings or subsidies. The schools do nto care where the $$s come from as long as they are there.

Foreign GOVERNMENTS paying students to study abroad ......you have got to be kidding me. Most of the funding comes from the schools own pockets and the pockets of foreign students. All masters and Phds are subsidized to some extent to almost every student whether international or local.

There are some schools that are the exception ( like biz schools or law schools) or even arts programs. Engineering programs are more or less self sufficient deriving money from NSF grants research grants etc.

 

BigDH01

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2005
1,630
82
91
Originally posted by: Wreckem
Originally posted by: BigDH01
There is no shortage of skilled American workers. As far as scientists go, we overproduce them. There is a shortage of cheap skilled American labor. This whole thing stems from a report from the NSF in the 80s I believe, and companies have continued to manipulate this perception in order to secure more H1Bs to depress wages.

Is that why most schools PhD programs in Science, Math, and Engineering are comprised of mostly foreign students? Some programs are over 75% foriegners. In Graduate programs in general americans are becoming the minority.

I'm at an engineering school, and most engineering, science, and math undergrads are American. My fiance is graduating with her degree in ChE and every group member I've ever seen her with has been American. For her, it's not worth it to go to grad school as she can get a job right now. I also know a ton of American EEs and CprEs. They aren't going to grad school for engineering because they don't need to. Career-wise, it's basically equivalent to have 2 years of work experience or a Master's. If you aren't going into academia or switching careers, what's the point?

I graduated with a degree in a biological science and I regret it to this day. Had I known
what kind of crappy pay most scientists usually receive, I would've chosen something else. I think many Americans aren't going further in science because there is little economic benefit in doing so. In fact, the only microbiologists I knew that went to grad school did so because they had few other options. It was either take a low paying lab rat job now or get further schooling and hope conditions improve. If you want more American scientists, you need to offer them more than what your average businessman, salesman, or, in the case of my single biological offer post grad, garbageman makes. If you see more foreigners in a program, it's probably because the Americans who would've applied saw the writing on the wall and found careers elsewhere (what myself and many of my fellow graduates did). If we trust the law of supply and demand, then the reason that people are getting science degrees and changing fields due to depressed wages is either because there is no demand for these laborers or that there is already a large pool of labor. Companies are claiming that the demand is there so the second seems to be true. I think companies would like to keep it that way, and this is why they always claim shortage.

Granted, my case was a biological science and not computer science, but I can't imagine the situation is that much different. I ended up taking a lot of Comp Sci classes before graduating in an attempt to salvage some of my education, and most of my classmates were American. The cyberwar competition we had? Most contestants were American. The Linux Club? Mostly American. The Information Assurance grad degree I'm receiving this month? My classmates were almost entirely American.

I highly doubt that Americans are becoming a minority in grad programs. Even here, most engineering, science, and math grad students are still American. I'm not denying that there are a large number of foreign students, but they certainly aren't the majority. In the lab where I worked as an undergrad (microbio - a reputation for having a large number of international students), there were 2 foreign students out of 11.

Listen, I don't think it really matters either way. As more people both domestically and internationally get important skills, American wages will be depressed. Either more foreigners come here with H1Bs or those jobs are simply shipped overseas. I just wish these companies would call it what it is. There are plenty of Americans to do the job, just not enough willing to do it as cheaply as they'd like. At least if they were honest, maybe American and international workers would attempt to fix the system by ensuring that wages move up to meet the American standard and not down to meet the international standard (maybe international unions). As it stands, the companies simply create mistrust and contempt between domestic and foreign workers ensuring that the process of global wage arbitrage will continue. End the "There aren't enough Americans to do the job" BS.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Originally posted by: maverick44
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: Wreckem
Originally posted by: BigDH01
There is no shortage of skilled American workers. As far as scientists go, we overproduce them. There is a shortage of cheap skilled American labor. This whole thing stems from a report from the NSF in the 80s I believe, and companies have continued to manipulate this perception in order to secure more H1Bs to depress wages.

Is that why most schools PhD programs in Science, Math, and Engineering are comprised of mostly foreign students? Some programs are over 75% foreigners. In Graduate programs in general Americans are becoming the minority.

I do not know about now, but many moons ago the foreign students were subsidized/sponsored by their governments.

The Engineering fields have always been in cycles, to little, the salaries rise and people gravitate to the fields. When the fields get saturated, students go elsewhere and salaries stagnated.

In the 60's and 70's, foreign second and third world governments started sending their brightest to the US engineering/science programs. These would stay through the PHD programs and then return home.

Costs of tuition rose because the foreign tuition was never a problem and it allowed the justification of higher costs across the board.

I do not now if this trend is continuing, but it makes sense.
The schools can keep the costs high because there is a steady supply of students that will pay for it. where the students get the funds is the key. Scholarships, family, self employment/savings or subsidies. The schools do not care where the $$s come from as long as they are there.

Foreign GOVERNMENTS paying students to study abroad ......you have got to be kidding me. Most of the funding comes from the schools own pockets and the pockets of foreign students. All masters and Phds are subsidized to some extent to almost every student whether international or local.

There are some schools that are the exception ( like biz schools or law schools) or even arts programs. Engineering programs are more or less self sufficient deriving money from NSF grants research grants etc.
Note that my description was from 30+years ago and the disclaimer that I did not know if it was happening now.

 

glugglug

Diamond Member
Jun 9, 2002
5,340
1
81
By the time there are any legislative changes (which I believe should be in the opposite direction from the OP), the issue will be long dead. Within 2 years, employers will stop seeking H1B's because the dollar will have depreciated so far as to negate any cost advantage.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Originally posted by: Genx87

If the govt is restricting the flow of labor then it isnt a free market. Internally the wages have gone up in all techical fields and yet the students arent flocking. I dont know the reasons but something tells me it may have something to do with the race to the bottom MTV effect.

It would be an internal free market. According to the theory, capitalism should still work even if an unlimited supply of foreign labor cannot access the market. After all, if the U.S. were an isolated island, free market economics should still lead to wealth.

For that matter, if those foreign laborers are impoverished as the result of socialism, then would allowing them to provide a subsidy for capital really be capitalism since their poverty was the result of socialism? Is merging the nation's economy with a socialist economy really still capitalism?

Mass immigration is really less about the nation's economic system and more about foreign policy. What's sad is that so many self-proclaimed "capitalists" and "free marketers" are afraid of having an insular American free market. For some reason they seem to think that having an infinite supply of labor relative to capital is a necessary part of the free market.

Because having the govt restrict the free market is no free market at all.

And having the economic ills of socialism inflicted on the nation by proxy is consistent with having a free market?
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Originally posted by: Wreckem
Originally posted by: BigDH01
There is no shortage of skilled American workers. As far as scientists go, we overproduce them. There is a shortage of cheap skilled American labor. This whole thing stems from a report from the NSF in the 80s I believe, and companies have continued to manipulate this perception in order to secure more H1Bs to depress wages.

Is that why most schools PhD programs in Science, Math, and Engineering are comprised of mostly foreign students? Some programs are over 75% foriegners. In Graduate programs in general americans are becoming the minority.

Ask yourself why there is a huge oversupply of Americans who want to become physicians and you'll start to gain a better understanding of the issue.

Also, in the science field, many of those foreigners are there to provide low-wage graduate student labor, which is what keeps academic science research going in this country. The number of graduate students (who do the research grunt work and who work as teaching assistants) is related to the short-sighted and myopic needs of academia and not the actual demands for PhDs in the market.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Originally posted by: BigDH01Either more foreigners come here with H1Bs or those jobs are simply shipped overseas. I just wish these companies would call it what it is. There are plenty of Americans to do the job, just not enough willing to do it as cheaply as they'd like.

The phenomenon that you describe does in fact have a name. It's called Global Labor Arbitrage.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,909
229
106
The H1B visa program is a scamming of American IT jobs any way you look at it. The H1B applicants are still getting jobs handcrafted for them five years after the scandals saw mainstream news and the Republicans brushed it away as if they were victims of some partisanship smear campaign. If the U.S. students cannot get the educations they need for the jobs then the system is broken. I see the need for steering college students into different programs to fill jobs for American companies. Using foreigners to block these students from ever getting these jobs is simply a bad idea.

Quite frankly projects like Windows Vista and Office 2007 just show the lack of genuine quality being pumped into American software projects by foreigners hired by the likes of Microsoft abusing the whole H1B visa program to begin with. These companies don't care about the product anymore. They just want to perpetuate their market monopolies using the cheapest labor available.
 

neodyn55

Senior member
Oct 16, 2007
230
2
0
Originally posted by: MadRat
The H1B visa program is a scamming of American IT jobs any way you look at it. The H1B applicants are still getting jobs handcrafted for them five years after the scandals saw mainstream news and the Republicans brushed it away as if they were victims of some partisanship smear campaign. If the U.S. students cannot get the educations they need for the jobs then the system is broken. I see the need for steering college students into different programs to fill jobs for American companies. Using foreigners to block these students from ever getting these jobs is simply a bad idea.

Quite frankly projects like Windows Vista and Office 2007 just show the lack of genuine quality being pumped into American software projects by foreigners hired by the likes of Microsoft abusing the whole H1B visa program to begin with. These companies don't care about the product anymore. They just want to perpetuate their market monopolies using the cheapest labor available.

You lack of knowledge of current affairs, from the mechanisms of the H1 visa to the complexity of large piece of software is appalling. Instead of addressing the core of the problems, your placing the blame of the failures on foreigners makes you look nothing short of xenophobic.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
My answer is we do not need H1B Visas. Make the Corporations invest in educating and hiring Americans.
 

MonkeyK

Golden Member
May 27, 2001
1,396
8
81
Originally posted by: MonkeyK
Originally posted by: Genx87
Liberal arts, liberal sciences. I dont make up the degree's at these universities.

With all of you ranting we are spending billions on education at the federal and state level. 50 cents of every dollar in MN's state budget is spent on education. Dont give me any hogwash about education getting short changed.

50%? that's outrageous, can you back it up with something? How does this compare to other states?

cause I'm pretty sure that you picked the number out of your butt.
 

maverick44

Member
Aug 9, 2007
111
0
0
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Originally posted by: Wreckem
Originally posted by: BigDH01
There is no shortage of skilled American workers. As far as scientists go, we overproduce them. There is a shortage of cheap skilled American labor. This whole thing stems from a report from the NSF in the 80s I believe, and companies have continued to manipulate this perception in order to secure more H1Bs to depress wages.

Is that why most schools PhD programs in Science, Math, and Engineering are comprised of mostly foreign students? Some programs are over 75% foriegners. In Graduate programs in general americans are becoming the minority.

Ask yourself why there is a huge oversupply of Americans who want to become physicians and you'll start to gain a better understanding of the issue.

Also, in the science field, many of those foreigners are there to provide low-wage graduate student labor, which is what keeps academic science research going in this country. The number of graduate students (who do the research grunt work and who work as teaching assistants) is related to the short-sighted and myopic needs of academia and not the actual demands for PhDs in the market.

Ask yourself why so many americans have been priced out of decent healthcare and you will have your answer.

It is really sad to see people in this country being able to afford PCs and write idiotic comments on AT and yet not be able to afford the medicines they need or the doctors.

Low wage graduate student labor..... so what exactly isnt low wage for you. Do you expect to be able to have 100,000 a yr job just by being an american
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,909
229
106
Originally posted by: neodyn55
You lack of knowledge of current affairs, from the mechanisms of the H1 visa to the complexity of large piece of software is appalling. Instead of addressing the core of the problems, your placing the blame of the failures on foreigners makes you look nothing short of xenophobic.

Oh great wise one, show all of us the way. I watched a railroad largely self-destruct its IT department on the premise they could hire enough H1B's and offshore programmers to take over the work. Unfortunately the foreigners could never succeed because they have no access to the nuts & bolts of the database details they needed to get their job done. Giving them access would of been a grave breach of national security which didn't occur to the nimwits driving the decisions until after 9/11. Lots of over middle aged hacks filled the high end jobs. Young people and foreigners filled the low end. And the middle was a revolving door due to the glass ceiling imposed by desperate old people intent on making it through to their retirement party.

The baby boomers and their glass ceiling weren't what were causing the division in the IT department, though, it was the foreigners cutting off jobs that Americans wanted and the top brass wouldn't let them have. People were willing to work for the depressed wages if they could have the jobs they wanted. Unfortunately upper management couldn't let them have those jobs because the boys club upstairs was hell bent on hiring H1B visas. Think about it, they hired these foreigners at half the pay, crafted jobs around training that couldn't be obtained in the states, paid absolutely nothing for their paperwork in applying for the H1B visa program, and then can fire them on a whim without as much as a single ounce of repercussion. Its the stock manipulators wet dream.
 

maverick44

Member
Aug 9, 2007
111
0
0
Originally posted by: MadRat
Originally posted by: neodyn55
You lack of knowledge of current affairs, from the mechanisms of the H1 visa to the complexity of large piece of software is appalling. Instead of addressing the core of the problems, your placing the blame of the failures on foreigners makes you look nothing short of xenophobic.

Oh great wise one, show all of us the way. I watched a railroad largely self-destruct its IT department on the premise they could hire enough H1B's and offshore programmers to take over the work. Unfortunately the foreigners could never succeed because they have no access to the nuts & bolts of the database details they needed to get their job done. Giving them access would of been a grave breach of national security which didn't occur to the nimwits driving the decisions until after 9/11. Lots of over middle aged hacks filled the high end jobs. Young people and foreigners filled the low end. And the middle was a revolving door due to the glass ceiling imposed by desperate old people intent on making it through to their retirement party.

The baby boomers and their glass ceiling weren't what were causing the division in the IT department, though, it was the foreigners cutting off jobs that Americans wanted and the top brass wouldn't let them have. People were willing to work for the depressed wages if they could have the jobs they wanted. Unfortunately upper management couldn't let them have those jobs because the boys club upstairs was hell bent on hiring H1B visas. Think about it, they hired these foreigners at half the pay, crafted jobs around training that couldn't be obtained in the states, paid absolutely nothing for their paperwork in applying for the H1B visa program, and then can fire them on a whim without as much as a single ounce of repercussion. Its the stock manipulators wet dream.


That is the failure of management of not managing an offshore project effectively.

Secondly, you talk as if this is a new phenomenon. "offshoring" was done long before microsoft and google even started. If i remember correctly it was done way back in the 1970s. Back then it was called simple trade.

Much is made about outsourcing these days simply because of the dot com bubble and how it artificially raised salaries for everyone in the IT world. And how a degree in compsci was perceived as a path to instant riches by everyone.

Secondly you rant against old people against young people against middle management and against upper management. Should all the work have been done by YOU alone on the project.

 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: MadRat
Originally posted by: neodyn55
You lack of knowledge of current affairs, from the mechanisms of the H1 visa to the complexity of large piece of software is appalling. Instead of addressing the core of the problems, your placing the blame of the failures on foreigners makes you look nothing short of xenophobic.

Oh great wise one, show all of us the way. I watched a railroad largely self-destruct its IT department on the premise they could hire enough H1B's and offshore programmers to take over the work. Unfortunately the foreigners could never succeed because they have no access to the nuts & bolts of the database details they needed to get their job done. Giving them access would of been a grave breach of national security which didn't occur to the nimwits driving the decisions until after 9/11. Lots of over middle aged hacks filled the high end jobs. Young people and foreigners filled the low end. And the middle was a revolving door due to the glass ceiling imposed by desperate old people intent on making it through to their retirement party.

The baby boomers and their glass ceiling weren't what were causing the division in the IT department, though, it was the foreigners cutting off jobs that Americans wanted and the top brass wouldn't let them have. People were willing to work for the depressed wages if they could have the jobs they wanted. Unfortunately upper management couldn't let them have those jobs because the boys club upstairs was hell bent on hiring H1B visas. Think about it, they hired these foreigners at half the pay, crafted jobs around training that couldn't be obtained in the states, paid absolutely nothing for their paperwork in applying for the H1B visa program, and then can fire them on a whim without as much as a single ounce of repercussion. Its the stock manipulators wet dream.

Heh, sounds like someone who cannot hack it in the IT industry and compete with quality foreign programmers rants and spreading FUD on the Internet. If you know anything about H1B visa process, you'd know company have to report the wage when hiring an H1B worker, and that wage cannot be lower then the prevailing industry wage. And maybe the application fee itself is not much, but you need to hire immigration lawyers to handle all the paper work and possible government audit, and that is not cheap. Go look at Monster.com and see how many tech positions outright state they won't deal with anyone who needs sponsorship. If like you said, H1B is stock manipulators' wet dream, why 80%+ position won't even wanna touch it?

I want to make it absolutely clear. There is a huge difference between foreigner's who study here in the US, trying to get a job via H1B, and want to stay here permanently, and those offshore companies using H1B for their local employees to come to the US for projects.

Go ask every green card holder who obtain green card through company sponsorship the kind of visa they used in the beginning, 95% would tell you they started with H1B visa. H1B visa used correctly attracts highly educated people to the US who will contribute tremendously to the US economy. The IT job unemployment rate is at ~2%, that's way below the natural unemployment rate lots economists estimate at 4%. That means the IT industry pretty much operates at better then full employment, so using H1B visa in the IT industry does not take away American job. I graduated from a top 10 engineering school 10 years back and most people had multiple offers before they graduate, I believe it's still the same right now.

H1B visa is a good thing, and I cannot stress enough, if used correctly. Stop making stupid generalization if you don't know or never been involved in the process. What politician need to do is make sure it is not abused and mis-used by the offshore companies and take away opportunities from skilled people who want to stay and contribute in the US.
 

fornax

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
6,866
0
76
Originally posted by: rchiu
Heh, sounds like someone who cannot hack it in the IT industry and compete with quality foreign programmers rants and spreading FUD on the Internet. If you know anything about H1B visa process, you'd know company have to report the wage when hiring an H1B worker, and that wage cannot be lower then the prevailing industry wage. And maybe the application fee itself is not much, but you need to hire immigration lawyers to handle all the paper work and possible government audit, and that is not cheap. Go look at Monster.com and see how many tech positions outright state they won't deal with anyone who needs sponsorship. If like you said, H1B is stock manipulators' wet dream, why 80%+ position won't even wanna touch it?

I want to make it absolutely clear. There is a huge difference between foreigner's who study here in the US, trying to get a job via H1B, and want to stay here permanently, and those offshore companies using H1B for their local employees to come to the US for projects.

Go ask every green card holder who obtain green card through company sponsorship the kind of visa they used in the beginning, 95% would tell you they started with H1B visa. H1B visa used correctly attracts highly educated people to the US who will contribute tremendously to the US economy. The IT job unemployment rate is at ~2%, that's way below the natural unemployment rate lots economists estimate at 4%. That means the IT industry pretty much operates at better then full employment, so using H1B visa in the IT industry does not take away American job. I graduated from a top 10 engineering school 10 years back and most people had multiple offers before they graduate, I believe it's still the same right now.

H1B visa is a good thing, and I cannot stress enough, if used correctly. Stop making stupid generalization if you don't know or never been involved in the process. What politician need to do is make sure it is not abused and mis-used by the offshore companies and take away opportunities from skilled people who want to stay and contribute in the US.

You don't believe that BS that you've written, do you? It is obvious that you either don't have a clue how the H1B visa process works (from the point of view of the employers), or you are seriously distorting the truth. I've sat on meetings where the management had to craft the ads and qualifications so as to minimize the chance that a "local" could apply for the job. Trust me, this is the norm. Only the stupid get caught (like iGate Mastech recently whose ads basically said "no locals need to apply") who don't know how to play the system, or don't bother. Prevailing industry wage? Ha-ha, that was a good joke. Any 2nd year law student or a manager with 2 brain cells know how to get around that.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: fornax

You don't believe that BS that you've written, do you? It is obvious that you either don't have a clue how the H1B visa process works (from the point of view of the employers), or you are seriously distorting the truth. I've sat on meetings where the management had to craft the ads and qualifications so as to minimize the chance that a "local" could apply for the job. Trust me, this is the norm. Only the stupid get caught (like iGate Mastech recently whose ads basically said "no locals need to apply") who don't know how to play the system, or don't bother. Prevailing industry wage? Ha-ha, that was a good joke. Any 2nd year law student or a manager with 2 brain cells know how to get around that.

I don't know what kind of sneaky unethical company you work for and the idiotic management meeting you sit in. But your company is either stupid or short sighted trying to cut corners and pay lower salary to get around the law. I can only speak for my own experience, two companies (both fortune 100) that sponsored my H1B followed laws and paid good salary.

Sure there will be companies trying to get around H1B Laws, just like there are companies going for tax evasion, defrauding investors and all those good stuff, but it doesn't mean the law doesn't exist or it's not being followed and enforced.

And it's stupid for companies trying to get around the law, you not only risk getting caught, you mistreat your own employee who is your company's most important asset. How much are you gonna save, 10, 20k a year? If your company short change your h1b employee, they won't be around for long, they will either find someone who treat them right or get the heck out the minute they get more permanent status. The turn around, the training to replace those skill/experienced employee, not to mention the low moral and low job satisfaction leading to low performance will be much costlier then those 10/20k you save. Like I said, H1B used correctly, meaning as the first step to get foreign CS/Engineering students to join your company on a long term, permanet basis, is not only necessary, but good for America. Shitty companies like yours who are short sighted and misued the system ruin it for everyone.
 

fornax

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
6,866
0
76
So I was right. You have no clue how employers do H1B visas, because you were the recipient of one. And an H1B cannot "find someone who treat them right" for three to six years. Even after that most of them need the company for the GC. While there are many companies that go by the spirit (and not only the letter) of the law, so many started abusing the rules that the limits were introduced.

Make no mistake, in 80% the H1Bs get here because they can do the same stuff cheaper, work longer hours and behave themselves: perfect salaried slaves. In about 20% the H1Bs truly can do stuff that few locals can do. In the case of software development, this is like 5%. Many H1Bs are scientists (postdocs and young professors), entertainers, sportsmen, etc - most of them are unique so getting an H1B is not an abuse.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: fornax
So I was right. You have no clue how employers do H1B visas, because you were the recipient of one. And an H1B cannot "find someone who treat them right" for three to six years. Even after that most of them need the company for the GC. While there are many companies that go by the spirit (and not only the letter) of the law, so many started abusing the rules that the limits were introduced.

Make no mistake, in 80% the H1Bs get here because they can do the same stuff cheaper, work longer hours and behave themselves: perfect salaried slaves. In about 20% the H1Bs truly can do stuff that few locals can do. In the case of software development, this is like 5%. Many H1Bs are scientists (postdocs and young professors), entertainers, sportsmen, etc - most of them are unique so getting an H1B is not an abuse.

So what if I was the recipient of H1B? I know what salary I got and I know what the industry average is, and what my American classmates were getting when I graduated. And I know my boss did't treat me like a slave and I was treated like any other American co-workers/friend I got. I have a good co-worker friend, an American with 20+ years in the company I worked for, and when I left the company, we talked about our salary and he was surprised that mine (6 years exp) was higher then his because of my unique skill. (ERP implementation+MBA).

And your statement H1B cannot change job for 3 to 6 year just showed how ignorant you are. Once you have H1B, you can apply for transfer to move to a new employer. When you apply for transfer, you are not limited by the cap, so as long as the new employer is willing to sponsor you, it can be done easily.

And your claim that 80% H1B get here because we are perfect salaried slave is pure BS. Most of us get our job because of our skills and background. And yes, most of us work hard and respect/loyal to our company, that's how people succeed in this business world, H1B or not. You people who think you can just sit there contribute nothing and get paid, well too bad that we offer some competition. In the end, we contribute to the American society, I paid taxes on my 6 digit salary and raise a good family. I have dual master degree in engineering and business, and I offer American companies my skill and experience. And what do you offer other then complaining and try to stop good people from joining the American society?
 

maverick44

Member
Aug 9, 2007
111
0
0
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: fornax
So I was right. You have no clue how employers do H1B visas, because you were the recipient of one. And an H1B cannot "find someone who treat them right" for three to six years. Even after that most of them need the company for the GC. While there are many companies that go by the spirit (and not only the letter) of the law, so many started abusing the rules that the limits were introduced.

Make no mistake, in 80% the H1Bs get here because they can do the same stuff cheaper, work longer hours and behave themselves: perfect salaried slaves. In about 20% the H1Bs truly can do stuff that few locals can do. In the case of software development, this is like 5%. Many H1Bs are scientists (postdocs and young professors), entertainers, sportsmen, etc - most of them are unique so getting an H1B is not an abuse.

So what if I was the recipient of H1B? I know what salary I got and I know what the industry average is, and what my American classmates were getting when I graduated. And I know my boss did't treat me like a slave and I was treated like any other American co-workers/friend I got. I have a good co-worker friend, an American with 20+ years in the company I worked for, and when I left the company, we talked about our salary and was surprised that mine (6 years exp) was higher then his because of my unique skill. (ERP implementation+MBA).

And your statement H1B cannot change job for 3 to 6 year just showed how ignorant you are. Once you have H1B, you can apply for transfer to move to a new employer. When you apply for transfer, you are not limited by the cap, so as long as the new employer is willing to sponsor you, it can be done easily.

And your claim that 80% H1B get here because we are perfect salaried slave is pure BS. Most of us get our job because of our skills and background. And yes, most of us work hard and respect/loyal to our company, that's how people succeed in this business world, H1B or not. You people who think you can just sit there contribute nothing and get paid, well too bad that we offer some competition. In the end, we contribute to the American society, I paid taxes on my 6 digit salary and raise a good family. I have dual master degree in engineering and business, and I offer American companies my skill and experience. And what do you offer other then complaining and try to stop good people from joining the American society?

:thumbsup:

 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
the exclusion of H1Bs on Monster and other job boards is because the clients are doing work directly or as a sub on a government contract.

Those contracts usually require US citizenship and/or residence.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,909
229
106
Seems like the two that used H1B's were the only two left standing at the end of the argument. *cricket sounds*

Must of ran the rest of the locals out.

Seriously, rchiu, you haven't made an argument against mine other than to say you benefited so it cannot be bad. That isn't very convincing.
 

Excelsior

Lifer
May 30, 2002
19,048
18
81
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Originally posted by: Genx87

Because there arent enough U.S workers to fill the position.

Why not allow American free market forces to fix the problem instead of providing businesses with a socialist-like subsidy of low-cost foreign labor?

In a free market, if there were a shortage of Americans in a certain field, wages would go up and then people would rush to obtain the necessary training for that field.

Ever wonder why so many people climb all over each other to get into medical school? Because we place an artificial limit on the number of MDs we produce, essentially turning becoming a physician into a guarantor of social status and economic success. The market works--if people think they'll be able to earn a good, secure living in a certain field, they'll rush into it. So let an internal American free market work.

Or we could fix the immigration system.