Honest expectations for Haswell integrated graphics?

[Ice_Dragon]

It obviously won't be a 650M, so maybe a 640M or 640M LE?

 

[Lonyo]

Which GT650M will it be slower than?
There are 3 different models, Intel could have compared it to the slowest (most probable scenario) and it might be competitive with that, but fall behind the faster GT650M.

The 640M is just a lower clocked 650/660, while the 640 LE is one of two different GPUs, Fermi or Kepler, so it's kind of a silly question to ask which NV mobile chip it compares to, when even amongs the 3 you listed there are at least 6 variations.

 

[Ice_Dragon]

How much of a substantial difference is there with 650M with DDR3 memory vs. GDDR5 memory?

 

[Enigmoid]

If they get even gt 630m levels it will beat trinity significantly.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5831/amd-trinity-review-a10-4600m-a-new-hope/6

 

[blastingcap]

2.5x the speed of a 5570

 

[MrK6]

If they can hit GT640M speeds on integrated graphics I will buy a new laptop. Intel CPU performance and battery life with decent GPU performance would be killer. AMD and nvidia should be very nervous.

 

[frozentundra123456]

If they can hit GT640M speeds on integrated graphics I will buy a new laptop. Intel CPU performance and battery life with decent GPU performance would be killer. AMD and nvidia should be very nervous.

Unfortunately I dont see this happening. That would be at least twice the performance of HD4000, and since HD4000 was already a big increase, I cant see it happening. Granted it would be really nice, but seems unlikely. Maybe something like a GT630M which is a rebadged GT540M.

It would also depend on price, since you can get a lenovo Y580 with a GT650M for less than 900.00 most of the time on the Lenovo website.

Just seems like whenever a new generation of igps comes out, everyone touts as to how great the performance will be, but so far they have turned out to be mediocre at best.

 

[frozentundra123456]

How much of a substantial difference is there with 650M with DDR3 memory vs. GDDR5 memory?

I believe they are fairly similar, because the DDR3 version for some strange reason is clocked higher, but the DDR5 is less limited by the 128 bit memory bus. You might be able to overclock the DDR5 version though, if thermal constraints permit.

 

[SPBHM]

2.5x the speed of a 5570

the 5570 is clearly faster than the (desktop)hd4000

2.5x sounds to optimistic, considering desktop will only get GT2, and GT3 will be combined with slower CPUs and lower clock

I believe they are fairly similar, because the DDR3 version for some strange reason is clocked higher, but the DDR5 is less limited by the 128 bit memory bus. You might be able to overclock the DDR5 version though, if thermal constraints permit.

DDR5 makes a huge difference

 

[frozentundra123456]

the 5570 is clearly faster than the (desktop)hd4000

2.5x sounds to optimistic, considering desktop will only get GT2, and GT3 will be combined with slower CPUs and lower clock



DDR5 makes a huge difference

Normally I would agree with you about DDR5. I am just basing my statement on Notebook Check. net which says the DDR5 version should be "similarly fast" as the DDR 3 version.
Edit: I think it might depend on the game, whether it is bandwidth limited or not.

 

[Ventanni]

How much of a substantial difference is there with 650M with DDR3 memory vs. GDDR5 memory?

It's pretty big. Both Nvidia and AMD often, although not always, differentiate their midrange and performance level mobile architectures by essentially utilizing the same, yet higher clocked cores, and pairing them with DDR5 memory. I say not always though, as depending on the laptop you're buying, you might get a different version (like, completely different core) of the same mobile graphics chip found on another laptop brand. I think AMD is a little better than Nvidia about this, but both simply see these segments as performance targets, and they'll mix and match cores with varying memory speeds to meet those performance targets.

 

[Ventanni]

To better understand what I'm getting at, look at the mobile GPU charts for the Geforce 500m and 600m found on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Nvidia_graphics_processing_units#GeForce_500_Series

I think we're all intelligent enough to read a GPU spec sheet, so you'll see, especially for the case like the Geforce 555m and 650m, where the moniker can be any one of three different GPU/RAM combinations. It's confusing, but in this case, until we get the actual benchmarks on Haswell, we won't know which 650m Intel compared their latest and greatest to.

With that said, having gamed a bit on my 540m, if Haswell can keep up with at least that level of performance, then I'm sure we'll all be pretty happy.

 

[Piroko]

Are we talking about Benchmarks with low CPU load or games where the CPU will fight with the GPU for TDP headroom? IVB can already throttle quite badly on some Notebooks when stressed and I don't expect Haswell to be a miracle in performance per Watt, since it's on the same process...

I would expect GT3 to be competitive with GT640m in Benchmarks, but actual gaming performance to vary wildly between Notebookdesigns, on average probably a lot closer to a GT630m. The GT2 might duke it out with the higher end Trinity parts though both in Benches and actual games.

 

[Fx1]

Dream on Haswell wont get near a 650M GT with DDR5 or DDR3. Turn those games up to 1080p and see who wins x768 is to much CPU.

 

[Borealis7]

Dream on Haswell wont get near a 650M GT with DDR5 or DDR3. Turn those games up to 1080p and see who wins x768 is to much CPU.

but that's exactly the target audience for these chips - mobile gaming.

you didnt hear it from me but...an Intel engineer on the Haswell GPU team from Haifa (Israel) has told me a long time ago that it's going to be a big improvement and 2x performance is not out of the question.
I tend to believe him. (he is family afterall...)
on the other hand, no GT3 for desktop so it'll only benefit mobile gamers.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Dont confuse desktop and mobile parts.

 

[zebrax2]

Any info out there on how Haswell is suppose to alleviate the bandwidth problem?

Edit:
I'm guessing this has to do with it

 

[Eureka]

If we're comparing it to dedicated chips, where did IB's IGP stand?

 

[IntelUser2000]

If we're comparing it to dedicated chips, where did IB's IGP stand?

On the mobile side, its roughly comparable to the 610M.

What's interesting though:
-HD 4000 has nearly double the bandwidth with DC DDR3-1600 offering 25.6GB/s bandwidth versus 610M's 14.4GB/s**
-HD 4000 has more than double the Flops with 307GFlops @ 1.2GHz versus 610M's 142GFlops
-However, the Texture Fillrate is not much far away between the two, with the HD 4000 having 9.6GTexels/s and 610M having 7.2GTexels/s. There's also an addendum to that.*

*While theoretical texture fillrate is decently higher on the HD 4000, it stays further away from theoretical in actual measurements compared to the predecessor HD 3000. That suggests the TMUs may be clocked asynchronously to the main clock, perhaps at ~85% of the speed.
**Traditional scaling shows an unofficial rule of thumb to bandwidth and performance relationship of 30% for every 100% increase in memory bandwidth. Chipset based IGPs generally performed 30% lower than discrete counterparts despite having the same theoretical bandwidth. Perhaps the nature of sharing with the CPU makes the practical usable bandwidth 50% of the theoretical on the iGPUs compared to the discrete parts. That means HD 4000 with DC DDR3-1600 and 610M may in fact have similar bandwidth as well.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6332/amd-trinity-a10-5800k-a8-5600k-review-part-1/7

 

[Ice_Dragon]

Has there been any new news that I may have missed on Haswell's graphics?

 

[Borealis7]

wait 3 months and 1 week to find out

 

[Ice_Dragon]

So knowing what we know now, what do you all think?

 

[R0H1T]

If they can hit GT640M speeds on integrated graphics I will buy a new laptop. Intel CPU performance and battery life with decent GPU performance would be killer. AMD and nvidia should be very nervous.

Expect the prices of such parts to go through the roof as well, the processor itself should cost upwards of 500$ i.e. GT3e based parts & the laptop overall ought to be around that 1500~2000$ range !

 

[Lepton87]

How much of a substantial difference is there with 650M with DDR3 memory vs. GDDR5 memory?

I have a laptop with 660M and my brother has a laptop with 650M DDR3, the core clock is the same. After overclocking both, his laptop was just about 15% slower, even though I had over 100GB/s of bandwidth and he had about 30GB/s. My memory overclocked by 25%, his oced by about 15%, it still provided much better gains. 384 Cuda cores are not enough to utilize that much bandwidth, percentage-wise my memory OCed much better but it didn't result in any significant gain in performance, because the GPU, even overclocked by +135MHz already had a lot of bandwidth for its needs. Before OC the difference in performance was higher something on the order of 20-25%. The core clocks were identical, both laptops were locked to limit core overclocking by +135MHz. All the tests were done at 1080p resolution. It makes sense, 100GB/s of bandwidth for 384 cores is a lot, GTX680 has 1536Cuda cores and 192GB/s of bandwidth, it's bandwidth limited but not to a very excessive degree. GTX680 has 125MB/s of bandwidth per cuda core, overclocked 660m has 260MB/s and non overclocked has 210MB/s.
ps. If anyone knows if there is an unlocked BIOS for free download for MSI GE70 I would appreciate it. I only found someone selling such a BIOS.