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Hollywood calls for military intervention in Darfur.

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Star power moves in to call for military intervention in Darfur
NEW YORK; OTTAWA - Hollywood activism takes to the corridors of the United Nations today as actor George Clooney appears before the UN Security Council to call for military intervention in Sudan's western Darfur region.

The Oscar winner wants the Council to act on the Canadian-promoted principle of Responsibility to Protect, which states the world body should act to protect civilians if their government can't or won't. He will be joined by Holocaust survivor and human rights activist and author Elie Wiesel.

Other activist groups plan rallies in 32 countries Sunday - including Canada - in support a UN deployment.

''The lesson we learned from Rwanda is that the United Nations has a responsibility to protect,'' David Phillips, executive director of The Elie Wiesel Foundation for Humanity, said of the 1994 genocide that claimed up to 800,000 lives.

The council has both adopted the Responsibility to Protect principle and passed a resolution saying UN troops should be sent to Darfur to relieve an African Union force that has been unable to prevent rapes, killings and displacement of black Sudanese.

The three-year-old crisis has seen as many as two million people displaced and at least 200,000 killed in ethnic strife.

[Canadian Senator Romeo] Dallaire wants Canada to contribute some 600 troops to a large international force of more than 40,000 to bring peace to the western region of Sudan that is the size of France.

In New York, however, UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan said Wednesday a UN deployment to Darfur is unlikely because potential troop contributors are either committed elsewhere, or have been rattled by Sudan's threats to fight them in the same way insurgents in Iraq are opposing American-led coalition forces there.

''Governments keep telling us we are fully stretched,'' Annan said at a press conference. ''But the Sudanese have also been saying, 'If you want to have another Iraq, come.' And this has scared away some governments.''
While Sudan could certainly use intervention (I know, not that any of us want to have to put our nation's soldiers on the line for people who don't seem to want peace), you have to kind of scratch your head at another aspect of this proposed action...
Yes, the dictatorship repeatedly launched genocidal attacks on tribal rebels. Indeed, the dictator exploited tribal rivalries to attack dissident bases and split opposition leadership. The dictatorship murdered men, women and children by the hundreds of thousands, despite objections by the United States, Great Britain and the United Nations. The dictatorship fueled its war with billions in petrodollars, while tens of thousands of children and elderly citizens lacked basic medical care.

True, most of the regime?s victims are Muslims. Russia, China and France played ambiguous political roles, because of financial interests in the region. And deplore this sad fact: Efforts made by international military forces to protect the vulnerable ethnic groups from the regime?s depredations were limited and insufficient.

The dictatorship maintained contact with terrorist organizations. In retrospect, the dictatorship may not have produced weapons of mass destruction ? but as the secretary of defense said, given the regime?s track record for mass murder and terror, he?d still order the attack.

I have just described Sudan. For readers who may not know the geography and demography, a terrible genocide directed by the Sudanese government is occurring in Sudan?s western Darfur region. George Clooney essentially wants the United States and United Nations to invade Darfur to stop the genocide.

However, I?ve also sketched Saddam Hussein?s Iraq. Clooney and his clan object to the coalition war in Iraq.

Hypocritical?
-- Why Sudan But Not Iraq?
 
I'm having a hard time seeing this as hypocritical. The only known act of genocide by Saddam Hussein (as distinguished from killing of dissidents here and there, which was definitely done on a regular basis) was his gassing of the Kurds - he did this at a time he was (illegally) on the payroll of the Reagan and first Bush administrations, using chemicals he purchased from the US with the approval of the White House. It hardly seems like a plausible rationale for OIF, particularly given that Desert Storm had happened in the interim.

The more credible question, IMO, is why Iraq but not Sudan? Sudan, unlike Iraq, was in fact a sponsor and host of al Qaeda, and there is a bona fide genocide ongoing there. What had Iraq done that had any relevance to the US, that would justify attacking it over Sudan? If anything I think it's hypocritical to support war in Iraq but not Sudan.
 
Originally posted by: DonVito
I'm having a hard time seeing this as hypocritical. The only known act of genocide by Saddam Hussein (as distinguished from killing of dissidents here and there, which was definitely done on a regular basis) was his gassing of the Kurds - he did this at a time he was (illegally) on the payroll of the Reagan and first Bush administrations, using chemicals he purchased from the US with the approval of the White House. It hardly seems like a plausible rationale for OIF, particularly given that Desert Storm had happened in the interim.

The more credible question, IMO, is why Iraq but not Sudan? Sudan, unlike Iraq, was in fact a sponsor and host of al Qaeda, and there is a bona fide genocide ongoing there. What had Iraq done that had any relevance to the US, that would justify attacking it over Sudan? If anything I think it's hypocritical to support war in Iraq but not Sudan.


Well said.
 
I don't really think the case for military intervention should solely be limited to acts of genocide, but I think we should recognize a weak argument when a statement has to read "the only know act of genocide by Saddam Hussein..." Aw, shucks, only one? Let's make that one a mulligan. 😛 And the source of the funds or equipment, though I believe they're actually of German and French origin, is hardly justification to not intervene either.

I'd think being an advocate of both or neither is the proper stance. I've never thought that Hussein concerned the war against terror directly, but in a greater sense he was fairly obviously a threat to the security of various Western nations. The level of immediacy is debatable, but having left Iraq alone I wouldn't really be relishing the day that a nuke-ready Hussein gave pan-Middle Eastern domination another go.
 
Originally posted by: DonVito
I'm having a hard time seeing this as hypocritical. The only known act of genocide by Saddam Hussein (as distinguished from killing of dissidents here and there, which was definitely done on a regular basis) was his gassing of the Kurds - he did this at a time he was (illegally) on the payroll of the Reagan and first Bush administrations, using chemicals he purchased from the US with the approval of the White House. It hardly seems like a plausible rationale for OIF, particularly given that Desert Storm had happened in the interim.

The more credible question, IMO, is why Iraq but not Sudan? Sudan, unlike Iraq, was in fact a sponsor and host of al Qaeda, and there is a bona fide genocide ongoing there. What had Iraq done that had any relevance to the US, that would justify attacking it over Sudan? If anything I think it's hypocritical to support war in Iraq but not Sudan.

So does everyone get a "freebie" genocide when they run a country?
 
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: DonVito
I'm having a hard time seeing this as hypocritical. The only known act of genocide by Saddam Hussein (as distinguished from killing of dissidents here and there, which was definitely done on a regular basis) was his gassing of the Kurds - he did this at a time he was (illegally) on the payroll of the Reagan and first Bush administrations, using chemicals he purchased from the US with the approval of the White House. It hardly seems like a plausible rationale for OIF, particularly given that Desert Storm had happened in the interim.

The more credible question, IMO, is why Iraq but not Sudan? Sudan, unlike Iraq, was in fact a sponsor and host of al Qaeda, and there is a bona fide genocide ongoing there. What had Iraq done that had any relevance to the US, that would justify attacking it over Sudan? If anything I think it's hypocritical to support war in Iraq but not Sudan.

So does everyone get a "freebie" genocide when they run a country?


Come on it was only political dissidents here and there above the gassinf o kurds and Iranians, just a few hundred thousand either way, nothing to worry about.


 
Originally posted by: DonVito
I'm having a hard time seeing this as hypocritical. The only known act of genocide by Saddam Hussein (as distinguished from killing of dissidents here and there, which was definitely done on a regular basis) was his gassing of the Kurds - he did this at a time he was (illegally) on the payroll of the Reagan and first Bush administrations, using chemicals he purchased from the US with the approval of the White House. It hardly seems like a plausible rationale for OIF, particularly given that Desert Storm had happened in the interim.

The more credible question, IMO, is why Iraq but not Sudan? Sudan, unlike Iraq, was in fact a sponsor and host of al Qaeda, and there is a bona fide genocide ongoing there. What had Iraq done that had any relevance to the US, that would justify attacking it over Sudan? If anything I think it's hypocritical to support war in Iraq but not Sudan.

I can't support war in any fashion. However I can see actual valid reasoning to support war in Sudan as opposed to absolutely none to support war in Iraq.
 
Originally posted by: thraashman
I can't support war in any fashion. However I can see actual valid reasoning to support war in Sudan as opposed to absolutely none to support war in Iraq.
Do you mind explaining your reasons? I don't mind revising my position on an issue if the reasons are compelling enough.
 
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: DonVito
I'm having a hard time seeing this as hypocritical. The only known act of genocide by Saddam Hussein (as distinguished from killing of dissidents here and there, which was definitely done on a regular basis) was his gassing of the Kurds - he did this at a time he was (illegally) on the payroll of the Reagan and first Bush administrations, using chemicals he purchased from the US with the approval of the White House. It hardly seems like a plausible rationale for OIF, particularly given that Desert Storm had happened in the interim.

The more credible question, IMO, is why Iraq but not Sudan? Sudan, unlike Iraq, was in fact a sponsor and host of al Qaeda, and there is a bona fide genocide ongoing there. What had Iraq done that had any relevance to the US, that would justify attacking it over Sudan? If anything I think it's hypocritical to support war in Iraq but not Sudan.

So does everyone get a "freebie" genocide when they run a country?

That's not what I said. What I said is, we knew full well SH had gassed the Kurds, and the GHWB administration continued to illegally funnel money to him (we fed both sides of the Iran/Iraq conflict, presumably to keep them both occupied). We THEN conducted Desert Storm, and chose to leave SH in power.

I don't think it makes any sense at all to claim that his gassing the Kurds is, 15 years and one war later, a plausible justification for Operation Iraqi Freedom. It's not as though we were acting to protect anyone - those Kurds had died 15 years earlier. We have had, during the entire GWB administration, an opportunity to stem an ongoing genocide in Sudan and have chosen not to do so, in spite of that country's known ties to al Qaeda.
 
Originally posted by: yllus
Hollywood calls for military intervention in Darfur.
If you start with the persumptions that U.S. participation in such an action could be justified for humanitarian purposes under U.S. and international law, you'd have to finish by throwing up your hands in disgust and frustration because the Commando in Chief has already squandered our military resources in Iraq. 🙁
 
Invading Darfur makes more sense simply because it is a genocide that's ongoing. Intervening will have a psoitive affect, unlike invading Iraq.

AFAIK(can tell) the main legal action against Saddam is over the long since past Kurd gassings/genocide. Certainly he deserves justice for that action, but the invasion of Iraq was way too late to actually change the outcome.
 
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: yllus
Hollywood calls for military intervention in Darfur.
If you start with the persumptions that U.S. participation in such an action could be justified for humanitarian purposes under U.S. and international law, you'd have to finish by throwing up your hands in disgust and frustration because the Commando in Chief has already squandered our military resources in Iraq. 🙁

And the guy before him was too busy getting head to do anything then. This has been a problem for a looooooong time.
 
Originally posted by: XMan

And the guy before him was too busy getting head to do anything then. This has been a problem for a looooooong time.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised by gratuitious pokes at Bill Clinton (no pun intended), since they're such a bread-and-butter staple in the Bush camp's rhetorical pantry, but the Darfur horror didn't begin until until after Bush started the war in Iraq. You simply can't credibly blame Clinton for this one, XMan.
 
Originally posted by: DonVito
I'm having a hard time seeing this as hypocritical. The only known act of genocide by Saddam Hussein (as distinguished from killing of dissidents here and there, which was definitely done on a regular basis) was his gassing of the Kurds - he did this at a time he was (illegally) on the payroll of the Reagan and first Bush administrations, using chemicals he purchased from the US with the approval of the White House. It hardly seems like a plausible rationale for OIF, particularly given that Desert Storm had happened in the interim.

The more credible question, IMO, is why Iraq but not Sudan? Sudan, unlike Iraq, was in fact a sponsor and host of al Qaeda, and there is a bona fide genocide ongoing there. What had Iraq done that had any relevance to the US, that would justify attacking it over Sudan? If anything I think it's hypocritical to support war in Iraq but not Sudan.

Nice logic... Well the only know act of genocide commited by Hitler was killed a few million Jews, guess we should just forget about that huh?
 
Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: XMan

And the guy before him was too busy getting head to do anything then. This has been a problem for a looooooong time.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised by gratuitious pokes at Bill Clinton (no pun intended), since they're such a bread-and-butter staple in the Bush camp's rhetorical pantry, but the Darfur horror didn't begin until until after Bush started the war in Iraq. You simply can't credibly blame Clinton for this one, XMan.

You might want to check your facts again. Sudan's been in a state of war for much of the last five decades. As I said, this is no recent developement. My comment was more towards Harvey, who seemed to intimate that W was solely responsible. The world at large has been ignoring the problem for fifty plus years.
 
Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Nice logic... Well the only know act of genocide commited by Hitler was killed a few million Jews, guess we should just forget about that huh?

I addressed this above - here is my post again, since you apparently couldn't be bothered to read it the first time:

That's not what I said. What I said is, we knew full well SH had gassed the Kurds, and the GHWB administration continued to illegally funnel money to him (we fed both sides of the Iran/Iraq conflict, presumably to keep them both occupied). We THEN conducted Desert Storm, and chose to leave SH in power.

I don't think it makes any sense at all to claim that his gassing the Kurds is, 15 years and one war later, a plausible justification for Operation Iraqi Freedom. It's not as though we were acting to protect anyone - those Kurds had died 15 years earlier. We have had, during the entire GWB administration, an opportunity to stem an ongoing genocide in Sudan and have chosen not to do so, in spite of that country's known ties to al Qaeda.

First of all, Hitler killed millions - Saddam's gassing killed a few thousand. That is, of course, not to say it wasn't an awful act, but the quantum is completely different. Moreover, as I said above, he was a tacit ally of the US when he did it, and Reagan and GHWB kept funneling money to him regardless, and allowed him to stay in office during Desert Storm. It might be the thinnest rationale offered by the neoconservatives (among a cast of really really thin ones) for OIF IMO.
 
Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: jrenz
So does everyone get a "freebie" genocide when they run a country?
That's not what I said. What I said is, we knew full well SH had gassed the Kurds, and the GHWB administration continued to illegally funnel money to him (we fed both sides of the Iran/Iraq conflict, presumably to keep them both occupied). We THEN conducted Desert Storm, and chose to leave SH in power.

I don't think it makes any sense at all to claim that his gassing the Kurds is, 15 years and one war later, a plausible justification for Operation Iraqi Freedom. It's not as though we were acting to protect anyone - those Kurds had died 15 years earlier. We have had, during the entire GWB administration, an opportunity to stem an ongoing genocide in Sudan and have chosen not to do so, in spite of that country's known ties to al Qaeda.
The difference between then and now, as cliche as it's bound to sound, is 9/11. Since that day there's a renewed sense of urgency in government when it comes to removing security threats; you don't have to posture and say it's because the people in government are now taking their duties more responsibly, just that national security is now expectation numero uno of the people who vote them in and keep them in power.

General Schwarzkopf wrote in his autobiography at some length about the decision to not take to the streets in Baghdad and take Hussein down once and for all. The gist of the message was that it wasn't the mission he had been instructed to carry out, and that it would have led to more casualties than he believed the politicos thought were acceptable to the American public. Have those things changed? I would imagine so.

Once you've committed acts like Hussein's, the justification is set for someone to pull the guy off his throne - no expiration date. That combined with an already demonstrated hostility to the West, an already demostrated hostity to other surrounding nations, the widespread belief at the time that Hussein's WMD did exist... None of this absolves the right placed blame on the Bush Administration for staking the war on the reasons it did and having them come up false, but I definitely don't consider the action a mistake.

(BTW: Am I still supposed to continue to refer to a general who's since retired as a general? Is it "Mr." now? "General ___, Ret."?)
 
what happened to the "We can't police the entire world" mentality? Wasn't that an argument from the anti-war crowd?

I would rather see our troops in a supportive role of policing our borders...BOTH of them...rather than sending them off.
 
Originally posted by: yllus
The difference between then and now, as cliche as it's bound to sound, is 9/11. Since that day there's a renewed sense of urgency in government when it comes to removing security threats; you don't have to posture and say it's because the people in government are now taking their duties more responsibly, just that national security is now expectation numero uno of the people who vote them in and keep them in power.

General Schwarzkopf wrote in his autobiography at some length about the decision to not take to the streets in Baghdad and take Hussein down once and for all. The gist of the message was that it wasn't the mission he had been instructed to carry out, and that it would have led to more casualties than he believed the politicos thought were acceptable to the American public. Have those things changed? I would imagine so.

Once you've committed acts like Hussein's, the justification is set for someone to pull the guy off his throne - no expiration date. That combined with an already demonstrated hostility to the West, an already demostrated hostity to other surrounding nations, the widespread belief at the time that Hussein's WMD did exist... None of this absolves the right placed blame on the Bush Administration for staking the war on the reasons it did and having them come up false, but I definitely don't consider the action a mistake.

(BTW: Am I still supposed to continue to refer to a general who's since retired as a general? Is it "Mr." now? "General ___, Ret."?)

The ", Ret." is optional, but like the President, a retired general is still a general.

I am replying mostly to say that I appreciate your candor and can respect your take on the war, though I don't share your sentiments. It seems to me that yes, there were legitimate reasons (albeit too-thin ones IMO) for attacking Iraq, but to the extent we were going to make a pre-emptive strike against another country (something I think is almost never wise), we should have picked one with demonstrable ties to anti-American terrorism, particularly since OIF was nominally part of the "war on terror."

I personally think the PNAC philosophy has been proven stupid (at least as executed by Rumsfeld et al), but in any case I think the American public deserved to know WHY we were going to war in Iraq - I simply don't think there's a crumb of doubt that the White House misled us about what their actual agenda was. It had exactly nothing to do with Iraq itself posing a security threat to the US (not surprisingly, in that they didn't, at all).
 
Originally posted by: yllus
I don't really think the case for military intervention should solely be limited to acts of genocide, but I think we should recognize a weak argument when a statement has to read "the only know act of genocide by Saddam Hussein..." Aw, shucks, only one? Let's make that one a mulligan. 😛

Halabja poison gas attack

Almost all current accounts of the incident regard Iraq as the party responsible for the gas attack, which occurred during the Iran-Iraq War. The war between Iran and Iraq was in its eighth year when, on March 16 and 17, 1988, Iraq dropped poison gas on the Kurdish city of Halabja, then held by Iranian troops and Iraqi Kurdish guerrillas allied with Tehran; throughout the war, Iran had supplied the Iraqi Kurdish rebels with safe haven and other military support.

This almost makes it sound like Saddam was guilty of taking out some civilians while battling some terrorists and enemies of Iraq. Kinda of like Israel and Lebannon or even U.S. vs Fallujah

The most authoritative investigation into responsibility for the Halabja massacre, by Dr Jean Pascal Zanders, Project Leader of the Chemical and Biological Warfare Project at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) concluded that Iraq was the culprit, and not Iran.

Some debate existed, however, over the question of whether Iraq was really the responsible party. The U.S. State Department, in the immediate aftermath of the incident, instructed its diplomats to say that Iran was partly to blame.

A preliminary Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) study at the time concluded, apparently by determining the chemicals used by looking at images of the victims, that it was in fact Iran that was responsible for the attack, an assessment which was used subsequently by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) for much of the early 1990's. The CIA's senior political analyst for the Iran-Iraq war, Stephen C. Pelletiere, co-authored an unclassified analysis of the war [1] which contained a brief summary of the DIA study's key points. In a January 31, 2003 New York Times [2] opinion piece, Pelletiere summarized the DIA's findings and noted that because of the DIA's conclusion there was not sufficient evidence to definitively determine whether Iraq or Iran was responsible. Pelletiere also felt that the administration of George W. Bush was not being forthright when squarely placing blame on Iraq, since it contradicted the conclusion of the DIA study. However the DIA's final position on the attack was in fact much less certain than this preliminary report suggests, with its final conclusions, in June 2003, asserting just that there was insufficient evidence, but concluding that "Iraq ..used chemical weapons against Kurdish civilians in 1988" [3]. The CIA altered its position radically in the late 1990s and cited Halabja frequently in its evidence of WMD before the 2003 invasion [4]

Another extensive analysis of the incident is contained in a post [5] to the Campaign Against Sanctions on Iraq electronic mailing list by Cambridge political theorist Glen Rangwala. Rangwala describes how the attack followed the occupation of the city by Iranian and pro-Iranian forces, leading to the conclusion that the gassing was an attack on these forces by the Iraqis. Rangwala also cites studies done by non-governmental organizations that concluded different chemicals were used than the ones cited in the DIA study. Rangwala's analysis effectively sums up the current prevailing view of the event, that Iraq was indeed responsible for the attack on Halabja, and that the DIA analysis is in error. This evidence backed up by extensive witness testimony gathered by organisations like Human Rights Watch[6] and Indict [7] has, more recently, added to the growing evidence that the initial DIA appraisal of the events was mistaken.

The most categorical proof is the many further well-documented incidents of deliberate attacks on Kurdish civilians occurring at the same time throughout Kurdish northern Iraq also perpetrated without doubt by Iraqi forces during the Al-Anfal Campaign. Joost Hiltermann, who was the principal researcher for the Human Rights Watch between 1992-1994, conducted a 2 year study, including a field investigation in northern Iraq, capturing Iraqi government documents in the process. This research culminated in Iraq's Crime of Genocide: The Anfal Campaign Against the Kurds (by G. Black, Yale Univ. Press, 1995). According to Hiltermann, the literature on the Iran-Iraq war reflects a number of allegations of CW use by Iran, but these are "marred by a lack of specificity as to time and place, and the failure to provide any sort of evidence". (Potter, p.153) He calls these allegations "mere assertions" and adds: "no persuasive evidence of the claim that Iran was the primary culprit was ever presented".


In November, 2004, the U.S military launched a massive assault on the city. Estimates by one Iraqi N.G.O puts the number of deaths in the assault at 4000-6000. There were reports that cluster bombs and white phosphorous, a controversial incendiary weapon, were used on the city. Initially the Pentagon denied the use of the latter weapon but later, after testimony by U.S soldiers, admitted using it.[4] A State Department official had called earlier reports of cluster bomb use "totally false," but there was no official statement on the events of November, which had been reported in several sources



 
Originally posted by: Stunt
Why can't Hollywood advocate good movies instead? 🙁

THANK YOU!!!

How about the humanitarian crisis that was "Little Man" or "Lady in the Water"
Heck, even the "good" movies this summer weren't so good.
 
Some years from now there will be a report on France's or another European country's involvement with the Darfur genocide. They failed in Rwanda and are trying someplace new.
 
If we do go into Darfur, the liberals will immediately call nation building on Bush, and it will be used against the conservatives in the next election. And if Liberals get into office, it will quickly become a sticking point against a Dem president. The truth of the matter is that the American people simply do not have the backbone to stand behind wars, no matter how necessary. The only exception would be a war on our own soil, but without that impetus we simply do not have the stomach to do what is necessary and stand behind our military and leaders for the greater good of the world.
 
No Oil in Darfur = No Money to be ripped off their land for Corporations = no incentive to send troops.

Sorry Darfur
 
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