Home inspection: live knob & tube wiring

[NetWareHead]

Would appreciate some opinions here on this situation please. Im actively shopping for invstment properties and have put in an offer on a 2 family house. House is old construction but I like it and it would turn a profit when fully rented. I had my home inspection the other day and the inspector revealed live knot and tube wiring in the basement and attic. In addition, 80% of the outlets in the entire house are wired incorrectly (biggest problem is ungrounded along with a few others are reversed polarity).

IMO, the visible knob and tube system probably is also indicative of whats behind the walls. The fact that the majority of the outlets are ungrounded leads me to beleive that they are fed by k&t wiring which has no ground wire. In addition, one leg of active k&t wiring is spliced into a run of romex using regular wire nuts! Not even in a junction box, just some electrical tape and wire nuts hanging from a floor joist in the basement. It reeks of amatuer electrician work IMO.

I indicated my wishes to the seller that I would like to have an electrician do a more thorough electrical inspection to give me more of an idea of what I am getting into. The idea is that the inspector is not an electrician and I'll get a better answer from the electrician.

The game plan is that once my electrical inspection is complete, I'll have an estimate at best case, deactivate the k&t wiring or at worst case, rewire a good portion of the house. With the estimate, ask the seller to accordingly lower price of the house. Comments, advice?

 

[boomerang]

I think your reasoning is sound. The only thing I might add is the possibility that either the method of financing you've chosen or local rules and regulations as they relate to the sale could dictate that the electrical be brought up to code. In other words, you as the buyer may have no choice that the electrical will have to be updated. It would be best to go in with eyes wide open and you're doing so. The seller should understand this and allow an electrician for your purposes.

 

[Greenman]

Knob and tube is safe as long as not buried in insulation or chewed by rats. That said, the system is at the end of it's useful life and needs to be replaced.

 

[NetWareHead]

I think your reasoning is sound. The only thing I might add is the possibility that either the method of financing you've chosen or local rules and regulations as they relate to the sale could dictate that the electrical be brought up to code. In other words, you as the buyer may have no choice that the electrical will have to be updated. It would be best to go in with eyes wide open and you're doing so. The seller should understand this and allow an electrician for your purposes.

You are correct in that this wiring is no longer permitted in my jurisdiction. In fact, my insurance company, when I informed that I am considering a house with live k&t, said I have 6 months to correct ths issue or else they will drop the house from my policy. My contract so far with seller permits me to leave negotiations and get my deposit returned on condition I am unable to obtain insurance. Waiting for her response to my request to have further electrical inspection...

 

[NetWareHead]

Knob and tube is safe as long as not buried in insulation or chewed by rats. That said, the system is at the end of it's useful life and needs to be replaced.

Agreed. I'd like to blow insulation in the walls and live K&T is my concern. Im pretty much operating on the premise that there is no excuse in 2015 for live K&T; something obsoleted by 80-90 years.

 

[Jimzz]

I would plan to rewire the house and make an offer based on that requirement. I have found its better to just bite it and do it 100% correct then piece meal it.

Is the panel also updated/current?

 

[NetWareHead]

I would plan to rewire the house and make an offer based on that requirement. I have found its better to just bite it and do it 100% correct then piece meal it.

Is the panel also updated/current?

The panels look current and are both rated for 100 amps (first and second floor). What confuses me is that the panels only have romex and bx armored cable going to locations to rest of the house. But if this is so, why are most of the outlets ungrounded?

I always thought/assumed romex/bx cabling included a ground wire. If my guess is correct, then why is that ground wire not hooked up on most of the outlets? I could see an incorrect outlet here and there but 80%??

My worst case scenario is that romex/bx was run to a hidden point and spliced illegally to the K&T in the walls. Sounds farfetched but I found 1 illegal splice so far. Im thinking the previosu owner did the bare minimum to get the electical system to pass inspection. Thoughts?

 

[jaha2000]

The panels look current and are both rated for 100 amps (first and second floor). What confuses me is that the panels only have romex and bx armored cable going to locations to rest of the house. But if this is so, why are most of the outlets ungrounded?

I always thought/assumed romex/bx cabling included a ground wire. If my guess is correct, then why is that ground wire not hooked up on most of the outlets? I could see an incorrect outlet here and there but 80%??

My worst case scenario is that romex/bx was run to a hidden point and spliced illegally to the K&T in the walls. Sounds farfetched but I found 1 illegal splice so far. Im thinking the previosu owner did the bare minimum to get the electical system to pass inspection. Thoughts?

Yep, looks good on the surface but totally hosed when you dig in..
Im not sure a full inspection would be required, I would ask for a full rewire back to the panel.

 

[Jimzz]

The panels look current and are both rated for 100 amps (first and second floor). What confuses me is that the panels only have romex and bx armored cable going to locations to rest of the house. But if this is so, why are most of the outlets ungrounded?

I always thought/assumed romex/bx cabling included a ground wire. If my guess is correct, then why is that ground wire not hooked up on most of the outlets? I could see an incorrect outlet here and there but 80%??

My worst case scenario is that romex/bx was run to a hidden point and spliced illegally to the K&T in the walls. Sounds farfetched but I found 1 illegal splice so far. Im thinking the previosu owner did the bare minimum to get the electical system to pass inspection. Thoughts?

Do both panels have their own feed or is 1 a sub of the other?

But yea that is what many did to "fix" or hide the K&T is just run romex and then splice into the K&T.

 

[NetWareHead]

Do both panels have their own feed or is 1 a sub of the other?

2 electrical meters outside of house and individual run to each floor's panel. No sub panel.

But yea that is what many did to "fix" or hide the K&T is just run romex and then splice into the K&T.

Damnit, I was hoping my idea was farfetched but you're telling me it is/was common. This seller is being a pain in the ass and I have a feeling whe willl refuse to come down lower on the price even if a major defect such as this is found. If that is the case, I will probably walk away.

 

[paperfist]

Do both panels have their own feed or is 1 a sub of the other?

But yea that is what many did to "fix" or hide the K&T is just run romex and then splice into the K&T.

That's what they did in my house. What a nightmare! Tried to just do a room at a time but the K&T was so intertwined, run from room to room and spliced everywhere in between that it wasn't feasible to do it that way.

I don't know how it was originally meant to be spliced, but my house had these splices in the ceiling that were wrapped in some kind of heavy electrical tape.

 

[crashtech]

My worst case scenario is that romex/bx was run to a hidden point and spliced illegally to the K&T in the walls. Sounds farfetched but I found 1 illegal splice so far. Im thinking the previosu owner did the bare minimum to get the electical system to pass inspection. Thoughts?

Bet you a dollar this is exactly what you would find.

 

[edro]

Tough decision.
With the way safety is being enforced now a days, I don't know if I would buy a rental knowing it was fully k&t.

You know the seller won't take $10k off the price, but that is the minimum cost to rewire a house, and I don't even know the size or market.

 

[dphantom]

Bet you a dollar this is exactly what you would find.

This. Almost certainly what happened.

 

[mizzou]

tge electrician estimate will give you the best idea of what to do. Especially for a rental property....the electricity needs to be updated and brought to code

 

[DrPizza]

Couldn't you just rewire it yourself? I think 12/2 w/grd is only $50 or $60 for a 250 foot roll. Probably wouldn't take more than half a dozen rolls, plus outlets can be bought in bulk for well under a dollar each. (Hell, if you want brown outlets, I have a few dozen I got at an auction that I'd just give to you if you were nearby.)

 

[NetWareHead]

Couldn't you just rewire it yourself? I think 12/2 w/grd is only $50 or $60 for a 250 foot roll. Probably wouldn't take more than half a dozen rolls, plus outlets can be bought in bulk for well under a dollar each. (Hell, if you want brown outlets, I have a few dozen I got at an auction that I'd just give to you if you were nearby.)

I dont know what Im getting into; Im not an electrician. And running cable in old construction sucks (plaster lath walls and rock wool insulation. Plus I need to come up with an estimate to give to the seller so I can negotiate a price to come off the house price in a few days. One of those time is of the essence type of things.

 

[crashtech]

Most likely outcome is that they will choose to wait for someone more foolish than you.

 

[iamwiz82]

This is what you get with an older home, this is also why it is probably priced a bit lower than the newer construction 5 doors down.

If you have good attic and basement access I don't see it costing $10,000.

 

[Greenman]

I dont know what Im getting into; Im not an electrician. And running cable in old construction sucks (plaster lath walls and rock wool insulation. Plus I need to come up with an estimate to give to the seller so I can negotiate a price to come off the house price in a few days. One of those time is of the essence type of things.

K&T wiring is the glaring issue right now, but that's only one symptom of the entire problem. Along with that you will likely find asbestos, lead based paint, corroded steel plumbing, and a furnace that's a carbon monoxide factory. Generally a poor quality foundation is in the mix as well.

I like old houses as I'm well paid to repair them, but I'd never own one.

 

[Paperdoc]

As others have said, DEFINITELY plan that the entire house needs to be re-wired. You say there are two relatively new meters and panels already, so they probably don't need replacement. One thing your potential electrical contractor should check, though, is the service entrance cabling - that's the wires from the poles outside to the house, all the way to the dual meters. Since there are TWO 100-amp service panels (and those contain the only breakers to limit current), the service entrance cables need to have at least 200 amps capacity.

The reason there are no grounded outlets is as you suspect: the people who installed the new panels with romex cabling only took that grounded cable to some connection points with the existing knob-and-tube lines, and those do NOT have any Ground wires. The few instances you've found of reversed connections also happen easily with knob-and-tube systems because usually the installers paid no attention at all to outlet polarity. In fact, most such older systems have two-prong outlets in which the slot sizes were the SAME size, and you can't even plug into those the polarized two-prong plugs now in use (with the Neutral prong wider), never mind three-prong Grounded plugs. That brings up another question: how do you know the outlets are reverse wired and not grounded? Did someone go through the house and replace all the old outlets with new 3-prong outlets without changing the wires in the wall? THAT is illegal in my jurisdiction! It creates a false sense of security and potentially misinforms the user.

As for taped junctions, that is exactly how wiring connections were made at the time of knob-and-tube systems. The tape use then was not modern vinyl. It was a thicker fabric material impregnated with black slightly tarry stuff.

Further thought: modern electrical codes require a certain number of circuits in a house, with minimum numbers of outlets per room, maximum spacing between them, etc., and special provisions in kitchens and bathrooms. None of these requirements can be met with existing knob-and-tube wiring in the walls or with typical 60-amp distribution wiring (even though you have 100-amp panels).

We bought this old house in 1971 and it had a 60-amp knob-and-tube system in it with some really odd mistakes. We arranged the mortgage to include the funds for complete re-wiring which I did myself, learning a lot in the process. Downstairs I ran all cabling through joists in the basement and up into walls for outlets, etc. Had to do a few removals of sections of plaster-and-lath to install wall switches and ceiling boxes for light fixtures. For the second floor, I removed a small section of wall and ran many cables from basement to attic between two wall studs, then closed it up after. All the upstairs wiring was run around the attic through joists, and then down through walls to outlets and switches. What helped this was very poor insulation in walls and NO fire stops across between studs, so that fishing cable was relatively easy. It took several months of steady part-time work on the project. But you are not planning on taking on such a task, OP.

 

[NetWareHead]

Great information so far thank you to all.

That brings up another question: how do you know the outlets are reverse wired and not grounded? Did someone go through the house and replace all the old outlets with new 3-prong outlets without changing the wires in the wall? THAT is illegal in my jurisdiction! It creates a false sense of security and potentially misinforms the user.

Home inspector plugged a tester into each outlet and found reversed polarity in some. Same tester had capacility to inform of nongrounded installation too

Whats funny is the only outlets that tested correctly were in the basement where the romex/bx runs is visible and relatively easy to run.

It took several months of steady part-time work on the project. But you are not planning on taking on such a task, OP.

Its also for liability reasons. If this were a 1 family house and I'm living here, I would at least try to do it myself. But I will have 2 tenants and the unit needs to be right from day one for liability reasons. My insurance also wont insure the place after 6 months. I also do not think tenants would put up with electrical construction on a part time basis for months at a time. Otherwise I would like to at least try some of it myself, but not in this setting.

 

[Paperdoc]

I'm still intrigued with what type of tester the inspector used. Most I've seen recently only will plug into 3-prong modern outlets. Is that what is now installed through the entire house? If so, the findings of reversed wiring and no grounding confirms the work was done without replacing the knob-and-tube system, and hence is NOT up to code.

The fact that the only correctly-wired outlets are in the basement where new romex or BX obviously WAS used to replace old knob-and-tube make perfect sense. At least whoever did that work knew how to connect those new cables in the fuse box and at the outlets!

I fully understand your reasons for not undertaking this yourself, and I agree with you. My situation back in '71 was quite different. We were a young couple with no children but planning a family, and I was an impoverished graduate student. We needed everything done as cheaply as possible, and I considered myself a reasonable handyman with some experience with electrical systems and ability to learn what additional things I needed. ALSO, in this jurisdiction at that time there was no legal or insurance requirement that such work be done by a licensed tradesman. What WAS required is that it be done according to electrical code (I bought a code book and read it many times!) and inspected and approved by the government agency responsible for electrical safety. Without that approval certificate you could not get insurance; even the local electrical utility company would not connect power to the system until approved.

 

[NetWareHead]

I'm still intrigued with what type of tester the inspector used. Most I've seen recently only will plug into 3-prong modern outlets. Is that what is now installed through the entire house? If so, the findings of reversed wiring and no grounding confirms the work was done without replacing the knob-and-tube system, and hence is NOT up to code.

The fact that the only correctly-wired outlets are in the basement where new romex or BX obviously WAS used to replace old knob-and-tube make perfect sense. At least whoever did that work knew how to connect those new cables in the fuse box and at the outlets!

I fully understand your reasons for not undertaking this yourself, and I agree with you. My situation back in '71 was quite different. We were a young couple with no children but planning a family, and I was an impoverished graduate student. We needed everything done as cheaply as possible, and I considered myself a reasonable handyman with some experience with electrical systems and ability to learn what additional things I needed. ALSO, in this jurisdiction at that time there was no legal or insurance requirement that such work be done by a licensed tradesman. What WAS required is that it be done according to electrical code (I bought a code book and read it many times!) and inspected and approved by the government agency responsible for electrical safety. Without that approval certificate you could not get insurance; even the local electrical utility company would not connect power to the system until approved.

One of these testers was used by the inspector to generate either a properly grounded, non grounded or reverse polarity:
http://www.electricalbasics.com/Sha...eceptacle-tester-3-wire-EBTT-17-RT-CA-med.jpg

 

[Murloc]

Very interesting thread.

I don't think it's legal to put a 3 hole socket and leave the ground unconnected, that's actually dangerous if the ground serves an actual purpose.

My bet: she will wait for someone gullible. Why do the work of hiding the obsoleteness of the house if you're going to be honest about it?