Home Theater Woes Part II

[KurskKnyaz]

I recommended to my friend that he purchase a Harmon Kardon AVR-146 receiver and Polk Audio RM6750 Surround Speakers this past Black Friday and I promised him clear and loud sound given that the receiver can put out 60W per channel and he will have 5 of those channels. I set the system up yesterday. The clarity is there but not the loudness. His POS Aiwa-class stereo sounds louder at 100W per speaker.

This is the hardware:

http://www.harmankardon.com/pr...prod=AVR%20146&sType=C
http://www.polkaudio.com/homea.../subsatsystems/rm6750/

When I went to the H/K web page I noticed this:

AVR 146
5.1-Channel A/V Receiver With HDMI? Switching
150W: 30 watts x 5 (All channels operating at full-rated power), THD <0.07%, 20Hz - 20kHz into 8 ohms
300W: 60 watts x 5, THD <0.07%, @1kHz into 8ohms

...so which is it?

My rational was that better speakers can produce morse sound with less power and these are great speakers with 60W going to each. Am I wrong or is there some setting in the reciever that I have to mess with? This is my first time doing this.

...also, I am running 16AWG wires. This gauge is thicker than necessary for the length i'm running the wires. How much power an I looking by running a thick gauge and how much power do I lose per foot of wire in general. Thanks for your help.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Well it depends on how you measure things to compare wattages.
Since the Aiwa type systems are very concerned with advertising wattage ratings (since that's seemingly how many people decide what system to get), the "100 watt" rating is probably a 1kHz rating and quite possibly even higher THD than the HK 1kHz spec. Maybe 10% THD even? If that's a 10%THD spec, the HK is probably able to put out roughly the same power output as the Aiwa system and in the normal range of only using a few watts, it should be doing a better job and producing cleaner power. HK is pretty much the best receiver company for producing accurate ratings of power output from their receivers.

There are several big factors that go into how loud the system is going to be.

-sensitivity (Polk calls this efficiency) of the speakers
-distance of the listening position from the speakers
-power output from the receiver

http://www.myhometheater.homes...com/splcalculator.html

You can play around in there to see how those three big factors along with placement and number of speakers have an impact on SPL capabilities.

As for "better speakers can produce morse sound with less power", that's not really a good rule of thumb. The sensitivity (efficiency) of the speaker is the biggest factor here. Also, there are physical limits to how much sound a small speaker can make before it's running into physical limits of its components and distortion starts to rise a lot and a ceiling of SPL is reached (especially in lower frequencies)

There are speakers with low and high efficiency at every pricepoint, so price isn't really a good indication of loudness at a given power level.

When you say the Aiwa is louder, are you going to max volume on the HK and the Aiwa, or something else?

Some things to keep in mind:
-A system with more distortion might sound louder
-A system might be emphasizing certain frequencies inaccurately and causing it to sound louder (boomy subwoofers, etc)
-If you're changing listening environments / seating positions / source material / etc., that's going to have a huge impact on the difference of sound at the listening position
-How loud are you playing the systems in terms of SPL? Without some sort of measurement, it's hard to say if there's something wrong with one of the systems, or if you're getting typical results from them

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz
I recommended to my friend that he purchase a Harmon Kardon AVR-146 receiver and Polk Audio RM6750 Surround Speakers this past Black Friday and I promised him clear and loud sound given that the receiver can put out 60W per channel and he will have 5 of those channels. I set the system up yesterday. The clarity is there but not the loudness. His POS Aiwa-class stereo sounds louder at 100W per speaker.

This is the hardware:

http://www.harmankardon.com/pr...prod=AVR%20146&sType=C
http://www.polkaudio.com/homea.../subsatsystems/rm6750/

When I went to the H/K web page I noticed this:

AVR 146
5.1-Channel A/V Receiver With HDMI? Switching
150W: 30 watts x 5 (All channels operating at full-rated power), THD <0.07%, 20Hz - 20kHz into 8 ohms
300W: 60 watts x 5, THD <0.07%, @1kHz into 8ohms

...so which is it?

My rational was that better speakers can produce morse sound with less power and these are great speakers with 60W going to each. Am I wrong or is there some setting in the reciever that I have to mess with? This is my first time doing this.

...also, I am running 16AWG wires. This gauge is thicker than necessary for the length i'm running the wires. How much power an I looking by running a thick gauge and how much power do I lose per foot of wire in general. Thanks for your help.

realistically, its the 30W per channel. However, the AIWA is not 100W per channel. Guaranteed.

How big of a room did he put this in? What volume level is his receiver set at?

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

From your other thread "no, my speakers set to half-way sound louder than his at half-way."

If you haven't calibrated each system's halfway point to a certain level, then they're going to be different.

"half-way" is pretty much arbitrary on these systems.

There's no standard between receivers and shelf systems that say manufacturers need to calibrate them to a certain level at a spot on the dial. Even between different receivers, you'd want to get them calibrated to a reference level on your own to give yourself an idea of how loud things are getting.

Turn the HK up some more

Just for example, before calibrating the receiver and pre-pros I've worked with, a comfortable listening level has differed by "20" or so divisions on the volume level scale (some measure it on a level of 0 to something, some have 0 as a "reference" point and go negative dB ratings for lower than that... and even then, you'll need to calibrate to actual "reference" at that 0 level to know where you are really)

 

[KurskKnyaz]

Originally posted by: PurdueRy

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz
I recommended to my friend that he purchase a Harmon Kardon AVR-146 receiver and Polk Audio RM6750 Surround Speakers this past Black Friday and I promised him clear and loud sound given that the receiver can put out 60W per channel and he will have 5 of those channels. I set the system up yesterday. The clarity is there but not the loudness. His POS Aiwa-class stereo sounds louder at 100W per speaker.

This is the hardware:

http://www.harmankardon.com/pr...prod=AVR%20146&sType=C
http://www.polkaudio.com/homea.../subsatsystems/rm6750/

When I went to the H/K web page I noticed this:

AVR 146
5.1-Channel A/V Receiver With HDMI? Switching
150W: 30 watts x 5 (All channels operating at full-rated power), THD <0.07%, 20Hz - 20kHz into 8 ohms
300W: 60 watts x 5, THD <0.07%, @1kHz into 8ohms

...so which is it?

My rational was that better speakers can produce morse sound with less power and these are great speakers with 60W going to each. Am I wrong or is there some setting in the reciever that I have to mess with? This is my first time doing this.

...also, I am running 16AWG wires. This gauge is thicker than necessary for the length i'm running the wires. How much power an I looking by running a thick gauge and how much power do I lose per foot of wire in general. Thanks for your help.

realistically, its the 30W per channel. However, the AIWA is not 100W per channel. Guaranteed.

How big of a room did he put this in? What volume level is his receiver set at?

he doesn't have an Iawa just some stereo system of similar quality that sounds louder than this H/K reciever on polk speakers, it is distorted as hell of course. he was expecting (and so was I) that the 300W of power would be louder than his old system and clearer. Why does H/K give two different power ratings? Is it 150W or 300W. I don't get it.

 

[KurskKnyaz]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
From your other thread "no, my speakers set to half-way sound louder than his at half-way."

If you haven't calibrated each system's halfway point to a certain level, then they're going to be different.

"half-way" is pretty much arbitrary on these systems.

There's no standard between receivers and shelf systems that say manufacturers need to calibrate them to a certain level at a spot on the dial. Even between different receivers, you'd want to get them calibrated to a reference level on your own to give yourself an idea of how loud things are getting.

Turn the HK up some more

Just for example, before calibrating the receiver and pre-pros I've worked with, a comfortable listening level has differed by "20" or so divisions on the volume level scale (some measure it on a level of 0 to something, some have 0 as a "reference" point and go negative dB ratings for lower than that... and even then, you'll need to calibrate to actual "reference" at that 0 level to know where you are really)

BTW how am I supposed to read that volume lever. It is usually at -25dB and can go up to +10dB. I know what decibels are but what are the + and - signs supposed to mean?

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
From your other thread "no, my speakers set to half-way sound louder than his at half-way."

If you haven't calibrated each system's halfway point to a certain level, then they're going to be different.

"half-way" is pretty much arbitrary on these systems.

There's no standard between receivers and shelf systems that say manufacturers need to calibrate them to a certain level at a spot on the dial. Even between different receivers, you'd want to get them calibrated to a reference level on your own to give yourself an idea of how loud things are getting.

Turn the HK up some more

Just for example, before calibrating the receiver and pre-pros I've worked with, a comfortable listening level has differed by "20" or so divisions on the volume level scale (some measure it on a level of 0 to something, some have 0 as a "reference" point and go negative dB ratings for lower than that... and even then, you'll need to calibrate to actual "reference" at that 0 level to know where you are really)

BTW how am I supposed to read that volume lever. It is usually at -25dB and can go up to +10dB. I know what decibels are but what are the + and - signs supposed to mean?

The idea is that you could calibrate your receiver's speaker trim levels so that "0" on the volume dial = an agreed upon reference volume level. For example, on my "Digital Video Essentials" calibration DVD, I have "0" on my system calibrated to 75dB for the test sounds on the calibration DVD.

If I want to listen to a movie "at reference", I set my system to "0" now that it's calibrated.

That's very very loud and I normally watch DVDs at -15dB from reference or so. That means that if I were to turn it up to 0dB, I'd be increasing the volume level of the movie by 15dB to get to that agreed upon "reference level".

Without knowing how loud your system is at "0" at your listening position with your particular speakers, there's no way for us to know how loud your system really is in terms of dB at a setting of "-25dB"

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
From your other thread "no, my speakers set to half-way sound louder than his at half-way."

If you haven't calibrated each system's halfway point to a certain level, then they're going to be different.

"half-way" is pretty much arbitrary on these systems.

There's no standard between receivers and shelf systems that say manufacturers need to calibrate them to a certain level at a spot on the dial. Even between different receivers, you'd want to get them calibrated to a reference level on your own to give yourself an idea of how loud things are getting.

Turn the HK up some more

Just for example, before calibrating the receiver and pre-pros I've worked with, a comfortable listening level has differed by "20" or so divisions on the volume level scale (some measure it on a level of 0 to something, some have 0 as a "reference" point and go negative dB ratings for lower than that... and even then, you'll need to calibrate to actual "reference" at that 0 level to know where you are really)

BTW how am I supposed to read that volume lever. It is usually at -25dB and can go up to +10dB. I know what decibels are but what are the + and - signs supposed to mean?

0dB = no attentuation to the signal coming in
-25dB = 25 dB of attenuation to the input signal
10dB = boost input signal by 10dB

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz

Originally posted by: PurdueRy

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz
I recommended to my friend that he purchase a Harmon Kardon AVR-146 receiver and Polk Audio RM6750 Surround Speakers this past Black Friday and I promised him clear and loud sound given that the receiver can put out 60W per channel and he will have 5 of those channels. I set the system up yesterday. The clarity is there but not the loudness. His POS Aiwa-class stereo sounds louder at 100W per speaker.

This is the hardware:

http://www.harmankardon.com/pr...prod=AVR%20146&sType=C
http://www.polkaudio.com/homea.../subsatsystems/rm6750/

When I went to the H/K web page I noticed this:

AVR 146
5.1-Channel A/V Receiver With HDMI? Switching
150W: 30 watts x 5 (All channels operating at full-rated power), THD <0.07%, 20Hz - 20kHz into 8 ohms
300W: 60 watts x 5, THD <0.07%, @1kHz into 8ohms

...so which is it?

My rational was that better speakers can produce morse sound with less power and these are great speakers with 60W going to each. Am I wrong or is there some setting in the reciever that I have to mess with? This is my first time doing this.

...also, I am running 16AWG wires. This gauge is thicker than necessary for the length i'm running the wires. How much power an I looking by running a thick gauge and how much power do I lose per foot of wire in general. Thanks for your help.

realistically, its the 30W per channel. However, the AIWA is not 100W per channel. Guaranteed.

How big of a room did he put this in? What volume level is his receiver set at?

he doesn't have an Iawa just some stereo system of similar quality that sounds louder than this H/K reciever on polk speakers, it is distorted as hell of course. he was expecting (and so was I) that the 300W of power would be louder than his old system and clearer. Why does H/K give two different power ratings? Is it 150W or 300W. I don't get it.

They give two power ratings because the 150W rating is honest. The 300W matches the way most manufacturer's rate their product.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz

Originally posted by: PurdueRy

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz
I recommended to my friend that he purchase a Harmon Kardon AVR-146 receiver and Polk Audio RM6750 Surround Speakers this past Black Friday and I promised him clear and loud sound given that the receiver can put out 60W per channel and he will have 5 of those channels. I set the system up yesterday. The clarity is there but not the loudness. His POS Aiwa-class stereo sounds louder at 100W per speaker.

This is the hardware:

http://www.harmankardon.com/pr...prod=AVR%20146&sType=C
http://www.polkaudio.com/homea.../subsatsystems/rm6750/

When I went to the H/K web page I noticed this:

AVR 146
5.1-Channel A/V Receiver With HDMI? Switching
150W: 30 watts x 5 (All channels operating at full-rated power), THD <0.07%, 20Hz - 20kHz into 8 ohms
300W: 60 watts x 5, THD <0.07%, @1kHz into 8ohms

...so which is it?

My rational was that better speakers can produce morse sound with less power and these are great speakers with 60W going to each. Am I wrong or is there some setting in the reciever that I have to mess with? This is my first time doing this.

...also, I am running 16AWG wires. This gauge is thicker than necessary for the length i'm running the wires. How much power an I looking by running a thick gauge and how much power do I lose per foot of wire in general. Thanks for your help.

realistically, its the 30W per channel. However, the AIWA is not 100W per channel. Guaranteed.

How big of a room did he put this in? What volume level is his receiver set at?

he doesn't have an Iawa just some stereo system of similar quality that sounds louder than this H/K reciever on polk speakers, it is distorted as hell of course. he was expecting (and so was I) that the 300W of power would be louder than his old system and clearer. Why does H/K give two different power ratings? Is it 150W or 300W. I don't get it.

It's easier for an amplifier to send power out at 1kHz frequency rather than a full 20Hz-20kHz range. The THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) figure gives you an idea of how clean the power is that's coming out. It's also harder to drive all the speakers at once than a single speaker. HK would tell you the figure that they're all able to do simultaneously while an Aiwa system might just measure a single output and then multiply that figure by the number of speakers.

So, into a 8ohm speakers, the HK can either do

30 watts per channel for the full frequency spectrum at less than 0.07% Total Harmonic distortion

or

60 watts per channel for the single easy to drive frequency of 1kHz at less than 0.07% Total Harmonic distortion


For an "Aiwa" type system, it might be

50 watts into a single channel for the easy to drive frequency of 1kHz at less then 10% Total Harmonic distortion

 

[vi edit]

"Loud" is a pretty relative term and isn't necessarily a function of power. These guys went into a lot of the technical stuff already. My little 7 watt guitar amp will wake up neighbors on the other side of the street if I want it to. But that doesn't mean that it come close to powering a surround sound system like my H/K 247 with "350" watts of power of does.

I think you have some misplaced expectations on how it would perform.

EDIT: one setting to check is to see what the speakers are set at. They have "large" and "small" settings that limit the crossovers in the speaker and save power by only sending the higher stuff to your mains and leaving your sub to do the work on the lows.

If your speakers are set to "small" you may feel that they are underperforming if the sub isn't hooked up, or positioned properly and filling in the gaps.

 

[spidey07]

With those speakers and that receiver it is never going to be loud. Realistically when the volume is at 0 that is about as loud as it can go.

Also the size of the room has a big effect. So unless that receiver/speakers is in a very very small room it is never going to be very loud. If this is in a medium or large room the receiver just doesn't have the power to get loud.

 

[Modelworks]

I think your problem is the subwoofer.
Really a lot of the power ouput on home theater is in the bass .
60 watts into satellite speakers is actually quite loud with a good subwoofer.
The one in that set is only 50 watts continuous, thats low for bass ouput.

I hate buying powered subwoofers in sets because you have no idea of the quality of the amp used. The one in that set is also performs poorly at below 40hz. And 8 inch size is not going to do much "room shaking".

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

From the other thread this all seems to be based off the fact that 1/2 way up on the volume dial for each system results in the HK system being not as loud as the Aiwa type system. I'm curious to what the results are when the OP tries to just play both loudly not paying attention to the arbitrary volume levels of each system.

 

[KurskKnyaz]

0dB = no attentuation to the signal coming in
-25dB = 25 dB of attenuation to the input signal
10dB = boost input signal by 10dB

will boosting the signal cause clipping or damage the speakers?

 

[KurskKnyaz]

They give two power ratings because the 150W rating is honest. The 300W matches the way most manufacturer's rate their product.

My friend is considering returning this receiver and getting a Sony STR-DG710:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/ol...&cp=1&id=1166840602084

630W should get him to the loudness he wants assuming that the realistic wattage will be 1/2 of that. But I told him that there is a reason why a 300W Harmon/Kardon costs more than a 630W Sony and pointed out the 0.07% THD vs 1.0% THD. Will there be an audible difference in a signal thats almost 15 times cleaner on paper?

 

[KurskKnyaz]

Originally posted by: spidey07
With those speakers and that receiver it is never going to be loud. Realistically when the volume is at 0 that is about as loud as it can go.

Also the size of the room has a big effect. So unless that receiver/speakers is in a very very small room it is never going to be very loud. If this is in a medium or large room the receiver just doesn't have the power to get loud.

the room is about 12'x20'

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz

0dB = no attentuation to the signal coming in
-25dB = 25 dB of attenuation to the input signal
10dB = boost input signal by 10dB

will boosting the signal cause clipping or damage the speakers?

It's possible depending on the receiver. I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz

Originally posted by: spidey07
With those speakers and that receiver it is never going to be loud. Realistically when the volume is at 0 that is about as loud as it can go.

Also the size of the room has a big effect. So unless that receiver/speakers is in a very very small room it is never going to be very loud. If this is in a medium or large room the receiver just doesn't have the power to get loud.

the room is about 12'x20'

So even at a volume setting of 0dB its too quiet? What's your source?

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz

0dB = no attentuation to the signal coming in
-25dB = 25 dB of attenuation to the input signal
10dB = boost input signal by 10dB

will boosting the signal cause clipping or damage the speakers?

Is it not loud enough when you have it at 0? I thought you were listening to -25.

-25 up to 0 is going to be a huge difference.

If it's not loud enough at 0, something is up.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz

They give two power ratings because the 150W rating is honest. The 300W matches the way most manufacturer's rate their product.

My friend is considering returning this receiver and getting a Sony STR-DG710:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/ol...&cp=1&id=1166840602084

630W should get him to the loudness he wants assuming that the realistic wattage will be 1/2 of that. But I told him that there is a reason why a 300W Harmon/Kardon costs more than a 630W Sony and pointed out the 0.07% THD vs 1.0% THD. Will there be an audible difference in a signal thats almost 15 times cleaner on paper?

Don't get this Sony, keep the HK.

http://www.geocities.com/Area5...llow/3401/ratevsac.htm

Even if the Sony does have better power output than the HK (which I doubt), even if it's double the HK's wattage (60 watts vs 30 watts full range 0.07% THD), it's only going to get him a few dB more output (equivalent to turning up the HK's volume control by a few steps).

I really think you just need to turn the HK up louder unless you're already at 0

 

[iamwiz82]

+9 db on my new AVR-247 is so loud my dogs start freaking out, so I'd say that's pretty darned loud. You cannot hold any type of conversation with it at that volume. The 247 is rated higher than the 146, though. But even then, it should be loud enough.

 

[nsafreak]

Proud owner of a H/K AVR-230 here and I have to wonder how loud this guy is looking to have his setup at. I typically listen to most material at around -35 to -30 on my system. If I get into the tens and single digits it starts to get into the room vibration stage with my Paradigm subwoofer.

 

[vi edit]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82
+9 db on my new AVR-247 is so loud my dogs start freaking out, so I'd say that's pretty darned loud. You cannot hold any type of conversation with it at that volume. The 247 is rated higher than the 146, though. But even then, it should be loud enough.

Heh. I just had my 247 @ -10 watching Planet Terror. The room was shaking at several points. For reference I'm set up in a 29x15 room. Certainly plenty of headroom with the power rating.

Ours put out a bit more punch than the 146. But really though, I'm only running speakers that have an 87db sensitivity. The OP's would be a little bit short of equal with the 89db that he is using.

Source certainly seems to make a difference. DVD's played from my Xbox are WAY louder than even a music CD played from the same device. Same goes for my HD Channels on Dish. They don't have the same "pop" to them that DVD's do.

 

[Modelworks]

If that room is only 240 sq ft and the HK receiver is not loud enough, either there is defective equipment or your friend is deaf !