Hold the presses on Hamas v. Fatah

[imported_dna]

I love your opening lines: always character assasination right off the start. The endings are also great: blab about holocaust, guilt trips, and nothing related to what I said. Exquisite work, as usual.

Now, if you'd tear yourself away from your reply-template, perhaps you could be inconvenienced with minor details like the existance of Palestinian terrorism well before 1967, so it would pretty hard to say that an "imposed situation" has created it. The only thing imposed has been the refugee camps kept by the Jordanians and Egyptians for almost 20 years, until Israel took over the area -- so much for brotherly love.

Well, we see that love in Lebanon as well: refguee camps after 60 years.
I've asked this not long ago: any WW2 refugees still around?

Again, nice job with the holocaust-guilt-trip mambo-jambo; better luck next time.

 

[BMW540I6speed]

the extent of hamas' electoral victory from last year...can be overstated.

Basically, in the elections to the Palestinian legislature, everyone had two votes. In one, which determine half the seats, you just chose which party you liked best. Hamas won this but it was very close (44 percent to 41 percent).

Each voter also had to cast votes for their local representatives. In these races, Fatah was unable to settle on a list of candidates, so there were too many Fatah candidates running; the Fatah vote was spread out, to Hamas' benefit. That's why Hamas ended up with such a landslide overall (74 legislative seats vs. Fatah's 45).

Not that Hamas doesn't have substantial popular support, but it made that support go further thanks to its discipline and Fatah's chaotic incompetence. Emblematic of a lot of things, really.

This is only peripherally related, but I also "laugh" when I see refrences to Hamas' "landslide victory."

With the same voting support that was actually displayed in the election, Fatah probably could have cobbled together a pro-Oslo front with smaller parties if it had just had a decent campaign strategist.

 

[Craig234]

BMW, one interesting issue is the economic pressure from other countries on the Palastenians' vote.

I wonder how Americans would like to have their economic situation drastically affected by other countries telling them who to vote for, or else. And I wonder how many Americans would vote for who they were told to, to get the economic benefit.

While you make the point that some things show less Hamas support, it's also the case that the economic pressure by other countries probably increases Fatah's vote artifically.

Giving aid or not is the decision of the nation giving; but it's anti-democracy to go to the point of economic blackmail to force the installation of a virtual puppet government.

Some would make the argument that it's ok to be anti-democracy when it's to prevent the election of a government who wants to use violence. But we sure wouldn't like that rule used with us, would we.

 

[Lemon law]

From what I can find online, it looks like per-capita income has risen quite substantially in both Gaza and the West bank in recent years. Its still in the sewer in both places but
I imagine things will get worse in Gaza now. The joker in the deck is always the people. Israel is already making military incursions into Gaza. And from what I have also read, almost 200 Hamas members have been arrested in the West Bank. And in Israel, they seem deeply divided on how to deal with recent developments.

So situation very volatile.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
To Fern,

-snip-

Its certainly not what I am seeing although you have the high points sufficiently correct-----where you are terribly wrong is that you have drinking the GWB koolaid to the point of of complete hallucinations Nah, I'm not drinking any koolaid nor having hallucinations. I'm just trying to find out what you're getting at, I'm curious. You spoke above about a "contrived fued between fatah & Hamas, and GWB arming terrorists". Nor am I making any analogy - the "evil Machiavellian plot" was my attempt to characterize what I thought you were trying to to say. BTW: Fatah is not listed as a terrorist organization, why do you say GBW gave $86 Million to terrorists? . And we can start with your analogy about this being a "evil Machiavellian plot on the part of GWB." While I may buy evil, but Machiavellian somehow has the implication of a clever manipulation Even as I re-read your OP i get the impression that YOU"RE saying there is some manipulation going on. I was just asking what you were thinking. Forget about the term "Machiavellian", perhaps just a poor choice of words on my behalf, but I thought you were implying such in your OP [/b] that will hog tie the opposition and render it ineffective so Machavelli can better accomplish his ends. Not only is this a busted play,
it moves progress back, and has all the hall marks of typical GWB. To give a surgical analogy, GWB knows how to cut the belly open, but is totally clueless on how to operate once the belly is cut open, and refuses to even sew the victim back up. And the first part of the Hippocratic oath is first do no harm. So its more keystone cops at best.

Then move on to point 1. Hamas bad guy democratically elected. When really Hamas has a dual identity---or a split personality if you will Yeah, all those groups share this trait, including Fatah with the Al Aqsa Brigade etc. But again Hamas is clasified as terrorist org, Fatah is not (The Brigade is IIRC) ---good Hamas that is a basic social worker trying to make the existing system work---and a bad Hamas that has an evil twin brother that will appear if his brother is thwarted in his good works. And opposed to what has become of the Fatah party which is corrupt fat cat that enriches itself while claiming to represent the Palestinian people. And its the fact that Fatah has done nothing to help the Palestinian cause that in turn has caused their election loss to Hamas. And in the wider context---it depends on what side you are on---for Israel itself, its quite understandable that they now want to deal with a Fatah that does nothing to advance the Palestinian cause. And if you are Arab or Palestinian you see a gross injustice as Israel has stolen Palestinian land and then tossed the victims into refugee camps. And if you are unbiased you see two things. (a) Both sides are somewhat correct and in correct---both have somewhat valid grievances with the other. And therefore in fairness some sort of compromise is in order. And some sharing and honest negotiation is needed---which is now frustrated by the military hegemony of Israel which allows Israel to ignore any need to negotiate in good faith. Or offer anything that might induce the Palestinians to settle. (b) That as a result---the mid-east is one sick puppy. If one or the other side were to die---the solution would be simple---but neither is side is going to go away and that leads to one sick puppy that desperately needs help if you can even talk about the mid-east as a single organism. And going back to that Hippocratic oath---first do no harm---thats exactly what this latest brainfart did is do harm because it now almost certainly has to have the net effect of radicalizing Hamas and destroying Fatah---and before you had the good Hamas and Abbas in a fragile coalition where at least terrorist attacks against Israel coming from the Palestinians were minor. So in stirring the pot---thats not likely in future.

I will concede that there is a tiny chance that these Dr. GWB Machiavellian manipulations may lead to something positive So, you are seeing some attempted manipulations? Again, I'm not debating with you, I'm curious what you are thinking is going on besides the usuall screw up ------but the long odds are that this will make the situation much worse.---and like Iraq be a white elephant where we can't solve and can't let go of as events spin out of control . You may be drunk slappy happy on GWB koolaid, as for me, I am peeing my pants because the fire danger in the mid-east just went way up. Only events will see if you will be the one only waking up with only a mere hangover.

On the whole a rather unsatisfying response. I thought it relatively clear that I'm just asking what you're suspecting that GWB etc is up to.

Instead of explaining what you're thinking (would be even better today as you've had the night to think over the potential implications) you post back about drinking koolaid, halucinations, and accusations that I think GWB is doing something clever? Here I am trying to politely ask you are thinking and I get this stuff instead of an honest answer?

I don't what the h3ll he's doing, nor have I said so. But you seem to - you speak of the Fatah v Hamas war being "contrived" etc. What does that mean? What implications do you see? etc.

Fern

 

[Lemon law]

To Fern,

I may have mis-interpreted your question but I think its rather clear what GWB&co. are up to. They want mid-east strife to go away and felt if they can weaken Hamas its a good thing. And they figured if they armed Fatah---Fatah would violently expel Hamas and exactly the opposite thing happened in Gaza. Which is exactly what the link said about the 86 million in financing. But on the one out of two thing ain't bad, Fatah rushed to the West Bank and now have expelled Hamas. And now the Palestinian people are effectively divided in two and now GWB hopes that Fatah will cease all violence against Israel and get GWB out of his ill fated promise to support free elections.

But in a more long term view, one has to wonder how wise this decision will prove to be? First, one has to realize that Arifat, the PLO, and Fatah---all somewhat different names for the same thing USED TO BE WHAT HAMAS IS NOW. And when Arifat refused to ink the the land for peace deal in the 1990's, he had somewhat run out of options to force any better settlement once he was mousetrapped into reconizing Israel. But got tossed the responsibility of disbursing funding in an entity called the Palestinian authority. And in the process both Arifat and Fatah grew incredibly corrupt. And they really enraged Israel by running some low level terrorism on the side. And because they did nothing effective for the Palestinian people--a new organization called Hamas which also did laudable social work won the election of 2006. And like the Fatah of yesteryear, they refuse to recognize the existence of Israel. So this little bit of GWB&co. manipulation has effectively set the clock back at least 15 years.

The simple point is that Fatah ended up doing nothing for the Palestinians---and got fired---and Hamas is getting their chance---and now in comes GWB and he rehires Fatah.
And if GWB now fails to do anything substantive to get the Palestinians a deal they can agree on---which is basically going to have to be better than what Arifat got offered in the 90's, there is no way Fatah can be anything but temporary--the Palestinian people done fired them once and will again if Fatah can't deliver something for Palestinian aspirations. And if Hamas does not do something to resume leadership, there are no shortage of other groups that will vie for that leadership. But as was pointed out before---Israel wants to act as if the Palestinians had a single voice and was a single entity---which justifies collective punishment---and now thats harder when they are split in two and totally false anyway. And now there are also going to be more terrorists groups operating---many not affiliated with either Fatah or Hamas---and all having slightly differing agendas and goals as they all vie to be the next leaders of the Palestinian people.

So Fern---what GWB thinks he will get and what he ends up getting are likely to be two totally different things.---but he is going through the motions of making what amounts to a busted play fly. But GWB&co. have done nothing to really change what is driving the conflict or solve anything---all they have done is drive anger up and make a very complex region even more complex. Until Israel is willing to negotiate in good faith---this solves nothing---and Israel---100% guaranteed is not ready to do a damn thing to defuse the conflicts driving resentments dating back to 1948.

You may want to be optimistic---and there is a small chance something good will come of it--and I hope you are right---but my gut tell me things are going to get far more ugly
in the coming months and years.

Flat out GWB&co do not understand other people and the hard work it takes to solve diplomatic problems. And this is just another tempting shortcut that wiser people would have been far more skeptical of.

I hope this better answers your question---if not please define it better.---but I don't live in his head and its my best guess on what various people in the GWB administration were thinking.----or in a final analysis stinking thinking because by definition it can solve nothing.---it may offer everything to Israel but offers nothing to the other sides. And if the other sides can't get what they feel is fair---feel strongly enough about it--you get the tactic of terrorism nearly every time.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
To Fern,

You may want to be optimistic---and there is a small chance something good will come of it--and I hope you are right---but my gut tell me things are going to get far more ugly
in the coming months and years.

Nah, I'm not optimistic. I see no reason to be.

Unless there are some true/real/valid differences in the populations of Gaza and the West Bank (or Fatah reforms) I'd just simply expect Fatah to get thrown out of the West Bank next election cycle (if they hold 'em).


I hope this better answers your question---if not please define it better.---

Yeah I guess it does. I was just under the impression you were seeing some manipulations or games being played. Like GB was "ahead of the game" or had some pre-existing plan now playing itself out (e.g., "contrived war" remark). All I see is "re-active" by GWB, no "pro-active" really. I.e., they are now trying to respond to their unexpected failure with the policy of propping up & arming Fatah.

But maybe some "games" will be played? I've never contemplated Palestine being split up. Frankly, I don't see how that's helpful to any lasting settlement/agreement (not I think one is likley anyway. I've been watching this crap for about 30 yrs. Mostly seems like SOS to me.).

But the "Divide & Conquor" option seems to present itself to the Isaelis in at least fashion now.
.

Thanks,

Fern

 

[Lemon law]

To Fern,

I see we are somewhat coming to a consensus---but the following remark of yours now confuses me----But the "Divide & Conquor" option seems to present itself to the Isaelis in at least fashion now.

And what you mean now has me curious. And Israel is that huge other joker in the deck.----they may be pursuing a deliberate divide and conquer strategy---but I see the new danger being red herring agent provocateurs who will attack Israel from someone else's turf for the express purpose of getting Israel to retaliate against that someone else. Israeli intelligence services are very good---but even they do have their limits.---so I wonder if divide and conquer is long term wisdom---especially if Fatah fails to gain or retain international respectability---then Israel will be left with no negotiating entity to talk to.

In the mid-east---GWB&co. is not the only ones stirring the boiling cauldron. And stranger still, AL-Quida has allied with Fatah.---and against Hamas. Which is just what we need--Ossama and friends stirring the pot too.

 

[kylebisme]

Fatah has nothing to do with Al-Qaeda, you must be confusing them with Fatah al-Islam.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Fatah has nothing to do with Al-Qaeda, you must be confusing them with Fatah al-Islam.

I beg to disagree from the links I have seem. How big of a factor they now are may be a debatable question. But Hamas is linked to Shia Iran and Al-Quida is mostly a Sunni movement. And the top leaders of Al-Quida come from Saudi Arabia and Egypt---nations now somewhat friendly to Israel. The goal of Ossama and Al Zawahari somewhat has to be to peel both Egypt and Saudi Arabia away from their present stance.

From their viewpoint it has to make strategic sense. Even if they invest almost nothing.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
To Fern,

I see we are somewhat coming to a consensus---but the following remark of yours now confuses me----But the "Divide & Conquor" option seems to present itself to the Isaelis in at least fashion now.

And what you mean now has me curious.

If I understand correctly, the two parts are geopgraphicaly seperate, with holding control of the transportation corrider between the two.

While they may have always had this advantage/ability, they can certainly now restrict the ability of target to move back and forth. Generally tactical-type advantage stuff they may have gained.

Otherwise, I was mostly thinking of accelerating negotiaions with their preferred partner Fatah. Giving some nice "carrots" to them. Demonstrating that Fatah, not Hamas, can lead to tangible/substantial benefits for the Palestinian people under their rule.

Make the Hamas side suffer, etc

Perhaps Israel now has another benefit to offer Fatah - helping them in their struggle with Fatah.

Nothing on my part is very well thought out, mostly thinking out loud here. But seems to me generally when your "opponet" is split in half they are weaker.

Thinking of Olmert & GWB meeting earlier this week - Am sort of expecting Israel & others to recognize that Palestine has two seperate parts, and start recognizing & dealing with the Fatah side. Since Hamas is now excluded from the West Bank, restoring int'l aid and the revenues Israel owes them.


.---so I wonder if divide and conquer is long term wisdom---especially if Fatah fails to gain or retain international respectability---then Israel will be left with no negotiating entity to talk to.

In the mid-east---GWB&co. is not the only ones stirring the boiling cauldron. And stranger still, AL-Quida has allied with Fatah.---and against Hamas. Which is just what we need--Ossama and friends stirring the pot too.

Can't comment much before I reveiw the border situation. I can't recall if it's Egypt or Jordan, or both, or what. Interesting, didn't know that AQ had allied with Fatah.

I guess I'm not very current with the situation in Palestine. I'll need to spend time googling etc before.

Here I am, starting out trying get you to tell me what YOU think, and you've got me turned around talking outta my butt about developments in Palestine

 

[Lemon law]

To Fern,

Who notes---Here I am, starting out trying get you to tell me what YOU think, and you've got me turned around talking outta my butt about developments in Palestine

For what its worth we are all talking out of of butts and looking through cloudy crystal balls that need to be RMA'd.

But thanks for having an open mind.

 

[BMW540I6speed]

Craig234 said:

Giving aid or not is the decision of the nation giving; but it's anti-democracy to go to the point of economic blackmail to force the installation of a virtual puppet government.

Some would make the argument that it's ok to be anti-democracy when it's to prevent the election of a government who wants to use violence. But we sure wouldn't like that rule used with us, would we.

Avoiding a rhetorical question you have framed at the end of your post, of course the hypocracy of the the "Bush doctrine" of spreading democracy, particularly by military force, and "not" negotiating or supporting so called "terrorist" organizations is inane. The Brits learned this with Northern Ireland.

Describing the clan based culture in Gaza which has contributed to the current crisis. One of the first moves of Hamas was to release everyone from jail (criminals) as part of a deal with the clans for their support - it is the Dagamush clan which is holding Alan Johnson the BBC reporter.

Although the tax revenue has been held back by Israel, this has been more than made up by over $200million from Iran and another $150 million in other aid, both support from other Arab nations and humanitarian aid that was meant to feed Gazans, but much of which was misappropriated. By all accounts Gaza is now awash with Chinese and Iranian arms.

It is not enough to detail the complex society and history of an intensely tribal people who have been under some form of foreign government for their entire existance - Ottoman, British, Egyptian, Jordanian and Israel, just to list the last 300 years or so.

As a people they have never really had the opportunity to develop an internal unified structure or nationality, they have always been focused on the "other" who ruled them so take that away and it is not surprising that there is upheaval and manouvering among them for supremacy.

It's easy to forget that Israel started Hamas 20+ years ago in a divide and conquer bid to create strife and division in Gaza and the West Bank for their main powerful enemy at the time Fatah.

A bigger problem for Israel & America is tone-deafness, both of Israel, the Likudniks and AIPAC and its lobby in DC. So shrill are they, so inclined to fling charges of anti-Semitism, that they cannot engage with people in any normal way, which means that increasingly they do not hear what people think.

US public mood is turning very dangerously against Israel; the recent calls by its shills (e.g., Lieberman, Perle, Krauthammer) for an attack on Iran, indeed perhaps a nuclear one, and heavy-handed lobbying by Israel, coming right now, with the situation in Iraq as bad as it is, and with a sense (fair or unfair) that the "Israel Lobby" that now wants Iran attacked, had a major role in getting the US into the Iraqi mess, may drive a backlash.

In other words, the best thing AIPAC could do now for Israel's interests is to simply shut up, or start asking for a major humanitarian aid programs for Gaza (food, medicine) and real economic aid for the West Bank, so some sort of unification can begin some sort of dialogue & healing, but don't hold your breath.

Americans that aren't ardently zionist or rapture fanatics should ask themselves "what's in it for me?".

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Fatah has nothing to do with Al-Qaeda, you must be confusing them with Fatah al-Islam.

I beg to disagree from the links I have seem. How big of a factor they now are may be a debatable question. But Hamas is linked to Shia Iran and Al-Quida is mostly a Sunni movement. And the top leaders of Al-Quida come from Saudi Arabia and Egypt---nations now somewhat friendly to Israel. The goal of Ossama and Al Zawahari somewhat has to be to peel both Egypt and Saudi Arabia away from their present stance.

From their viewpoint it has to make strategic sense. Even if they invest almost nothing.

Fatah has nothing to do with Al-Qaeda, you dreaming up a connection does nothing to change that fact.

 

[GrGr]

It is interesting to see how Abbas now is raising his profile with the backing of his new friends Israel and the US. He will use them, and they will use him, to crush Hamas. It is like the US using indian tribes to fight each other. Divide and conquer.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: GrGr
It is interesting to see how Abbas now is raising his profile with the backing of his new friends Israel and the US. He will use them, and they will use him, to crush Hamas. It is like the US using indian tribes to fight each other. Divide and conquer.

crushing Hamas is a good thing... but the methods may have unintended consequences. that said, it's a gamble that I'm willing to see the US take because nothing else has worked for 40+ years... so why not try this out and see what happens?!

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: GrGr
It is interesting to see how Abbas now is raising his profile with the backing of his new friends Israel and the US. He will use them, and they will use him, to crush Hamas. It is like the US using indian tribes to fight each other. Divide and conquer.

crushing Hamas is a good thing... but the methods may have unintended consequences. that said, it's a gamble that I'm willing to see the US take because nothing else has worked for 40+ years... so why not try this out and see what happens?!

It is entirely predictable what will happen.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: GrGr
It is interesting to see how Abbas now is raising his profile with the backing of his new friends Israel and the US. He will use them, and they will use him, to crush Hamas. It is like the US using indian tribes to fight each other. Divide and conquer.

crushing Hamas is a good thing... but the methods may have unintended consequences. that said, it's a gamble that I'm willing to see the US take because nothing else has worked for 40+ years... so why not try this out and see what happens?!

Palehorse, do you know what Israel's position on, their role in, the creation of Hamas was?

 

[Jhhnn]

You're right, to a point, Palehorse. Nothing has worked for 40 years.

Why not? The Israelis have been dealing with Fatah the whole time, always making sure there was a fly in the soup, setting terms and conditions no palestinian leadership could endorse while remaining in power... other than thru totalitarian means, which is probably what we'll see from Fatah as time goes on. $86M in small arms and ammunition from the US will go a very long way to achieve that... not to mention Israeli contributions...

 

[GrGr]

Abbas, Olmert to meet in Egypt for talks on Gaza

RAMALLAH, West Bank (Reuters) - The Palestinian and Israeli leaders agreed on Thursday to meet for the first time in two months after an Islamist takeover of the Gaza Strip prompted both to sharpen their confrontation with Hamas in the enclave.

...

So it begins. The Quisling will sell out his people for money and power. In fact, he already did.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
The Israelis have been dealing with Fatah the whole time, always making sure there was a fly in the soup

There were flies in the soup prior to 1967, but unfortunately you never heard the phares "we don't negotiate with terrorists".

Originally posted by: Craig234
Palehorse, do you know what Israel's position on, their role in, the creation of Hamas was?

Yeah, they are 100% responsible for the creation of Hamas, just like Osama Bin-Laden is a DARPA remote-controlled android.

 

[Jhhnn]

From dna-

There were flies in the soup prior to 1967, but unfortunately you never heard the phares "we don't negotiate with terrorists".

Maybe that's because Ben Gurion and the rest of the early Israeli leadership had been terrorists themselves... and depending on your perspective, their leadership still is...

Just because the attack comes with modern military equipment doesn't make it non-terrorist, at all...

Aiding, abetting, supplying, arming and training terrorists like the Lebanese Phalange and Fatah is no better than simply doing the deeds yourself, other than providing a thin veneer of deniablity...

When the other side uses such methods, then it's cowardly terrorists. When we or our friends do the same, it's brave freedom fighters...

 

[Lemon law]

The terrorists are just the symptom of the disease. A very big part of the sickness is Israel hiding behind its military hegemony to prevent confronting their own sins. As they pretend that they are the only party with legitimate grievances---when in fact both sides have their share of sins. And sins being constantly added to until the rage build way past the snapping point for both sides.

And regardless if you talk to terrorists or not---they are still there when the root causes are still there and unaddressed.---but one of the longest lasting insurgencies was somewhat solved by talking to terrorists. See the recent Irish way.---which didn't happen by not talking to terrorists.

The jury is still out on this present US brainfart that has managed to split Palestinian self rule. And could well destroy the more moderate Fatah and leave Israel confronting Hamas and even more radical elements. And when you drive the moderates of both sides out of the political debate---you have created a perfect breeding grounds for terrorism.
And unless you are a terrorist yourself, that is never a good thing.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
When the other side uses such methods, then it's cowardly terrorists. When we or our friends do the same, it's brave freedom fighters...

As expected: no comment on PLO & Friends terrorism -- which surely were not a "fly in the soup" in any imaginable way -- and 100% hot air.

Also, we have to make sure we ignore the way Arabs have abused the Palestinian "cause" for decades, otherwise all this Israel bashing just doesn't quite seem to work out.

 

[Drift3r]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: dna
I suggest some of you take a look at the fine videos @ PMW before shedding more tears for the democratically elected hamas. So Jhhnn, all they want is voting rights, eh? Come now, accuse me of "smearing" Hamas.

Perhaps people should remember that the National Socialist party in Germany was also democratically elected, but they also promised to do away with democracy once they were in power, e.g.:
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In a pamphlet published in 1935, Goebbels said: "When democracy granted democratic methods for us in the times of opposition, this was bound to happen in a democratic system. However, we National Socialists never asserted that we represented a democratic point of view, but we have declared openly that we used democratic methods only in order to gain the power and that, after assuming the power, we would deny to our adversaries without any consideration the means which were granted to us in the times of opposition."</end quote></div>

Surely, with the crackdown on "vice", pop music, and internet cafes bombings that followed Hamas election, you didn't really think that they are about democracy, did you?

Now, who's gonna be the first clown to invoke Godwin's law?</end quote></div>

Do you know the reason why the power grab of the NAZI's succeeded in the 1930's ?

Do you realize how they played to the national sentiment of the time in Germany? When the whole of Germany was collectively punished for WW1 they seized on this public sentiment of anger and hopelessness maximized it for their own benefits. Just as Hamas has seized on Israel's continued collective punishment of the Palestinians and continual humiliation of the PLO/Fatah. Had it not been for the hash penalties enacted by Treaty of Versailles ( which collectively punished all Germans ) Hitler and friends would of never of had a platform to run on. Same could of been said for Hamas and the Palestinians.

When Israel has time after time humiliated and knocked down so called moderates like Fatah it leaves people with no other recourse then to ditch any sort of moderate government and look toward extremists. Either way they have learned that no matter the choice they make Israel will alway come back and collectively punish them all for the crimes of the extremist minority or individual. So in turn they are left with no alternative but to embrace the extreme.

So now will see how one extreme will always breed another extreme that acts in the direct and opposite nature to in order counter act the former. Collective punishment does not force other people to your will it just forces them to embrace the polar opposite of extremes.