holy man ... Yankees just came back from wayy back

[dnuggett]

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: dnuggett
I heard the game when it was 9-0 Rangers. Switched it over to Russ Martin and now I read in this thread that the Yanks won. Furthers my theory that the Rangers are not "good enough" this year.

When have the rangers EVER been 'good enough'?

They are on the top of their division. False hopes, false hopes.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Your definition of ownage is hilarious, kinda like your definition of Moose getting rocked. I finally realized that you don't actually have much baseball knowledge at all, you just spout off the latest Sox fantasy going around Beanland. What a pitcher does in spring training means absolutely nothing. NOTHING. He hasn't done it in the regular season since coming over here. It's meaningless. Moose has not been inconsistant at all this season. And giving up 2 runs is not blowing a game in anyshape or form, especially when the game was tied when he left. Seriously dude, get a clue before you start spewing again.

Let's compare for a second:

Schilling has pitched an inning less than Mussina to this point.
So they've pitched roughly the same amount of innings, their walks and SO's are essentially the same, Schilling has an ERA of 4.17 while Moose is 2.56. Now if I was a blind fanboy, like you, and if I used your logic I would say that Schilling is done, he's over, he's too old and Mosse PWNS him. But I'm not, I'm actually open to the fact that Schilling over his career is a way better pitcher than Mussina. So chances are that he'll get his act together again. You OTOH think that some rookie kid who's bubble hasn't yet burst as a closer is better than Rivera, one of the best relief pitchers of all time who's going through a rough stretch. That's nothing short of idiotic.

Yes, you were owned. Let's recap, you said: Randy hasn't thrown 97 in at least 3 years. He's been at 93-94 ever since he got to the Yankees. He has mechanical issues, because 93 is fast enough to get the job done, it's his location that's screwed up.

I proceeded to link proof that a scout said he was throwing 96 in March. And I KNOW Unit was throwing 97 versus the Bosox last fall. I watched the game where he dominated them in the last series. To say he hasn't thrown 97 in 3 years is preposterous, and it makes me even wonder if you've watched baseball in the past 3 years. In fact, in 2004 (2 years ago) Randy posted his lowest. WHIP. ever in his career, finished 1st in strikeouts, and finished 2nd in K/9 with 10.62. Like hell he wasn't throwing 97mph and up, give me some of that crack you're smoking.

Well whoopdey doo, Moose's stats are slightly better than Schill's. Moose will eventually fall back to form, while Schill continues gets it done with his splitter. And to say Rivera is even remotely near Papelbon's league since last fall is absurd. He's given up 1 run since last September. ONE. Rivera has a blown save already (converted 7/8) and Paps is 14/14 with a 0.42ERA, less than half of Rivera's WHIP, and almost double Rivera's K/9 at 8.02 vs 4.24. Out with the old, and in with the new. Boston now has the most dominating closer in baseball, period.

Should I even dignify this with a response?
I watch 98% of Yankee games.
I've seen most if not all of Johnson's starts witht the Yankees. Your assumption that he must've been throwing 97 because he had a great year with alot of strikeouts is ridiculous.
It's beyond hypocritical of you to assume Moose will fall back into form but not Rivera.
And if you are a real baseball fan you will know that a splitter is only real effective when a pitcher is throwing a good fastball as well.
This argument is getting ridiculous, and I'm out.
I think anyone reading this thread can see how poor your arguments are.

That's great that you watch "98%" of Yankee games. You said Big Unit hasn't thrown 97 in "at least 3 years". The dominant stats I quoted were from 2 years ago, i.e. 2004 when he was with Arizona. Maybe you forgot that he has only pitched one year with NY, but either way you don't make such a stupid comment like that and not think you're going to get owned. Do you seriously want me to get some links to 2004 that prove he was throwing 97 with Arizona? Stats don't lie. He was touching 96 on the radar this past March, 2006, I provided proof. To reiterate, if you think he wasn't throwing 97 in 2004 with Arizona when he posted a career best WHIP then you're out of your mind.

Rivera is old, he is too inconsistent now, he is not a sure thing like he used to be, anyone will tell you that. Papelbon is the best closer in the majors right now.

No duh you need a good fastball to throw an effective splitter. One that is >90mph, anyone who knows baseball will tell you that. Clemens was effective when he reinvented himself with the splitter and he was only throwing in the 92-96 range with the Blue Jays. Schilling is throwing in that exact range, he rarely pops 95 anymore but he still throws well above 90mph to command an effective splitter. I pitched varsity baseball in high school, I think I know more about pitching than you ever will.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: FeuerFrei
Bastards they need to be taken out back and shot for pulling off that 2 run homer in the bottom of the ninth. I was all ready to celebrate a Ranger win.

I wouldn't worry too much, Texas pitchers racked up 3 blown saves last night. DJ and Posada ain't gonna do that every night, collectively.

The Yanks are screwed. Even the Sandman Rivera gave up another run and "improved" (lol) his "sparkling" ERA to 3.18, and his arm could fail at any time like Big Unit's because of age. Sheff, Matsui out. Bullpen stinks. Their only hope is to resign the Rocket.

Age is catching up to the Yankees. Johnson's an example of this, mariano is as well.

But your idea how Mussina got "rocked" for giving up 2 runs to a top offense in baseball is funny at best.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
That's great that you watch "98%" of Yankee games. You said Big Unit hasn't thrown 97 in "at least 3 years". The dominant stats I quoted were from 2 years ago, i.e. 2004 when he was with Arizona. Maybe you forgot that he has only pitched one year with NY, but either way you don't make such a stupid comment like that and not think you're going to get owned. Do you seriously want me to get some links to 2004 that prove he was throwing 97 with Arizona? Stats don't lie. He was touching 96 on the radar this past March, 2006, I provided proof. To reiterate, if you think he wasn't throwing 97 in 2004 with Arizona when he posted a career best WHIP then you're out of your mind.

I know I said I'm done with this, and I am, this is my final post in this thread. But I wasn't going to let this stand. You said he went from 97 to 92 in a matter of weeks. It doesn't matter what he did in '04, that's a long time more than a few weeks ago. He has not thrown 97 with the Yankees in a regular season game. Aside from that, 93 is more than hard enough to have success in the major leagues. His location is off, which is not a sign of age, it's a sign of a mechanical problem.

Rivera is old, he is too inconsistent now, he is not a sure thing like he used to be, anyone will tell you that. Papelbon is the best closer in the majors right now.

Right now, Papelbon may be. But he is far from a sure thing. He's an unproven kid. Time will tell. But to say he's a better close than Rivera is insane. Rivera is getting old? Yeah, maybe. But he didn't age a few years over the offseason. He had a great year last year, you don't just lose it all in an offseason. He's going through a rough stretch, but I'll wager he ends up having a much, much better year than the rookie kid.
You still haven't answered your inconsistancy with saying Mussina will fall back into his old form, but Rivera won't.

No duh you need a good fastball to throw an effective splitter. One that is >90mph, anyone who knows baseball will tell you that. Clemens was effective when he reinvented himself with the splitter and he was only throwing in the 92-96 range with the Blue Jays. Schilling is throwing in that exact range, he rarely pops 95 anymore but he still throws well above 90mph to command an effective splitter. I pitched varsity baseball in high school, I think I know more about pitching than you ever will.

Well, thanks for killing your Randy Johnson age argument. He throws above 90.

 

[geecee]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
And to say Rivera is even remotely near Papelbon's league since last fall is absurd. He's given up 1 run since last September. ONE. Rivera has a blown save already (converted 7/8) and Paps is 14/14 with a 0.42ERA, less than half of Rivera's WHIP, and almost double Rivera's K/9 at 8.02 vs 4.24. Out with the old, and in with the new. Boston now has the most dominating closer in baseball, period.

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Rivera is old, he is too inconsistent now, he is not a sure thing like he used to be, anyone will tell you that. Papelbon is the best closer in the majors right now.

In the past sp33demon, you've been capable of making the occasional lucid argument 🙂P, from a Yankee fan's POV, so what do you expect?) But you're really waaaaay off on this one. Yes, he is most certainly having a better month and a half than Rivera and he may prove be one of the most dominant closers in baseball in the next few years, but to say that Rivera has fallen off his game and and is no longer one of the best closers in the game is, how shall we say this delicately, the delusional raving of a Sox fan. Papelbon had a decent year last year and an excellent month and a half so far. But he couldn't come close to matching Rivera's overall stats last year (granted, Pap wasn't the closer last year). Rivera had a 1.38 ERA and a 0.87 WHIP. JPap showed 2.65 and a 1.47 WHIP. If you combine last year's stats with this years' to form roughly a full season (not quite, I know) JPap has a 1.79 ERA and a 1.16 WHIP. While this is excellent, even arguably dominant, the numbers are not nearly as good as his current hot streak would indicate. Rivera, OTOH, if you incorporate his subpar month and a half into last year's stats, you'll find that he still has a WHIP below 1 (0.96) and an ERA of 1.68, both numbers that better JPap's. While I'm not going to say that Rivera isn't aging, I hope you'll understand that I'm not quite ready to call for Rivera's replacement over a slow start either. Mo had a couple of dominant stretches last year where his numbers resembled JPap's current one, and he also had a few cold spells (including a slow start at Fenway, if I recall correctly), like almost every closer out there does. Come back and crow at the end of the year if JPap has maintained this same stretch throughout 2006. And if JPap has half as many dominant years as a closer in his career as Mo had already had, I will agree with any assessment (however delusional) that you care to make about his greatness. 😉

 

[Jack Ryan]

ThePresence wins.

 

[BHeemsoth]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Your definition of ownage is hilarious, kinda like your definition of Moose getting rocked. I finally realized that you don't actually have much baseball knowledge at all, you just spout off the latest Sox fantasy going around Beanland. What a pitcher does in spring training means absolutely nothing. NOTHING. He hasn't done it in the regular season since coming over here. It's meaningless. Moose has not been inconsistant at all this season. And giving up 2 runs is not blowing a game in anyshape or form, especially when the game was tied when he left. Seriously dude, get a clue before you start spewing again.

Let's compare for a second:

Schilling has pitched an inning less than Mussina to this point.
So they've pitched roughly the same amount of innings, their walks and SO's are essentially the same, Schilling has an ERA of 4.17 while Moose is 2.56. Now if I was a blind fanboy, like you, and if I used your logic I would say that Schilling is done, he's over, he's too old and Mosse PWNS him. But I'm not, I'm actually open to the fact that Schilling over his career is a way better pitcher than Mussina. So chances are that he'll get his act together again. You OTOH think that some rookie kid who's bubble hasn't yet burst as a closer is better than Rivera, one of the best relief pitchers of all time who's going through a rough stretch. That's nothing short of idiotic.

Yes, you were owned. Let's recap, you said: Randy hasn't thrown 97 in at least 3 years. He's been at 93-94 ever since he got to the Yankees. He has mechanical issues, because 93 is fast enough to get the job done, it's his location that's screwed up.

I proceeded to link proof that a scout said he was throwing 96 in March. And I KNOW Unit was throwing 97 versus the Bosox last fall. I watched the game where he dominated them in the last series. To say he hasn't thrown 97 in 3 years is preposterous, and it makes me even wonder if you've watched baseball in the past 3 years. In fact, in 2004 (2 years ago) Randy posted his lowest. WHIP. ever in his career, finished 1st in strikeouts, and finished 2nd in K/9 with 10.62. Like hell he wasn't throwing 97mph and up, give me some of that crack you're smoking.

Well whoopdey doo, Moose's stats are slightly better than Schill's. Moose will eventually fall back to form, while Schill continues gets it done with his splitter. And to say Rivera is even remotely near Papelbon's league since last fall is absurd. He's given up 1 run since last September. ONE. Rivera has a blown save already (converted 7/8) and Paps is 14/14 with a 0.42ERA, less than half of Rivera's WHIP, and almost double Rivera's K/9 at 8.02 vs 4.24. Out with the old, and in with the new. Boston now has the most dominating closer in baseball, period.

I'm sure he hit 97 a few times, but not on a consitent basis as he used to.

You have no leg to stand on here, just shut up.

Oh, and Rivera is the best closer of all time and a surefire HOF'er. Papplebon has appeared in less than 1/4 of a season. I can't wait until he blows a couple and all this hype finally dies.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
That's great that you watch "98%" of Yankee games. You said Big Unit hasn't thrown 97 in "at least 3 years". The dominant stats I quoted were from 2 years ago, i.e. 2004 when he was with Arizona. Maybe you forgot that he has only pitched one year with NY, but either way you don't make such a stupid comment like that and not think you're going to get owned. Do you seriously want me to get some links to 2004 that prove he was throwing 97 with Arizona? Stats don't lie. He was touching 96 on the radar this past March, 2006, I provided proof. To reiterate, if you think he wasn't throwing 97 in 2004 with Arizona when he posted a career best WHIP then you're out of your mind.

I know I said I'm done with this, and I am, this is my final post in this thread. But I wasn't going to let this stand. You said he went from 97 to 92 in a matter of weeks. It doesn't matter what he did in '04, that's a long time more than a few weeks ago. He has not thrown 97 with the Yankees in a regular season game. Aside from that, 93 is more than hard enough to have success in the major leagues. His location is off, which is not a sign of age, it's a sign of a mechanical problem.

Rivera is old, he is too inconsistent now, he is not a sure thing like he used to be, anyone will tell you that. Papelbon is the best closer in the majors right now.

Right now, Papelbon may be. But he is far from a sure thing. He's an unproven kid. Time will tell. But to say he's a better close than Rivera is insane. Rivera is getting old? Yeah, maybe. But he didn't age a few years over the offseason. He had a great year last year, you don't just lose it all in an offseason. He's going through a rough stretch, but I'll wager he ends up having a much, much better year than the rookie kid.
You still haven't answered your inconsistancy with saying Mussina will fall back into his old form, but Rivera won't.

No duh you need a good fastball to throw an effective splitter. One that is >90mph, anyone who knows baseball will tell you that. Clemens was effective when he reinvented himself with the splitter and he was only throwing in the 92-96 range with the Blue Jays. Schilling is throwing in that exact range, he rarely pops 95 anymore but he still throws well above 90mph to command an effective splitter. I pitched varsity baseball in high school, I think I know more about pitching than you ever will.

Well, thanks for killing your Randy Johnson age argument. He throws above 90.

Wow you're ignorant and really reach when getting owned, I enjoy making Yankee fans squirm. Ok, you ready for this? Randy Johnson does not throw a split finger fastball, his marquee pitch is a cut slider. Do you even follow baseball? If you did, you would know that Roger Clemens never had a splitter until he went to Toronto, when his velocity dropped from previous years of 98mph (hence the title Rocket) to 92-96. That's why he reinvented himself, by learning a new pitch (the split) and dominating with it despite a big drop in velocity.

Randy Johnson's cut slider isn't going to get it done at 92mph with a tired arm and fubared mechanics, at 95+ it is dominant. You ready for this? The cut slider is exponentially improved as speed increases, the split is not. The split finger can be thrown with great success even as low as the 90-92mph range, as long as you can spot it half decent. It's the primary reason that Papelbon, Schilling, and Clemens are more effective than Big Unit even though they all throw in relatively the same mph range (90-95, although I've seen Paps throw in the upper 90's occasionally). The split isn't as dependant on location as Randy's cut slider, many times it's diving into the dirt and the batter will still swing, it's a deceptive pitch that doesn't depend on location as much as RJ's slider.

You then say: But to say he's [Papelbon] a better closer than Rivera is insane.
More density. Papelbon is twice as good as Rivera this year, stats don't lie. Nobody gives a sht what Rivera did in the past, I'm talking about NOW. Typical of a Yankee fan to hold onto past years of glory, they don't mean jack in the present. You probably think Giambi is a better hitter than Pujols now using this stupid logic, yes Giambi WAS good (during his roid years). Rivera had 4 losses and 4 blown saves last year. He's already got 2 losses and a blown save this year, and is .75 points above his career ERA. Face the facts, he is not the dominant Rivera of old. He will not "return to form", and it's typical Moose to start out strong and then fall back to mediocrity.

RJ's problem is related directly to fatigue, look at his spring training, he would pitch strong and then "hit a wall" during the fifth inning. Fatigue most directly affects mechanics, and now it's screwed him up mentally and he's overthrowing to try and compensate (hitting the backstop twice vs Boston) for lack of velocity. Yes, in a matter of weeks he lost literally 4mph to his fastball between March and April. He is screwed physically with fatigue, and mentally now (I bet his child out of wedlock speaking out played a big role in that too). Schill will continue to dominate while throwing just as hard as Big Unit, mainly because he has better stuff that isn't as dependant on velocity. If RJ doesn't learn a new pitch (changeup, split,) and reinvent himself, he is done.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: rpbri2886

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Your definition of ownage is hilarious, kinda like your definition of Moose getting rocked. I finally realized that you don't actually have much baseball knowledge at all, you just spout off the latest Sox fantasy going around Beanland. What a pitcher does in spring training means absolutely nothing. NOTHING. He hasn't done it in the regular season since coming over here. It's meaningless. Moose has not been inconsistant at all this season. And giving up 2 runs is not blowing a game in anyshape or form, especially when the game was tied when he left. Seriously dude, get a clue before you start spewing again.

Let's compare for a second:

Schilling has pitched an inning less than Mussina to this point.
So they've pitched roughly the same amount of innings, their walks and SO's are essentially the same, Schilling has an ERA of 4.17 while Moose is 2.56. Now if I was a blind fanboy, like you, and if I used your logic I would say that Schilling is done, he's over, he's too old and Mosse PWNS him. But I'm not, I'm actually open to the fact that Schilling over his career is a way better pitcher than Mussina. So chances are that he'll get his act together again. You OTOH think that some rookie kid who's bubble hasn't yet burst as a closer is better than Rivera, one of the best relief pitchers of all time who's going through a rough stretch. That's nothing short of idiotic.

Yes, you were owned. Let's recap, you said: Randy hasn't thrown 97 in at least 3 years. He's been at 93-94 ever since he got to the Yankees. He has mechanical issues, because 93 is fast enough to get the job done, it's his location that's screwed up.

I proceeded to link proof that a scout said he was throwing 96 in March. And I KNOW Unit was throwing 97 versus the Bosox last fall. I watched the game where he dominated them in the last series. To say he hasn't thrown 97 in 3 years is preposterous, and it makes me even wonder if you've watched baseball in the past 3 years. In fact, in 2004 (2 years ago) Randy posted his lowest. WHIP. ever in his career, finished 1st in strikeouts, and finished 2nd in K/9 with 10.62. Like hell he wasn't throwing 97mph and up, give me some of that crack you're smoking.

Well whoopdey doo, Moose's stats are slightly better than Schill's. Moose will eventually fall back to form, while Schill continues gets it done with his splitter. And to say Rivera is even remotely near Papelbon's league since last fall is absurd. He's given up 1 run since last September. ONE. Rivera has a blown save already (converted 7/8) and Paps is 14/14 with a 0.42ERA, less than half of Rivera's WHIP, and almost double Rivera's K/9 at 8.02 vs 4.24. Out with the old, and in with the new. Boston now has the most dominating closer in baseball, period.

I'm sure he hit 97 a few times, but not on a consitent basis as he used to.

You have no leg to stand on here, just shut up.

Oh, and Rivera is the best closer of all time and a surefire HOF'er. Papplebon has appeared in less than 1/4 of a season. I can't wait until he blows a couple and all this hype finally dies.

Rollie Fingers (or arguably Eck) is the greatest closer of all time, he rules the "Tough Save" category.
Educate yourself (the chart at the bottom of the page).


Fingers, who had almost as many tough saves as easy saves, had a better success rate in those dangerous situations than Rivera, the most revered of the current closers. Why is Hoffman's ratio of tough saves to blown tough saves so much higher? Of the 101 career saves he has recorded in which he inherited runners, 64 came when he entered with two outs, and 25 of those in the ninth inning. Only two of Hoffman's 436 saves saw him enter before the eighth inning, compared to 75 for Fingers.

Dennis Eckersley has said that "you can't blame a pitcher for the way a manager uses him." That is true, but we can assess the relative difficulty of their assigned tasks. How much danger is there when you have to record no more than three outs while protecting a two- or three-run lead? When the worst performer of these seven recorded the save 90% of the time in that situation, is the glory that much greater for the reliever with a 96% success rate? I think not. I agree with Corneille in giving the most praise to the combatants who faced more danger for more innings.

 

[mordantmonkey]

guess they decided to start passing the juice around again... /troll