Homeopathy and the placebo effect - is it ever ok to condone ignorance?

Vageetasjn

Senior member
Jan 5, 2003
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My mother is a long-time user of homeopathic products (what I call "sugar pills"). For purposes of this thread, I want to limit the discussion of homeopathy to those products which are diluted to the point that they contain no active ingredients (other than perhaps sugar and water). Herbal medicines, unlike homeopathy, are recognized to sometimes have very real scientific legitimacy.

While my mother is rational in all other modes of thought and would never rely on homeopathies for a serious condition such as a broken leg or heart attack, she still spends real money on these products because she believes they provide a tangible health benefit.

MY QUESTION is should I bother to convince her of the scientific worthlessness of homeopathies if that means she will lose the placebo effect?
 

xSauronx

Lifer
Jul 14, 2000
19,582
4
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my brother gouged his finger the other day in the kitchen...and was going to fill the wound with pepper and wrap it up instead of using a disinfectant or something similar

i dont even bother arguing with that.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
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The biggest problem drug companies face now is the placbo almost does as well in testing many times as the drug itself.
 

D1gger

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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My mother is a long-time user of homeopathic products (what I call "sugar pills"). For purposes of this thread, I want to limit the discussion of homeopathy to those products which are diluted to the point that they contain no active ingredients (other than perhaps sugar and water). Herbal medicines, unlike homeopathy, are recognized to sometimes have very real scientific legitimacy.

While my mother is rational in all other modes of thought and would never rely on homeopathies for a serious condition such as a broken leg or heart attack, she still spends real money on these products because she believes they provide a tangible health benefit.

MY QUESTION is should I bother to convince her of the scientific worthlessness of homeopathies if that means she will lose the placebo effect?

If it works for her, and she is receiving a benefit, how is that worthless?

By the way, I agree that homeopathy is not based on real science, but the placebo effect can be real for some people.
 

Gigantopithecus

Diamond Member
Dec 14, 2004
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MY QUESTION is should I bother to convince her of the scientific worthlessness of homeopathies if that means she will lose the placebo effect?

No, absolutely not. As long as her use of homeopathic medicine/snake oil isn't hurting her (you said she wouldn't use homeopathy to treat something like a heart attack), then let her be. Everyone spends money on personal indulgences - I'm sure you spend your money on shit she thinks is a waste, too, and you wouldn't want her on your case about it.
 

Vageetasjn

Senior member
Jan 5, 2003
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The cost to her I mostly care about is the warped view of reality. The money is also a cost, but a smaller one. If she's really benefiting from the placebo effect, then couldn't she get the same effect by having knowledge that the human body can cure itself of the many minor ills she credits homeopathy for curing? I don't know the answer to that.
 

crashtestdummy

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2010
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It depends on what you are trying to accomplish with the placebo. Placebos will often soften symptoms in patients, but they don't fix systemic problems. In other words, if someone has the flu and wants to take an herbal remedy to feel better, more power to them. The flu isn't likely to kill them, and the doctor likely won't give them anything if they are otherwise healthy, anyway. Similarly, someone who is terminally ill should be entitled to whatever they damn well please, including illegal drugs.

I wouldn't use such things to avoid infection (as above) or treat cancer, however. The trick is that permitting ignorance in purely symptomatic cases leads to ignorance with regards to systemic problems. Telling someone they should believe hokey folk medicine can make them feel better, but then explaining to them why it doesn't actually make them any better won't produce the desired result.
 

Gigantopithecus

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Dec 14, 2004
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Placebos Are Getting More Effective. Drugmakers Are Desperate to Know Why.
http://www.wired.com/medtech/drugs/magazine/17-09/ff_placebo_effect?currentPage=all

This is a great article, and the nail is hit right on the head here:
The blockbuster success of mood drugs in the '80s and '90s emboldened Big Pharma to promote remedies for a growing panoply of disorders that are intimately related to higher brain function. By attempting to dominate the central nervous system, Big Pharma gambled its future on treating ailments that have turned out to be particularly susceptible to the placebo effect.

We (science) simply doesn't understand physiology of the CNS well enough to be able to objectively quantify and meter response to treatment like we can with other types of illnesses and disorders. Got an infection? Culture a swab and it's swarming with bacteria. Take a Z-pack, a week later, those bacteria are gone from the culture. Got depression? Well shit, uhh, you don't feel happy? Take these Zoloft. A week later - how do you feel? Better, huh? I'm a scientist through and through, and I'm not a tinfoil-wearing conspiracy theorist, but "feelings" are not science.

How the hell do you quantify emotions? By measuring neurotransmitters? Those certainly play a role, but again, the systems are so much more complex - and more variable between individuals - than, say, a bacterial infection. We shouldn't be surprised that psychotropic drugs aren't as efficacious as traditional drugs - we don't even know how to appropriately measure their effects!
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
58,070
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If it works for her, and causes no harm, what difference does it make? At least homeopathic medicine won't cause side effects. You can't say that about big pharma, with even OTC medications sometimes causing life threatening injury.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
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We (science) simply doesn't understand physiology of the CNS well enough to be able to objectively quantify and meter response to treatment like we can with other types of illnesses and disorders. Got an infection? Culture a swab and it's swarming with bacteria. Take a Z-pack, a week later, those bacteria are gone from the culture. Got depression? Well shit, uhh, you don't feel happy? Take these Zoloft. A week later - how do you feel? Better, huh? I'm a scientist through and through, and I'm not a tinfoil-wearing conspiracy theorist, but "feelings" are not science.
We do know how to make people feel better, but doctors don't like handing that stuff out because they might get in a lot of trouble. Most of them are extremely addictive (because they actually do something).
depression --> amphetamine
attention problem --> amphetamine
low energy --> amphetamine
weight problem caused by low metabolism --> amphetamine
weight problem caused by eating too much --> amphetamine

Pretty much every minor CNS problem could be covered by maybe 2 or 3 families of drugs
-tryptamines (ahhh trippin balls!!)
-amphetamines (this family of drugs can do a lot of different things)
-bendodiazapines and barbiturates (calm you down)



How the hell do you quantify emotions?
You measure emotions by looking at how the body is behaving. You really can measure how stressed out someone is. Their skin is often cold, but it still sweats a lot. Relaxed white people have red/pink hands, but stressed out people have pale white hands. Stressed people often have cold feet. They shake or can't sit still for long periods of time. People walk stiffer when they are stressed out.

It's the same as being able to tell that someone is drunk or stoned. If you see a dude with enormous pupils, he's probably high on some type of serotonin drug like mdma, mushrooms, or LSD. A guy stumbling on the street is probably drunk. A guy walking like there's a stick in his ass is probably stressed out. People also get hicups a lot when they are stressed. People with depressed nervous systems tend to avoid eye contact, look down a lot, talk in a low voice.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,254
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my brother gouged his finger the other day in the kitchen...and was going to fill the wound with pepper and wrap it up instead of using a disinfectant or something similar

i dont even bother arguing with that.

lolwtf?

:D
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,254
30,241
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It's the same as being able to tell that someone is drunk or stoned. If you see a dude with enormous pupils, he's probably high on some type of serotonin drug like mdma, mushrooms, or LSD. A guy stumbling on the street is probably drunk. A guy walking like there's a stick in his ass is probably stressed out. People also get hicups a lot when they are stressed. People with depressed nervous systems tend to avoid eye contact, look down a lot, talk in a low voice.


:thumbsup:

One problem, though, is if you see a guy stumbling down the street and smelling of alcohol on his breath, he could very well be completely sober, yet on his way towards a diabetic coma.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,254
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No, absolutely not. As long as her use of homeopathic medicine/snake oil isn't hurting her (you said she wouldn't use homeopathy to treat something like a heart attack), then let her be. Everyone spends money on personal indulgences - I'm sure you spend your money on shit she thinks is a waste, too, and you wouldn't want her on your case about it.

yeah, I have to agree with this. It's pure foolishness, of course. But she isn't hurting herself. She could very likely convince herself that replacing her pain homeopathics with aspirin or whatever will have no affect on her.

She has convinced herself that this placebo is working for her--and placebos often do. She could just as easily do the reverse, and for all we know, could indeed be experiencing little to no pain mediation with real medication.

Either way she spends her money, she achieves the same effect.
 

nanette1985

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2005
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MY QUESTION is should I bother to convince her of the scientific worthlessness of homeopathies if that means she will lose the placebo effect?

As a mother, I say go for it if it makes you happy.

She's just going to humor you and go back to whatever works for her. But she'll be so proud of you for having such strong opinions - it'll remind her of when you used to think that Bert was sooo much cooler than Ernie and you'd have a tantrum when somebody disagreed with you. Awww.
 
Mar 11, 2004
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If it works for her, and causes no harm, what difference does it make? At least homeopathic medicine won't cause side effects. You can't say that about big pharma, with even OTC medications sometimes causing life threatening injury.

Actually, yes it can, I have no clue why you think this, although you seem to be more focused on the business aspect. There's plenty of cases of it and alternative medicine (people I know that buy into homeopathy will buy into pretty much any alternative medicine, so I don't even bother separating them) doing harm, although often the worst one is that people waste time on it while their real illness gets worse and so by the time they actually get real medical care they're in worse shape than they would have been.

See the people that killed themselves through frequent enemas.

If it works for her, and she is receiving a benefit, how is that worthless?

By the way, I agree that homeopathy is not based on real science, but the placebo effect can be real for some people.

No one is disputing placebo, the problem is placebo is more effective the more stupid you are (not saying only stupid people fall for placebo, but the more ignorant you are about the placebo and your illness the better your chances of it being effective), and well, the placebo isn't doing anything. Ailments that placebo "fixes" are minor things that just time alone can resolve (via your body fixing itself, or your mind getting out of stress mode). The placebo isn't doing shit, but people are convinced it is, and this breeds ignorance.

For many small things, like random headaches, absolutely, don't take medicine for it, just wait it out, relax, get a bit of exercise or drink or eat something. But don't take other shit and then claim it cured you and thus all "drugs" are bad and do nothing or only harm like way too many people seem to think.

Its amazing how little respect people have for the amazing things their body can do on its own. Its a good thing our brains can manage it without our conscious minds as we'd be fucked otherwise.

I'm mixed on opinion of doctors exploiting placebo. As long as they don't make their living around it, or make it a habit of using it all the time, but then, patients should also be willing to call bs if they think that. Likewise, doctors that just try to treat everything with prescriptions or other poor "medicine".
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
58,070
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Actually, yes it can, I have no clue why you think this, although you seem to be more focused on the business aspect.

I probably think that because I actually read the OP, which you seem to have failed to accomplish. There's plenty of cases of a lot of people playing Russian Roulette, but that doesn't have anything to do with the OP either....
 

Ruptga

Lifer
Aug 3, 2006
10,246
207
106
You should definitely try if she can afford real medicine. If all she can afford is placebo, don't ruin placebo for her.

BS about "it's her choice" and individual liberties are one thing when we're talking about parenting styles, wallpaper, music choices, etc. But we are talking about medicine, and there are objective standards for that.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
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Yes it should be banned. In fact it can be harmful if the substance isn't diluted enough. Such as the case with Zicam which caused scores of people to lose the ability to smell and "taste".
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,557
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What does it matter if the placebo works as well or better than the prescribed medication?

It seems like placebos have been working VERY well over the years...often better than the "real" drug they've replaced in tests. Why would you want to fuck that up for someone?
 
Mar 11, 2004
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I probably think that because I actually read the OP, which you seem to have failed to accomplish. There's plenty of cases of a lot of people playing Russian Roulette, but that doesn't have anything to do with the OP either....

You said homeopathic medicine does not have side effects. Maybe not go off tangent if you want people to just think you're talking specifically about something? So, what did your little "big pharma bad" statement have to do with the OP?

Nice pointless analogy about Russian Roulette. :rolleyes:
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
58,070
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You said homeopathic medicine does not have side effects. Maybe not go off tangent if you want people to just think you're talking specifically about something? So, what did your little "big pharma bad" statement have to do with the OP?

Nice pointless analogy about Russian Roulette. :rolleyes:

I'm not gonna do your reading for you. If you can't comprehend the OP, get someone else to help you....
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
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106
What does it matter if the placebo works as well or better than the prescribed medication?

It seems like placebos have been working VERY well over the years...often better than the "real" drug they've replaced in tests. Why would you want to fuck that up for someone?

When the placebo is encased in several hundred tons of bullshit and has a multi-million pound international industry of con-artists protecting it - as all homeopathy remedies do - then it matters a great deal.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
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Upfront Disclaimer: I am NOT a proponent or user of homeopathy.

If it works for her, and causes no harm, what difference does it make? At least homeopathic medicine won't cause side effects.
Actually, yes it can, I have no clue why you think this . . .

Maybe lxskllr thinks homeopathy causes no harm because the National Institutes of Health thinks so, too:

A systematic review found that homeopathic remedies in high dilution, taken under the supervision of trained professionals, are generally considered safe and unlikely to cause severe adverse reactions.

Liquid homeopathic remedies may contain alcohol. The FDA allows higher levels of alcohol in these remedies than it allows in conventional drugs. However, no adverse effects from alcohol levels have been reported to the FDA.

Homeopaths expect some of their patients to experience homeopathic aggravation (a temporary worsening of existing symptoms after taking a homeopathic prescription). Researchers have not found much evidence of this reaction in clinical studies; however, research on homeopathic aggravations is scarce.

Homeopathic remedies are not known to interfere with conventional drugs; however, if you are considering using homeopathic remedies, you should discuss this with your health care provider first.
people I know that buy into homeopathy will buy into pretty much any alternative medicine, so I don't even bother separating them

o_O

See the people that killed themselves through frequent enemas.
Enemas are not in any way homeopathic. They're not germane to this discussion.

You could decide to lump UFO belief in with homeopathy and then say something damning about UFO belief and it also wouldn't pertain.

Focus, son, focus! ;)

Conclusion:
I agree with the NIH, the best, most scientific, and most objective and trustworthy body on the subject in the US that homeopathy has never been proven to be harmful.

I also concur with the NIH on this:

Do not use homeopathy as a replacement for proven conventional care or to postpone seeing a doctor about a medical problem.
However, if you want to try something touted to prevent colds or your ease debilitating fear of frisbees and fire hydrants and can't be convinced not to, have at it, it's your money! :D