Holocaust Survivors Assistance Act of 2011

[woolfe9999]

Ummm, isn't this bill all about them getting special treatment?

If you read my post, which Infohawk was responding to, I quoted the statute's definition of "Holocaust survivor" as being anyone persecuted by the Nazis, not only the Jews.

 

[woolfe9999]

That's going to make it harder for Routan and the other usual suspects to bitch about Jews getting special treatment...

Agreed. However, your use of the expression "Jews getting special treatment" is highly unfortunate in the context of discussing the Holocaust.

 

[WelshBloke]

If you read my post, which Infohawk was responding to, I quoted the statute's definition of "Holocaust survivor" as being anyone persecuted by the Nazis, not only the Jews.

Indeed, but they are included in that group and are getting special treatment compared with the general populace.

 

[woolfe9999]

Indeed, but they are included in that group and are getting special treatment compared with the general populace.

Yes but the point is a lot weaker when there are probably 10 other groups included. The point that this is legislation for a narrow interest is not really debatable - it is. And there are hundreds of these kinds of bills for all kinds of groups. However, there are people who argue, or sometimes imply, that Jews in particular have so much status/power in American society that they're singled out for special favors. Also, Routon was arguing that the Holocaust as a concept should include non-Jewish victims, and I pointed out that the statute does exactly that.

 

[WelshBloke]

Yes but the point is a lot weaker when there are probably 10 other groups included. The point that this is legislation for a narrow interest is not really debatable - it is. And there are hundreds of these kinds of bills for all kinds of groups. However, there are people who argue, or sometimes imply, that Jews in particular have so much status/power in American society that they're singled out for special favors. Also, Routon was arguing that the Holocaust as a concept should include non-Jewish victims, and I pointed out that the statute does exactly that.

But arguing that this bill was not specifically targeted at the Jewish bloc is a bit disingenuous. How many members of the communist party or Roma do you think will be claiming?

 

[OVerLoRDI]

The US government should compensate for the crimes/human rights violations that it committed itself, such as slavery and Japanese internment camps. Holocaust is not one of them, obviously.

Qft

 

[Infohawk]

But arguing that this bill was not specifically targeted at the Jewish bloc is a bit disingenuous. How many members of the communist party or Roma do you think will be claiming?

This is something I don't like about P&N. Routan came here trying to act like this was a Jewish-specific bill when it wasn't. Wolfe and I responded to that. Now you jump in out of context and are ignoring the fact that we were responding to Routan's specific comment.

Maybe this bill was designed to make Jewish voters happy. And? Are jobs programs designed to make unemployed people happy? Why don't we focus on whether this bill is a good idea or not instead of whining that Jews get preferential treatment or which voting group is targeted?

Personally, I don't like that this bill is symptomatic of larger patchwork policies. We have a system where many people are in fact provided for by government, but you have to fall into odd categories. We should just get it over with and provide medical care to all citizens instead of having this weird system that usually serves to fuck the middle-class only.

 

[woolfe9999]

But arguing that this bill was not specifically targeted at the Jewish bloc is a bit disingenuous. How many members of the communist party or Roma do you think will be claiming?

Communists, Roma, Catholics, homosexuals, Poles, Slavs. By most counts there were almost as many non-Jewish victims as Jewish victims. Most of these groups (exception of Roma) had a lower percentage of the total population killed than that of the Jews, meaning there should be more survivors to benefit from legislation like this. I don't think it's correct to assume that Jews would be in the overwhelming majority.

You have also not answered the other point, which is that these kinds of bills benefiting various interest groups are introduced frequently. Why is this one of particular note, to the OP, to the author of the article cited by the OP, or for that matter, to yourself? I'll reply to you again only if you address this point.

- wolf

 

[soccerballtux]

most people agree that those opposed to this have an agenda. Basically, there's no reason not to give the jews who had loved ones, family members, children killed under Hitler's regime; there's no reason not to give them a comfortable ride to the grave. No one is more deserving.

 

[WelshBloke]

This is something I don't like about P&N. Routan came here trying to act like this was a Jewish-specific bill when it wasn't. Wolfe and I responded to that. Now you jump in out of context and are ignoring the fact that we were responding to Routan's specific comment.

Maybe this bill was designed to make Jewish voters happy. And? Are jobs programs designed to make unemployed people happy? Why don't we focus on whether this bill is a good idea or not instead of whining that Jews get preferential treatment or which voting group is targeted?

...

In your first paragraph you seem to say that its not a bill targeted towards the Jewish sufferers of the Holocaust but in your second you seem to say it is.

I'm not whining either way, Ill not be paying for or gaining from this bill.

I was just responding to your rather odd comment about this not being targeted towards the Jewish populace.

 

[WelshBloke]

You have also not answered the other point, which is that these kinds of bills benefiting various interest groups are introduced frequently. Why is this one of particular note, to the OP, to the author of the article cited by the OP, or for that matter, to yourself? I'll reply to you again only if you address this point.

- wolf

Its not of particular note to me, it was just another topic on a message board.

 

[Infohawk]

In your first paragraph you seem to say that its not a bill targeted towards the Jewish sufferers of the Holocaust but in your second you seem to say it is.

I'm not whining either way, Ill not be paying for or gaining from this bill.

I was just responding to your rather odd comment about this not being targeted towards the Jewish populace.

Having trouble reading closely today? The language of the bill that was posted and that you are too lazy to read shows that this does not specifically target Jews, it targets survivors of the Holocaust of which there were many types of victims. End of story. You can speculate about who politicians want to make happy but it's not relevant and doesn't have to do with what was being discussed with ROUTAN. Please try to focus.

 

[WelshBloke]

Having trouble reading closely today? The language of the bill that was posted and that you are too lazy to read shows that this does not specifically target Jews, it targets survivors of the Holocaust of which there were many types of victims. End of story. You can speculate about who politicians want to make happy but it's not relevant and doesn't have to do with what was being discussed with ROUTAN. Please try to focus.

Dude if you spin any harder your going to get sick.

Also.

That's going to make it harder for Routan and the other usual suspects to bitch about Jews getting special treatment...

The Jews are getting special treatment along with the other groups mentioned. I'm not sure what your beef with Routan is and I dont really care but saying the Jews are getting no special treatment out of this bill is asinine. The whole point of the bill is to give special treatment to a group of people, certain Jews being part of that group.

 

[Infohawk]

The Jews are getting special treatment along with the other groups mentioned. I'm not sure what your beef with Routan is and I dont really care but saying the Jews are getting no special treatment out of this bill is asinine. The whole point of the bill is to give special treatment to a group of people, certain Jews being part of that group.

Dude, have some dignity and admit you jumped into the middle of this thread and didn't really read what came before my post. Routan said "However, the usage of Holocaust to only describe the Jewish victims is a tradegy in itself." Well that's not what's happening here. That was my point when I posted what you quoted. You just read the bottom post and were confused about the context. It's okay. What's more concerning is your pride is stopping you from admitting that fact.

 

[Fern]

most people agree that those opposed to this have an agenda. Basically, there's no reason not to give the jews who had loved ones, family members, children killed under Hitler's regime; there's no reason not to give them a comfortable ride to the grave. No one is more deserving.

Sure there's a reason to oppose this. Quite a few actually.

The Nazi's wronged these people, not us. Why should we pay?

We've already paid a huge price, we gave many lives and much treasure to help defeat the Nazi's.

We're running a huge deficit with an huge national debt. We don't have the money.

If they have a claim on the Germans, let them make it in court.

There are charities that can help.

If we start here paying for crimes other nations did, where do we stop?

Fern

 

[Fern]

This is just a very thinly veiled attempt to further isolate the President from the Jewish voters.

What? Poor analysis, IMO.

Look, Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Chairwoman of the Democratic National Committee, who is responsible for reelecting Democrats certainly did NOT sponsor this bill to "further isolate" the President from Jewish voters.

She is working to get Obama reelected.

There's a slim possibility she is trying to isolate the Repub controlled Congress, but surely not Obama.

Both sponsors are from South Florida, lots of elderly Jewish voters there. Looks aimed at Jewish voters in their districts. I.e., campaign posturing and a bunch of baloney

Fern

 

[SandEagle]

most people agree that those opposed to this have an agenda. Basically, there's no reason not to give the jews who had loved ones, family members, children killed under Hitler's regime; there's no reason not to give them a comfortable ride to the grave. No one is more deserving.

horseshit. the only people with agendas are people like you who hope these bills pass without the American public noticing it. im sure 99% of the people who agree have no agenda. why not put it to ballot or publicly announce it? the backlash would be huge. what about 9/11 survivors and their families? ot the survivors of the Armenian genocide that moved to the US? Basically, there's no reason not to give ANYONE who had loved ones, family members, children killed under ANY regime; there's no reason not to give them a comfortable ride to the grave. No one is more deserving than another. you probably think the gentiles are less deserving than the 'chosen people'. i got news for you jack, this is AMERICA. AMERICANS 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

 

[woolfe9999]

Dude if you spin any harder your going to get sick.

Also.



The Jews are getting special treatment along with the other groups mentioned. I'm not sure what your beef with Routan is and I dont really care but saying the Jews are getting no special treatment out of this bill is asinine. The whole point of the bill is to give special treatment to a group of people, certain Jews being part of that group.

When Infohawk said "special treatment," he quite clearly meant in comparison to other groups who were victims of the Nazis, not in comparison to society in general. IF you had read Routon's post, you'd know that. You read his comment out of context and you are just flat wrong.

 

[woolfe9999]

horseshit. the only people with agendas are people like you who hope these bills pass without the American public noticing it. im sure 99% of the people who agree have no agenda. why not put it to ballot or publicly announce it? the backlash would be huge. what about 9/11 survivors and their families? ot the survivors of the Armenian genocide that moved to the US? Basically, there's no reason not to give ANYONE who had loved ones, family members, children killed under ANY regime; there's no reason not to give them a comfortable ride to the grave. No one is more deserving than another. you probably think the gentiles are less deserving than the 'chosen people'. i got news for you jack, this is AMERICA. AMERICANS 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

You think Holocaust survivors are the only interest group to ever have a bill proposed? You looked up legislation for 911 family and you're sure there hasn't been one? Do I need to start supplying links?

Frankly, your obsession with Jews is pathetic, as is your website source, with its reference to Holocaust survivors as "alleged survivors," its deliberate lie about the bill only benefitting Jewish survivors, its 911 conspiracy crap, and all the rest of the nonsense. You're certainly free to peddle your garbage here but you're going to get called on it every time.

 

[Fern]

horseshit. the only people with agendas are people like you who hope these bills pass without the American public noticing it. im sure 99% of the people who agree have no agenda.
-snip-

Thus, this is political grandstanding.

If they really wanted it passed it would be buried in a thousand page bill about something completely unrelated.

But it's a stand-alone bill. People will notice.

Fern

 

[Craig234]

This isn't about compensating victims of the holocaust. It's about charity for the victims of the holocaust.

It raises a tough question about when the German people under Hitler are 'perpetrators' versus 'victims'.

If you were a German under Hitler, you had few options but to 'serve the country'.

 

[SandEagle]

You think Holocaust survivors are the only interest group to ever have a bill proposed? You looked up legislation for 911 family and you're sure there hasn't been one? Do I need to start supplying links?

Frankly, your obsession with Jews is pathetic, as is your website source, with its reference to Holocaust survivors as "alleged survivors," its deliberate lie about the bill only benefitting Jewish survivors, its 911 conspiracy crap, and all the rest of the nonsense. You're certainly free to peddle your garbage here but you're going to get called on it every time.

i didnt see any for the families of Iraqi civilians killed overseas. i didnt see any for reparations to families of slavery victims. hmm, hate crime victims killed in the US? nada for their families. i have no obsession. i did not write the article. i peruse through all HR bills that get introduced and this one came across as one the public should know about since taxpayers are footing the bill. i didnt even read the article lol. came up in searches :sneaky:

 

[Infohawk]

Frankly, your obsession with Jews is pathetic, as is your website source, with its reference to Holocaust survivors as "alleged survivors," its deliberate lie about the bill only benefitting Jewish survivors, its 911 conspiracy crap, and all the rest of the nonsense. You're certainly free to peddle your garbage here but you're going to get called on it every time.

Nice job actually looking at the legislation and finding those nasty tidbits on whatever garbage blog he linked to.

The usual Israel bashers often repeat that being anti-Israel is not the same as being anti-simetic. That may be true, but it's telling that they're the first ones to race in here and complain about Jews when this has nothing to do with Israel (and technically nothing to do with Jews either although it's true that the largest segment of Holocaust survivors in the US are probably jewish.)

 

[woolfe9999]

What? Poor analysis, IMO.

Look, Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Chairwoman of the Democratic National Committee, who is responsible for reelecting Democrats certainly did NOT sponsor this bill to "further isolate" the President from Jewish voters.

She is working to get Obama reelected.

There's a slim possibility she is trying to isolate the Repub controlled Congress, but surely not Obama.

Both sponsors are from South Florida, lots of elderly Jewish voters there. Looks aimed at Jewish voters in their districts. I.e., campaign posturing and a bunch of baloney

Fern

Uh yeah, but one sponsor is a republican. Doesn't seem likely this is a strategy to damage republicans. I doubt a republican Congressman would co-sponsor if she felt that was the case. It's actually more than possible that both sponsors agree with what they're proposing. There are people out there who have strong feelings about this particular topic. I actually agree with your points about the bill itself and wouldn't support it myself. However, I'm not so sure about political motives for a piece of legislation that has bi-partisan co-sponsorship and has received little if any play in the media. Something with no media profile doesn't exactly make for good politics.

- wolf

 

[soccerballtux]

Sure there's a reason to oppose this. Quite a few actually.

The Nazi's wronged these people, not us. Why should we pay?

We've already paid a huge price, we gave many lives and much treasure to help defeat the Nazi's.

We're running a huge deficit with an huge national debt. We don't have the money.

If they have a claim on the Germans, let them make it in court.

There are charities that can help.

If we start here paying for crimes other nations did, where do we stop?

Fern

mainly because the rest of the world seems to hate jews for whatever reason.