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Holocaust and Jewish People

E

envy me

Golden Member

Just wondering what other people's opinions on this topic are. Everytime I hear someone talking about the holocaust, the first thing that is mentioned is related to jewish people. What happened in WW2 was a terrible thing but every mention of WW2 has to do with how many jewish people were killed. I agree, what happened was a terrible atrocity and should not ever happen again, but what about all the non-jews that lost their lives in WW2. Millions of japanese people died when nuclear bombs were sent out, plus all of the other people involved. And the thing that bothers me the most is this. I am from Canada and recently there was a holocaust denier Ernst Zundel that was deported to Germany because of his views on the what had happened during the holocaust. I for one do not agree at all with what he beleived in, but isn't it his right to beleive what he wants? And in Isreal, IIRC they had passed a law that would punish anyone who denied the "official" holocaust story, it makes me think. Why would someone go to jail just because they beleive something in history didn't happen the way people say it did? If someone denies it and gets 11 months of solitary confinement and then gets deported from the country, it makes you wonder, if he was just a loonatic that beleive that no one would care, but if the country deported him without any evidence then it makes you think that SOMEONE is hiding SOMETHING and doesn't want the message spread.

Nobody went to jail for saying Elvis is still alive. After what I have read about the situation regarding this man's deportation it makes me think, why would they deport someone who questioned what happened? The truth doesn't need any laws to support it.

Does it?

 
I am from Canada and recently there was a holocaust denier Ernst Zundel that was deported to Germany because of his views on the what had happened during the holocaust. I for one do not agree at all with what he beleived in, but isn't it his right to beleive what he wants? And in Isreal, IIRC they had passed a law that would punish anyone who denied the "official" holocaust story, it makes me think. Why would someone go to jail just because they beleive something in history didn't happen the way people say it did?
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If he was deported just for his opinion, then it's wrong and I wouldn't find it too surprising that a place like Canada would do such a thing. There is a large brainwashing mentality going on there. However, I'm not sure if you're telling the whole story in regards to this one case.
 

Don't take my word for it.. Do research and judge for yourself. Ernst Zundel had crazy beleifs, but he was not a violent person, he had not harmed anyone, and he did not endorse violence. His only crime was for questioning something that happened years ago. That is why I find it a little suspicious. If he was senile with wild beleifs why would anyone care what he thought or said?
 
Originally posted by: envy me

Just wondering what other people's opinions on this topic are. Everytime I hear someone talking about the holocaust, the first thing that is mentioned is related to jewish people. What happened in WW2 was a terrible thing but every mention of WW2 has to do with how many jewish people were killed. I agree, what happened was a terrible atrocity and should not ever happen again, but what about all the non-jews that lost their lives in WW2. Millions of japanese people died when nuclear bombs were sent out, plus all of the other people involved. And the thing that bothers me the most is this. I am from Canada and recently there was a holocaust denier Ernst Zundel that was deported to Germany because of his views on the what had happened during the holocaust. I for one do not agree at all with what he beleived in, but isn't it his right to beleive what he wants? And in Isreal, IIRC they had passed a law that would punish anyone who denied the "official" holocaust story, it makes me think. Why would someone go to jail just because they beleive something in history didn't happen the way people say it did? If someone denies it and gets 11 months of solitary confinement and then gets deported from the country, it makes you wonder, if he was just a loonatic that beleive that no one would care, but if the country deported him without any evidence then it makes you think that SOMEONE is hiding SOMETHING and doesn't want the message spread.

Nobody went to jail for saying Elvis is still alive. After what I have read about the situation regarding this man's deportation it makes me think, why would they deport someone who questioned what happened? The truth doesn't need any laws to support it.

Does it?
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Frankly you BETTER start by supporting your claims, which you are not doing right now. Are you SURE the man in Canada was deported for holocaust denial, because there are plenty of holocaust deniers in Canada who have nothing happen to them despite what they say. I also haven't heard about a law of that sort in Israel and need to hear the details.

The only cases I'm aware of laws of that sort are in Europe, where they have been primarily supported by non-Jews. The concern is that denying the holcaust, people who support the Nazis can begin to behabilitate their image, possibly eventually leading to a resurgance of Nazism in Europe. When you actually look at the majority of holcaust deniers and what they use to back up their lacks, its complete bs usually in conjunction with demolishing strawmen arguments they invented in the first place.
 
Originally posted by: envy me

Don't take my word for it.. Do research and judge for yourself. Ernst Zundel had crazy beleifs, but he was not a violent person, he had not harmed anyone, and he did not endorse violence. His only crime was for questioning something that happened years ago. That is why I find it a little suspicious. If he was senile with wild beleifs why would anyone care what he thought or said?
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And just why can't you link to him yourself, so we can evaluate what you are talking about more easily rather than just taking your word for it?
 

I don't have a problem.. All I'm saying is that once someone claims 6 million jews did not die they get deported. I sympathize for all victims of WW2, but if YOU beleive that it didn't happen the way it did, should you be sent to jail for it??? That is like saying 2000+ American's didn't die while trying to liberate Iraq. Should I be sent to jail and deported because I said that... No.. People are entitled to their beleifs, no matter how outrageous they are, as long as they are not harming anyone.

 
Originally posted by: envy me
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Zundel
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/zundel/
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1101333207257_43/?hub=Canada

Just three articles.. Judge for yourself.
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Yup, it looks like he has in fact been legally allowed to deny the holocaust, the law at one time that he got prosecuted for with that as the offense got struck down by the Canadian Surpreme Court. He got in trouble for inciting racial hatred in combination with his links to violent white supremacist groups. Its worth noting, that he has definately not confined his activities towards just being against Jews, but against other non-white minorities as well. You can question if Canadian laws should be closer to the US's with a blanket protection on free speach that doesn't incite violence, but that's really a different topic than the one you started.
 
So what about the two twin girls (the ones who sing about pro white propaganda) from America... Why aren't they in jail for being against non-whites???

 
He violated a German law and he is a German citizen, what's the big deal? Read your own links, it explains why it was possible to send him back to Germany.
 
Here's some more info on the guy by the way.

He was fixated on U.F.O.'s, believing them to be Nazi secret weapons based somewhere in Antarctica. He also promoted a new edition of Henry Ford's The International Jew in Liberty Bell.[3] An article in the January 1977 issue of White Power Report entitled "Our New Emblem: The Best of Two Worlds" (referring to a design that merged a swastika and the American flag) conveys the tone of Zundel's work during this time...

In February 2005, capping two years of legal proceedings, Canadian Federal Court Justice Pierre Blais ruled that Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel may reasonably be described as a threat to the security of Canada; under the country's immigration laws he is therefore subject to deportation to his native Germany. Zundel is not a citizen of Canada.

In a scathing 63-page decision, Justice Blais described Zundel as a hypocrite who cultivates a pacifist public image while guiding, aiding and supporting neo-Nazi groups around the world, including some that "propagate violent messages of hate" and work to accomplish "the destruction of governments and multicultural societies."

Justice Blais' ruling was not subject to appeal. Canada deported Zundel to his native Germany in March 2005.
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I just find it very sad that you beleive that. Laws are laws, but if you beleive you should be tried just because of your beleifs, well... isn't that the same thing that happened with the Christian religion, Jesus being punished for his beleifs??

 
Originally posted by: envy me
So what about the two twin girls (the ones who sing about pro white propaganda) from America... Why aren't they in jail for being against non-whites???
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Obviously because the US has different laws than Canada. Zundel was deported from the US due to immigration violations.
 
Originally posted by: envy me

I just find it very sad that you beleive that. Laws are laws, but if you beleive you should be tried just because of your beleifs, well... isn't that the same thing that happened with the Christian religion, Jesus being punished for his beleifs??
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Jesus was Jewish, so I guess your complaint is now 6 million + one.
 
Originally posted by: Aegeon
Originally posted by: envy me
So what about the two twin girls (the ones who sing about pro white propaganda) from America... Why aren't they in jail for being against non-whites???
Click to expand...
Obviously because the US has different laws than Canada. Zundel was deported from the US due to immigration violations.
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Thats bureaucracy for you
 
Originally posted by: envy me

I just find it very sad that you beleive that. Laws are laws, but if you beleive you should be tried just because of your beleifs, well... isn't that the same thing that happened with the Christian religion, Jesus being punished for his beleifs??
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You can debate the European laws, but given Zundel has repeatedly been involved with actively preaching hatred against other racial groups, clearly his situation is very different than that of Jesus, at least if you take the biblical account of Jesus as your basis for your understanding of him.
 
Originally posted by: Strk
Originally posted by: envy me

I just find it very sad that you beleive that. Laws are laws, but if you beleive you should be tried just because of your beleifs, well... isn't that the same thing that happened with the Christian religion, Jesus being punished for his beleifs??
Click to expand...

Jesus was Jewish, so I guess your complaint is now 6 million + one.
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Yes I know that... And he was prosecuted for his beleifs, however outrageous they might have been at the time.. Don't get me wrong, I'm not Anti-Jewish, I'm just making a comparison.

 
Originally posted by: Aegeon
Originally posted by: envy me

I just find it very sad that you beleive that. Laws are laws, but if you beleive you should be tried just because of your beleifs, well... isn't that the same thing that happened with the Christian religion, Jesus being punished for his beleifs??
Click to expand...
You can debate the European laws, but given Zundel has repeatedly been involved with actively preaching hatred against other racial groups, clearly his situation is very different than that of Jesus, at least if you take the biblical account of Jesus as your basis for your understanding of him.
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Well there are a lot of people that preach hatred in America, the KKK, the two twins I mentioned earlier, and what about slavery. I think its just all messed up. I agree if I don't like your opinions on something ok, I can't change them, but you are entitled to them. Thats what makes a democracy no? People thinking for themselves and having a right to their own beleifs. Regardless, as crazy as this man was, he should not have been deported, he was a senior citizen, he was no threat to anyone.

 
Originally posted by: envy me

Just wondering what other people's opinions on this topic are. Everytime I hear someone talking about the holocaust, the first thing that is mentioned is related to jewish people. What happened in WW2 was a terrible thing but every mention of WW2 has to do with how many jewish people were killed. I agree, what happened was a terrible atrocity and should not ever happen again, but what about all the non-jews that lost their lives in WW2.
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You should have stopped right there. Your next sentence goes way off the point.
Millions of japanese people died when nuclear bombs were sent out, plus all of the other people involved.
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Many others were targeted for annhilation by Hitler and the nazis, including gypsies, gays and any other "non-arian" group that would serve as scapegoats for their madness. The Japanese were the aggressors in their part of the war. They attacked the U.S., and we had no choice but to fight. The Japanese also attacked, imprisoned and enslaved others in Asia, including China and Korea before they extended their attacks to take on the U.S.

The right and wrong of our final choice of weapons was the first use of nuclear bomb is an entirely other subject, but in no way is it the same kind of moral attrocity as the murder carried out by the Germans in WW II.
And the thing that bothers me the most is this. I am from Canada and recently there was a holocaust denier Ernst Zundel that was deported to Germany because of his views on the what had happened during the holocaust. I for one do not agree at all with what he beleived in, but isn't it his right to beleive what he wants? And in Isreal, IIRC they had passed a law that would punish anyone who denied the "official" holocaust story, it makes me think. Why would someone go to jail just because they beleive something in history didn't happen the way people say it did? If someone denies it and gets 11 months of solitary confinement and then gets deported from the country, it makes you wonder, if he was just a loonatic that beleive that no one would care, but if the country deported him without any evidence then it makes you think that SOMEONE is hiding SOMETHING and doesn't want the message spread.
Click to expand...
Take it up with the countries with those laws. Israel bars denying the holocaust because they never want to allow such denial to have a chance of being believed. If you don't think it can happen, ask any Armenian if they agree with Turkey's denial of their claims of a holocaust against them. The Germans and Austrians outlawed such denials because they never want to allow their own people to forget their ancestors were party to such murderous brutality or to give any crediblity to any excuses offered for it
Nobody went to jail for saying Elvis is still alive. After what I have read about the situation regarding this man's deportation it makes me think, why would they deport someone who questioned what happened? The truth doesn't need any laws to support it.

Does it?
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There's no accounting for the depths of stupidity or meanness to which a society can sink when following a leader who is so inclined. We may have to live with some of the same guilt when the crimes of the Bush administration are fully disclosed.
 
Originally posted by: envy me

then why was he deported to Canada from the US and not to Germany from the beginning?
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His residency status in Canada was apparently in dispute at the time, which is at least my understanding of the primary reason he was deported there. It wasn't clearly he had no legitimate legal claims to remain in Canada. I also believe his preference was to be deported to Canada, so you could say in some ways the US legal system was being helpful to him.
 
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