• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Hmmmm. Japan seems to be growing a new pair after all.

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

babylon5

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2000
1,363
1
0
Originally posted by: Deadtrees
Japan has been trying to break the limit set in the consititution. A really good excuse they can come up with is North Korea.
The more aggressive NK gets, the better excuse it becomes for Japan.

The problem is that it will drive the power balance between Japan, China, South Korea, and Taiwan to the extreme. The best thing for the region is to have Japan to stay as they were.
Yep. The last time Japan gets power, it abuses to the extreme. Even now, they refuse to officially acknowledge what happened in WW2.

Even the Germans by now have apologized over and over and over thousand times while Japan refuse to.

 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
345
126
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: Deadtrees
Japan has been trying to break the limit set in the consititution. A really good excuse they can come up with is North Korea.
The more aggressive NK gets, the better excuse it becomes for Japan.

The problem is that it will drive the power balance between Japan, China, South Korea, and Taiwan to the extreme. The best thing for the region is to have Japan to stay as they were.
Wrong.
Dari, please post a Cliff's of your argument. It's too much detail.
China is increasing their military rapidly with all the money they're making. We need a Japan that can assist us, not one that is constrained by an atavistic constitution. Taiwan is on the same page as us. South Korea should be as well but I doubt if they'd care if China attacked Japan.
It's a bit ironic you did not learn the lessons of WWII, that the roots of war with Japan were the west trying to prevent the rise of compeition from Japan, and you want to repeate the same thing with China. You refer to China increasing military spending, but without any comparison to the US spending that dwarfs it.

Perhaps you should recognize that it's perfectly natural for a nation as large as China to have more power in the region, and that the problem may be not that they are getting a bit more power in the region befitting their strength, but rather the efforts by us to keep them far weaker than fits their strength as a nation - which leads to conflict.

I'm as anti-Chinese as most, in terms of seeing them as terrible for their lack of freedom and similar issues, but that doesn't make the answer to force military conflict.

I'm disappointed in both parties for a lack of efforts to get China to improve. But increasing those efforts may be the only appropriate response to their growing strength.

You do know who is giving them all that money with which they're gaining strength, right? Correct, Wal-Mart shoppers. You want to address our doing that with military conflict?

BTW, not many people are aware that the economic success of Japan post-WWII was a direct result of US subsidies to create a competing nation against China in Asia.

How would we feel about that if we were in China's shoes? If you were China, would you not want a stronger military, when yoiu have had your power restricted for decades, as the US has artificially maintained a high level of 'influence' in Asia with various means since WWII.

It's hard to see the choices as not being either China increasing its influence while the US declines there, or military conflict to prevent it.

Yes, I know, we like being 'the only superpower', with the PNAC doctrine calling for the prevention of any rival power, with war if needed, but is that the right policy?

How would we view it if the tables were turned?

Let's start competing with good policies - such as a return to fiscal responsibility and reducing imports - rather than simply acting like an empire to prevent any competition.
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
Doing a quick look online, during WWII Japan killed between 20 million and 35 million Chinese civilians, ~9 million being collateral damage. To this day, Japan has never said "we are sorry", they have never had any remorse over what happened.

So let them lack a pair of balls, I do not trust them to not go on another rampage (even with China on the rise).
They will probably get pwned if they tried anything now that China and South Korea aren't as weak as they were compared to the beginning of the century.
Why would they try anything with China or South Korea? BTW, Japan may not have any nukes but they have tons of nuclear power stations. All it takes is a couple of months for them to turn their uranium into weapons-grade material.
LOL, by the time Japan needs nuclear weapons all their power stations will be glowing along with the rest of the world.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,260
4
81
Originally posted by: Craig234
Great, cheering Japan increasing the militarism, cheering increased chance of conflict.

Taunt them about 'growing a pair', in case anyone mistakenly assumes you have any good sense about Japan's pacifist constitution.

What is it they say about those who don't learn from history?

I have no issue with the story, what Japan is doing, only your take on it.
lol did you not learn shit from history? if you're pacifist you get conquered. If both sides have military power, keeps each other in check.
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,554
2
76
Originally posted by: Craig234
Great, cheering Japan increasing the militarism, cheering increased chance of conflict.

Taunt them about 'growing a pair', in case anyone mistakenly assumes you have any good sense about Japan's pacifist constitution.

What is it they say about those who don't learn from history?

I have no issue with the story, what Japan is doing, only your take on it.
I think we'll all calm down a bit. We just want to encourage them to not be so timid about every single thing in their culture. To start being a little more assertive. They've earned the right, they've 200% learned their lesson from WW2.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
2
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: irishScott
Originally posted by: Craig234
Great, cheering Japan increasing the militarism, cheering increased chance of conflict.

Taunt them about 'growing a pair', in case anyone mistakenly assumes you have any good sense about Japan's pacifist constitution.

What is it they say about those who don't learn from history?

I have no issue with the story, what Japan is doing, only your take on it.
Cheering the potential pressure that they may take off of our backs. Cheering about Japan actually starting to look like it can take care of itself militarily should there be an all-out war with, say, China?

As for increasing the chance of conflict. *sigh*. To invoke an analogous argument: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." If every military in the world spontaneously disarmed, I can still guarantee that some street thug would figure out pretty quickly that if he put a large group of guys with guns together he could take over pretty easily.

As for the relevance of that statement, let's face it. If our military suddenly disappeared from that region, Taiwan would be fucked, South Korea more than likely under siege, and Japan pressured at best, soundly defeated militarily at worst.

The art of war is of vital importance to the State. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected.
- Sun Tzu
It's your framing foreign policy by the reference to 'balls' for Japan that was the problem.

That's the sort of framing used by Coors-imbibing people in bad recliners.

There's a discussion to be had about the right policies - as I've said many times - for a stable peace (and funny enough, I've used almost the same point you did about how a vacuum of power leads to a local person organizing a force that returns to the days of warlords), but mocking Japan for a lack of balls has no place in it.
I'm sorry you feel the need to stereotype me based on my very commonly used terminology. :roll:

This is P&N. I'm not making a presentation to the UN here.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,511
1
81
Originally posted by: babylon5
Originally posted by: Deadtrees
Japan has been trying to break the limit set in the consititution. A really good excuse they can come up with is North Korea.
The more aggressive NK gets, the better excuse it becomes for Japan.

The problem is that it will drive the power balance between Japan, China, South Korea, and Taiwan to the extreme. The best thing for the region is to have Japan to stay as they were.
Yep. The last time Japan gets power, it abuses to the extreme. Even now, they refuse to officially acknowledge what happened in WW2.

Even the Germans by now have apologized over and over and over thousand times while Japan refuse to.
Why should they apologize?

 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Originally posted by: Craig234
Great, cheering Japan increasing the militarism, cheering increased chance of conflict.

Taunt them about 'growing a pair', in case anyone mistakenly assumes you have any good sense about Japan's pacifist constitution.

What is it they say about those who don't learn from history?

I have no issue with the story, what Japan is doing, only your take on it.
I think we'll all calm down a bit. We just want to encourage them to not be so timid about every single thing in their culture. To start being a little more assertive. They've earned the right, they've 200% learned their lesson from WW2.
Are you really that daft, they celebrate the days and have never apologised, not strange since they didn't really have to surrender, their emperor was left in place even though that was the only condition made before the US murdered hundreds of thousands of their civilian population.

I'd rather see Iran with nukes before Japan, at the very least for the sake of the US.
 

Kirby

Lifer
Apr 10, 2006
12,032
2
0
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Originally posted by: Craig234
Great, cheering Japan increasing the militarism, cheering increased chance of conflict.

Taunt them about 'growing a pair', in case anyone mistakenly assumes you have any good sense about Japan's pacifist constitution.

What is it they say about those who don't learn from history?

I have no issue with the story, what Japan is doing, only your take on it.
I think we'll all calm down a bit. We just want to encourage them to not be so timid about every single thing in their culture. To start being a little more assertive. They've earned the right, they've 200% learned their lesson from WW2.
Are you really that daft, they celebrate the days and have never apologised, not strange since they didn't really have to surrender, their emperor was left in place even though that was the only condition made before the US murdered hundreds of thousands of their civilian population.

I'd rather see Iran with nukes before Japan, at the very least for the sake of the US.
Why is there no facepalm smiley?
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
101,569
5,822
126

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
141
106
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Originally posted by: Hajpoj
You don't think Silo's were built during the Cold War before the subs came around? Not to mention, "nuclear tipped" cruise missiles that can be armed at a moment's notice from any cruise launch platform....sheesh
Remember what happened when Russia tried to base weapons outside of their "sphere of influence"?

Unless you have some sort of evidence of Japan holding US nuclear arms or having silos, I will take your post as a comedic one.

I believe it is in Japan's constitution that they will not go nuclear.
Who gives a sht, we can launch ICBM's at anyone who touches Japan so they don't need them. Nobody will mess with Japan b/c of us.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,511
140
106
Originally posted by: irishScott
...and now they threaten to intercept North Korean rockets/missiles. Sweet.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7967202.stm

Japan to 'destroy' N Korea rocket
Satellite image of the North Korean launch pad (11/03/2009)
The launch pad has been picked up on satellite images

Japan says it is deploying missile interceptors to destroy any parts of a North Korean rocket that might fall on its territory.

North Korea has said it will launch a satellite into orbit next month.

South Korea, Japan and the US say the launch is cover for a test of the Taepodong-2 ballistic missile.

The US said a launch would violate UN Security Council resolutions. Russia said North Korea should "abstain" from testing any missiles.

'Assure safety'

Japan's Defence Minister Yasukazu Hamada issued the orders to mobilise Japan's missile defence shield after a meeting with Prime Minister Taro Aso and cabinet ministers.

"We will do our best to handle any flying object from North Korea in order to assure the Japanese people's safety and security," said Mr Hamada.


Map

North Korea's missile programme

"A satellite or a missile - we are displeased with anything that is going to fly over our land, and such an action must be stopped."

It is the first time that constitutionally pacifist Japan has deployed the shield. The country's military is also expected to deploy warships off its coast.

North Korea says it intends to test-fire the rocket between the 4 and 8 April.

The trajectory issued by Pyongyang shows the rocket will pass over Japan, with the first booster stage landing in the sea to the west, the second in the Pacific Ocean to the east.

The interception is only likely to be activated if the launch does not go as planned and debris appears to be falling towards Japan.

Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Alexei Borodavkin told journalists that the launch had led to increased tensions in the region, "and this is why it would be better if our partners in North Korea abstained from this".

Japan revised its Self-Defence Forces Law in 2005, legalising possible interceptions of ballistic missiles.

But the country's pacifist constitution does not allow it to intercept a missile if it is clearly heading elsewhere.

The Japanese government had previously warned it would try to shoot down any missile or debris that threatens to hit its territory.

North Korea has said it would regard any rocket intercept as an act of war.
Also, I'm pretty sure those "helicopter carrying destroyers" as Japan calls them could be refitted to use F-35Bs (the STOVL variant) pretty easily, especially given our relationship with Japan and the international nature of the JSF project.

Personally I see this as a good thing. Maybe in a decade or so they'll be developed enough to take some of the strain off of our forces in the region. Of course that's assuming shit doesn't hit the fan before then.
If you are referring to the Shirane class DDH, I doubt they would make a good platform. They can only carry 3 ASW helicopters.
 

Pocatello

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,754
2
76
It will be nice if we don't have to worry about the security of Japan and S. Korea. They have the ability to defend themselves without us.
 

Deadtrees

Platinum Member
Dec 31, 2002
2,351
0
0
Originally posted by: Pocatello
It will be nice if we don't have to worry about the security of Japan and S. Korea. They have the ability to defend themselves without us.
It's not about U.S worrying about security of Japan and S. Korea. It's about U.S needing bases in those countries surrounding China.
 

uhohs

Diamond Member
Oct 29, 2005
7,656
38
91
Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
Doing a quick look online, during WWII Japan killed between 20 million and 35 million Chinese civilians, ~9 million being collateral damage. To this day, Japan has never said "we are sorry", they have never had any remorse over what happened.

So let them lack a pair of balls, I do not trust them to not go on another rampage (even with China on the rise).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...ements_issued_by_Japan

no written formal apology from the government though.
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,554
2
76
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Originally posted by: Craig234
Great, cheering Japan increasing the militarism, cheering increased chance of conflict.

Taunt them about 'growing a pair', in case anyone mistakenly assumes you have any good sense about Japan's pacifist constitution.

What is it they say about those who don't learn from history?

I have no issue with the story, what Japan is doing, only your take on it.
I think we'll all calm down a bit. We just want to encourage them to not be so timid about every single thing in their culture. To start being a little more assertive. They've earned the right, they've 200% learned their lesson from WW2.
Are you really that daft, they celebrate the days and have never apologised, not strange since they didn't really have to surrender, their emperor was left in place even though that was the only condition made before the US murdered hundreds of thousands of their civilian population.

I'd rather see Iran with nukes before Japan, at the very least for the sake of the US.
Read up on your history bud.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY