Hold the presses on Hamas v. Fatah

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Found this one on yahoo news.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenat...ZDW5dihSuDMfbMQST9wxIF

According to the link, this one is the brain fart of a serial bumbler dating back to Iran Contra. And maybe the Fatah v Hamas feud was contrived and not as simple as earlier assumed. And Condi and GWB climbed aboard as another 86 million of taxpayer money goes to arming terrorists is the other allegation.

And now an alternate plan B is evolved to take advantage of plan A backfiring. I think I will sleep on the implications and see how world reaction plays out. But it can't bolster the credibility of either Fatah or GWB. But as of yet, there may not be much enough journalistic
cred to constitute proof. And no resulting world rage resulted when Seymour Hersch reported the Israeli Lebanese incursion was US contrived.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
1
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I have posted about Elliot Abrams and the White House support of Fatah before. What is new to me is that this article points to Bush and Rice directly.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Elliot Abrams is one evil bastard. I remember in the eighties, that when all the info was about the death squads, he was the guy who would say how wonderful the right-wingers were, the liar who covered for and planned with the right-wing dictatorships.

His name is always popping up in some new scheme for evil.

What part of respecting democracy does the Bush administration not understand? Hamas was elected.

They don't have to ally with them, but organizing violence against the elected government because of our own strategic desires makes our country anti-democracy terrorists.

How can we say it's wrong for anyone else to use violence against our elected government because it fits their strategic desires?
 

imported_Shivetya

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2005
2,978
1
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
Found this one on yahoo news.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenat...ZDW5dihSuDMfbMQST9wxIF

According to the link, this one is the brain fart of a serial bumbler dating back to Iran Contra. And maybe the Fatah v Hamas feud was contrived and not as simple as earlier assumed. And Condi and GWB climbed aboard as another 86 million of taxpayer money goes to arming terrorists is the other allegation.

And now an alternate plan B is evolved to take advantage of plan A backfiring. I think I will sleep on the implications and see how world reaction plays out. But it can't bolster the credibility of either Fatah or GWB. But as of yet, there may not be much enough journalistic
cred to constitute proof. And no resulting world rage resulted when Seymour Hersch reported the Israeli Lebanese incursion was US contrived.

thats an editorial, and not from a reputable source either.

Hell its just as bad as free republic.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Nice smear, Shivetya, equating the "Nation" and and "Atlantic Monthly" with Free Republic.

Immediate recognition and restoration of aid to the West Bank factions who've just overthrown their democratically elected govt rather vividly illustrates the fact that it's all been arranged in advance, another coup sponsored by the US.

Having failed to provide Fatah with a democratically elected veneer of legitimacy, the US and Israel now settle for simple force of arms in the West Bank- Gaza obviously to follow soon if possible.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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The point being---this nation article will be tested as a hypothesis---and if its true---its just another in a very long list of GWB&co. hypocrisies.

The much worse problem is that if true--this GWB&co. brainfart may end up causing a huge crisis who ramifications could be huge.

I imagine we shall find out exactly how true it is in the coming days and weeks.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,950
10,294
136
So Bush goes from dumbfounded monkey in pants to evil mastermind in control of both sides of a foreign people depending on which thread we?re reading. Consistency anyone?

Frankly, I AM disgusted over us giving a penny to either of those factions. They should both starve to death and so long as we contribute to their bloodshed our government is derelict in its duties and the people holding office should be brought to answer for such a crime.
 

imported_Shivetya

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2005
2,978
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
The point being---this nation article will be tested as a hypothesis---and if its true---its just another in a very long list of GWB&co. hypocrisies.

The much worse problem is that if true--this GWB&co. brainfart may end up causing a huge crisis who ramifications could be huge.

I imagine we shall find out exactly how true it is in the coming days and weeks.

hahahahahaha

or just another tin foil hat crowd conspiracy that the dummycrats throw at the wall hoping beyond hope somethings actually sticks?


damn, if these twits are not being as silly as the Republicans were with Clinton... it took them, what, 4 years to get something to stick? How many will it take this time?


The way you guys make Bush out you'd swear he wears a cape and spandex. I thought he was supposed to be a dummy.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
Originally posted by: Craig234

...

What part of respecting democracy does the Bush administration not understand? Hamas was elected.

They don't have to ally with them, but organizing violence against the elected government because of our own strategic desires makes our country anti-democracy terrorists.

How can we say it's wrong for anyone else to use violence against our elected government because it fits their strategic desires?

This is one of the few times where I think I'll agree with you here - if this link is indeed accurate.

Hamas was elected by their people.

The US should just tell the Palestinian people, "Congrats on your election. The US will not aid terrorist organizations, hence, we will be providing no aid to you until the Leadership you elected renounces violence."

We don't have to tell them that Hamas must negotiate or even recognize Israel. If they don't want to do that, then really that's their choice. Just don't expect US aid, and don't expect the Israeli's to help any either.

Their people made the decision to go with Hamas, let them live with that decision. When starving and living in sh1tty conditions gets to be too much, then they'll either attack Israel and get wiped out, or, they'll start behaving like a modern people and try and sort out their problems peacably before taking it to arms.

Chuck
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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The giant Chucky2 distortion is here---The US should just tell the Palestinian people, "Congrats on your election. The US will not aid terrorist organizations, hence, we will be providing no aid to you until the Leadership you elected renounces violence."

The problem is that this is legitimate tax revenues collected by and held in trust by Israel for the Palestinian authority---which was confiscated in a joint US Israeli snit the day Hamas won the election. And now these monies that belong to the Palestinian Authority for the administration of aid to ALL the Palestinian people is finally being turned over to Fatah and can only go to the West Bank. This isn't aid being given, these are confiscated revenues being finally released. GWB &Israel may think they are being cute but its going to provoke a heck of a lot of rage in the Arab Mid-east.------as Abbas gets a hero's reward for deserting 50% of his constituency.---and you can bet a lot will stick to the hands of the even more corrupt and craven Fatah party which now rules totally by decree and without a shred of legitimacy.

Quite a few editorials I have seen describe this whole fiasco as a GWB&co. disaster.---and as GWB tries to pretend this went by original plan---I wonder what will happen if Abbas falls in the West Bank which is now very likely. And at the same time I also will guess that Hamas will increase its support and the climate in the Mid-east will turn even more radical than it already is.

At the same time I have to admit there is a finite chance that it could lead to a possible mid-east peace plan---like Iraq the die is already cast---and now we have to hope that turkey will fly.---and at the same time be prepared to pay the price if it fails.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Originally posted by: Shivetya
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Found this one on yahoo news.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenat...ZDW5dihSuDMfbMQST9wxIF

According to the link, this one is the brain fart of a serial bumbler dating back to Iran Contra. And maybe the Fatah v Hamas feud was contrived and not as simple as earlier assumed. And Condi and GWB climbed aboard as another 86 million of taxpayer money goes to arming terrorists is the other allegation.

And now an alternate plan B is evolved to take advantage of plan A backfiring. I think I will sleep on the implications and see how world reaction plays out. But it can't bolster the credibility of either Fatah or GWB. But as of yet, there may not be much enough journalistic
cred to constitute proof. And no resulting world rage resulted when Seymour Hersch reported the Israeli Lebanese incursion was US contrived.

thats an editorial, and not from a reputable source either.

Hell its just as bad as free republic.

Does this have anything to do with the Fatah fighters/terrorists who are being trained and armed in Egypt by American "advisors" and trucked by Israel to the fighting? I got that off a live NPR interview.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
You misunderstood my Lemon Law, I said nothing about taxes the Iraeli's collect. That's Israel's problem to sort out and not ours.

I'm just talking about US aid. That's our money, it's ours to give as we see fit.

If Israel agreed to give some of their tax revenue to the Palestinians, then it's their decision on whether they want to continue to give it to a people now led by a government that wants to destroy Israel and likes killing Israeli civs because that's convenient.

Again, that's Israel's problem, not ours.

That's all I was saying.

Chuck
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
To Whampon who asks---Does this have anything to do with the Fatah fighters/terrorists who are being trained and armed in Egypt by American "advisors" and trucked by Israel to the fighting? I got that off a live NPR interview.

At this point I don't claim to know---but does the truth matter any more when emotions run so high? And no one in the mi-east believes a thing GWB says. Even Ohlmert is polling like 3% in Israel. If nothing else, many are asking can the USA play the role of peacemaker in the mid-east any longer? ---Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, GHB, and Clinton all did their share. With Carter even getting a Nobel prize for his efforts.

But can a future US President be anything but hobbled now?
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Originally posted by: chucky2
Originally posted by: Craig234

...

What part of respecting democracy does the Bush administration not understand? Hamas was elected.

They don't have to ally with them, but organizing violence against the elected government because of our own strategic desires makes our country anti-democracy terrorists.

How can we say it's wrong for anyone else to use violence against our elected government because it fits their strategic desires?

This is one of the few times where I think I'll agree with you here - if this link is indeed accurate.

Hamas was elected by their people.

The US should just tell the Palestinian people, "Congrats on your election. The US will not aid terrorist organizations, hence, we will be providing no aid to you until the Leadership you elected renounces violence."

We don't have to tell them that Hamas must negotiate or even recognize Israel. If they don't want to do that, then really that's their choice. Just don't expect US aid, and don't expect the Israeli's to help any either.

Their people made the decision to go with Hamas, let them live with that decision. When starving and living in sh1tty conditions gets to be too much, then they'll either attack Israel and get wiped out, or, they'll start behaving like a modern people and try and sort out their problems peacably before taking it to arms.

Chuck

Why not treat them the same as the other Arab nations surrounding Israel and give them many $Billions in bribes/loans not to attack Israel.
There seems to be no problem with other countries elections as long as they elect our favorite candidates, is there? Heil! Tha grandson of a Nazi sympathizer, G W BUSH! Founder of the Fourth Riech! Leader of the (used to be called free) world.:p
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Found this one on yahoo news.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenat...ZDW5dihSuDMfbMQST9wxIF

According to the link, this one is the brain fart of a serial bumbler dating back to Iran Contra. And maybe the Fatah v Hamas feud was contrived and not as simple as earlier assumed. And Condi and GWB climbed aboard as another 86 million of taxpayer money goes to arming terrorists is the other allegation.

And now an alternate plan B is evolved to take advantage of plan A backfiring. I think I will sleep on the implications and see how world reaction plays out. But it can't bolster the credibility of either Fatah or GWB. But as of yet, there may not be much enough journalistic
cred to constitute proof. And no resulting world rage resulted when Seymour Hersch reported the Israeli Lebanese incursion was US contrived.

Lemon Law,

I'm not quite following you. You seem to be implying some evil Machavellian GWB plot?

Not being terribly familar with the situation, I'll outline what little I know (or think I know):

1. Hamas, bad guys democratically elected. Classified as terrorist organization by the US and others. Upon thier election, most international aid stopped (because they are classified as terrorist org). Of course, we have the apparent contradiction of not supporting a democratically elected government. OTOH, if we supported them, we'd have the apparent contradiction of supporting a listed terrorist organization - No way to win.

2. Fatah, recently the good guys (hasn't Abbas, or whatever his name is, agreed to recognize & negotiate with Isreal?), NOT classifed by US as a terrorist org.

3. War between the two began in '06

4. Hamas just "captured" Gaza (kickin Fatah's butt), Fatah retains "control" over the West Bank ATM.

So, what's news to me (assuming the above are generally correct) is that we've been arming/training Fatah in their fight against Hamas.

Now, from an earlier news report today, GWB and Olmhert are meeting on the Gaza development, presumable to recognize the idea of a split Palestine and what to do about it.

Now, aside from the USA looking inept at training/arming Fatah I don't see anything unusual here. What are you seeing?


TIA,

Fern
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Why not treat them the same as the other Arab nations surrounding Israel and give them many $Billions in bribes/loans not to attack Israel.
There seems to be no problem with other countries elections as long as they elect our favorite candidates, is there?
Heil! Tha grandson of a Nazi sympathizer, G W BUSH! Founder of the Fourth Riech! Leader of the (used to be called free) world.:p

What do you think Israel, the rest of the world, and US are doing when they are giving aid to the Palestinian people? People that live in good conditions tend not to try and rock the boat too much because they're relatively happy...which is why in the other thread going right now we're going to keep marching on with a two party system here in the US even though everyone knows neither side could truly give two sh1ts about the people, they just want the votes so they can remain in power to justify their existence and placate the special interest groups that got them there.

Make people unhappy, and you see them getting off their @sses and doing something; and that something may not be what you like or want, but, it is something.

The gamble they were taking up until today or yesterday or whatever is that cutting off the money and backing Fatah would make the Palestinians somehow realize that maybe the Hamas choice really wasn't such a good one. It's changing the perception and hopes of a people by modifying their reality...it's just a gamble, no real way to know either way how it's going to turn out.

I'd reply to the rest of your post, but really, you sort of went somewhat insane there, so I'll just leave it be...

Chuck
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
To Fern,

Who asks.

Lemon Law,

I'm not quite following you. You seem to be implying some evil Machavellian GWB plot?

Not being terribly familar with the situation, I'll outline what little I know (or think I know):

1. Hamas, bad guys democratically elected. Classified as terrorist organization by the US and others. Upon thier election, most international aid stopped (because they are classified as terrorist org). Of course, we have the apparent contradiction of not supporting a democratically elected government. OTOH, if we supported them, we'd have the apparent contradiction of supporting a listed terrorist organization - No way to win.

2. Fatah, recently the good guys (hasn't Abbas, or whatever his name is, agreed to recognize & negotiate with Isreal?), NOT classifed by US as a terrorist org.

3. War between the two began in '06

4. Hamas just "captured" Gaza (kickin Fatah's butt), Fatah retains "control" over the West Bank ATM.

So, what's news to me (assuming the above are generally correct) is that we've been arming/training Fatah in their fight against Hamas.

Now, from an earlier news report today, GWB and Olmhert are meeting on the Gaza development, presumable to recognize the idea of a split Palestine and what to do about it.

Now, aside from the USA looking inept at training/arming Fatah I don't see anything unusual here. What are you seeing?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its certainly not what I am seeing although you have the high points sufficiently correct-----where you are terribly wrong is that you have drinking the GWB koolaid to the point of of complete hallucinations. And we can start with your analogy about this being a "evil Machiavellian plot on the part of GWB." While I may buy evil, but Machiavellian somehow has the implication of a clever manipulation that will hog tie the opposition and render it ineffective so Machavelli can better accomplish his ends. Not only is this a busted play,
it moves progress back, and has all the hall marks of typical GWB. To give a surgical analogy, GWB knows how to cut the belly open, but is totally clueless on how to operate once the belly is cut open, and refuses to even sew the victim back up. And the first part of the Hippocratic oath is first do no harm. So its more keystone cops at best.

Then move on to point 1. Hamas bad guy democratically elected. When really Hamas has a dual identity---or a split personality if you will---good Hamas that is a basic social worker trying to make the existing system work---and a bad Hamas that has an evil twin brother that will appear if his brother is thwarted in his good works. And opposed to what has become of the Fatah party which is corrupt fat cat that enriches itself while claiming to represent the Palestinian people. And its the fact that Fatah has done nothing to help the Palestinian cause that in turn has caused their election loss to Hamas. And in the wider context---it depends on what side you are on---for Israel itself, its quite understandable that they now want to deal with a Fatah that does nothing to advance the Palestinian cause. And if you are Arab or Palestinian you see a gross injustice as Israel has stolen Palestinian land and then tossed the victims into refugee camps. And if you are unbiased you see two things. (a) Both sides are somewhat correct and in correct---both have somewhat valid grievances with the other. And therefore in fairness some sort of compromise is in order. And some sharing and honest negotiation is needed---which is now frustrated by the military hegemony of Israel which allows Israel to ignore any need to negotiate in good faith. Or offer anything that might induce the Palestinians to settle. (b) That as a result---the mid-east is one sick puppy. If one or the other side were to die---the solution would be simple---but neither is side is going to go away and that leads to one sick puppy that desperately needs help if you can even talk about the mid-east as a single organism. And going back to that Hippocratic oath---first do no harm---thats exactly what this latest brainfart did is do harm because it now almost certainly has to have the net effect of radicalizing Hamas and destroying Fatah---and before you had the good Hamas and Abbas in a fragile coalition where at least terrorist attacks against Israel coming from the Palestinians were minor. So in stirring the pot---thats not likely in future.

I will concede that there is a tiny chance that these Dr. GWB Machiavellian manipulations may lead to something positive------but the long odds are that this will make the situation much worse.---and like Iraq be a white elephant where we can't solve and can't let go of as events spin out of control . You may be drunk slappy happy on GWB koolaid, as for me, I am peeing my pants because the fire danger in the mid-east just went way up. Only events will see if you will be the one only waking up with only a mere hangover.
 

jckm

Junior Member
Jun 13, 2007
6
0
0
good hamas bad hamas, my ass.
Good hamas are basic social workers (indoctrinator). they use terrorist money from iran to build hamas schools that indoctrinate little children to become a human bomb. They use most of their terrorist money to purchase and make weapons. they use some of their resources to buy the people off to sway to their side, like the Hezbollah
model.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Originally posted by: jckm
good hamas bad hamas, my ass.
Good hamas are basic social workers (indoctrinator). they use terrorist money from iran to build hamas schools that indoctrinate little children to become a human bomb. They use most of their terrorist money to purchase and make weapons. they use some of their resources to buy the people off to sway to their side, like the Hezbollah
model.

There is also good Israel bad Israel---and bad Israel is also up to no good---get a clue---the goal is to settle this one fairly and your bias is showing.

How would you feel if someone stole all your possessions and then said here is this wonderful refugee camp we have for you to live in with squalid conditions---get used to it and please don't resent it or retaliate against us? And we will provide you with a political party that preaches that message while it steals your taxes.

Good Hamas bad Hamas Good Israel Bad Israel---all partially true and false at the same time.
And don't forget the Irish---bad IRA and good IRA with Terry Adams finally defused a crisis that lasted for multi-centuries. And it didn't happen with the Brits refusing to talk to the opposition.
 

Termagant

Senior member
Mar 10, 2006
765
0
0
All of you leftists are ridiculous.

Hamas may have been "democratically" elected but that doesn't mean we have to support them.

The US does not have to support every democracy in the world, only the ones we want to, i.e. the ones that don't want to commit genocide.

The US should fully support Fatah even though they are not democratically elected, just because they are less inclined to kill innocents than Hamas.

The ideal US course of action would be to just exterminate Hamas....
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Originally posted by: Termagant
All of you leftists are ridiculous.

Hamas may have been "democratically" elected but that doesn't mean we have to support them.

The US does not have to support every democracy in the world, only the ones we want to, i.e. the ones that don't want to commit genocide.

The US should fully support Fatah even though they are not democratically elected, just because they are less inclined to kill innocents than Hamas.

The ideal US course of action would be to just exterminate Hamas....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why not cut to the chase---and exterminate all Palestinians---after all this problem has only gone on since 1948----but 3 million people are a lot of people---but if Hitler could kill six million efficiently with gas chambers, can't we take a page out of his book and do it in half the time? And here I thought shock and awe was the GWB mantra. What do we care how barbaric we can be? Did Hitler balk at mere humanitarian concerns---why should we when might makes right?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
The ideal US course of action would be to just exterminate Hamas....

Heh. The ideal course of action for the Israelis would be to just exterminate all the Pals, because killing the Pals' leaders won't solve their problem- Given the nature of ongoing Israeli expropriation and oppression, any legitimate Palestinian leadership will be "radical"... no matter what name they call themselves.

Interesting article-

http://www.gwynnedyer.com/arti...20%20Six-Day%20War.txt

Ehud Olmert, now Israel's prime minister, put it bluntly in an interview with "Yedioth Ahronoth" in 2003. "We are approaching the point where more and more Palestinians will say: 'We have been won over. We agree with (extreme right-wing Israeli politician Avigdor) Lieberman. There is no room for two states between Jordan and the sea. All that we want is the right to vote.' The day they do that is the day we lose everything."

Which is pretty much what the Hamas demand for an end to the state of Israel amounts to. No, they don't want their own little bantustan, they want the same rights and privileges for all people under government rule. Which is what makes them so dangerous to the "Jewish State"...

Abbas and Fatah, otoh, are rapidly becoming the palestinian version of Neville Chamberlain, offering "peace in our time" through appeasement... as if the Israelis will even deliver that...
 

imported_dna

Golden Member
Aug 14, 2006
1,755
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I suggest some of you take a look at the fine videos @ PMW before shedding more tears for the democratically elected hamas. So Jhhnn, all they want is voting rights, eh? Come now, accuse me of "smearing" Hamas.

Perhaps people should remember that the National Socialist party in Germany was also democratically elected, but they also promised to do away with democracy once they were in power, e.g.:
In a pamphlet published in 1935, Goebbels said: "When democracy granted democratic methods for us in the times of opposition, this was bound to happen in a democratic system. However, we National Socialists never asserted that we represented a democratic point of view, but we have declared openly that we used democratic methods only in order to gain the power and that, after assuming the power, we would deny to our adversaries without any consideration the means which were granted to us in the times of opposition."

Surely, with the crackdown on "vice", pop music, and internet cafes bombings that followed Hamas election, you didn't really think that they are about democracy, did you?

Now, who's gonna be the first clown to invoke Godwin's law?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Still desperate, DNA? At least you haven't offered up any fake statistics... Nor have you countered what I said or what the linked article said in any way-

The extremism of Hamas is not a primary cause in and of itself, but rather a reaction to the situation imposed by the Jewish State and all it entails... The whole proposition is inherently extremist, and will remain so provided that the US continues to support Israel unconditionally.

Nice try invoking Goebbels and the usual guilt trip over the Holocaust. Yeh, I know it still works sometimes- playing the victim is so convenient, even when you're the oppressor... and the population of the US has been very well conditioned to react as desired. It's beginning to lose its effiectiveness, however, seeing as how Israel has been talking peace while essentially waging a form of warfare for the last 40 years...