Hizbullah 'victory' boosts extremists

[Aisengard]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?...&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

These people are going to run the Middle East right into the ground. Or below it. It's pretty much in the ground as it is. Obviously there's no appeasing them, they want Israel gone. Not just for their 'atrocities', but because they have a deep-seated hatred of Israel nothing but nothing can overcome. It's been drilled into them since birth, and like faithful sheep they believe Israel is just going to go away if enough of them strap bombs to their chests.

Why is this okay with people? Why is wanting destruction of a sovereign nation and a people a good thing?

No one seems to recognize the fact that if Israel was just left alone, everyone could live in peace. Yes, Israel is a military country, but these maniacs have made it so, with their greediness and murderous intent tolerated worldwide, just because their leaders choose to force them to live in poverty by spending all their money on rockets to fire at a neighboring country, and then conveniently blame it on that country when they get their commupance.

Why can't people see past the charade? Ah well. I really feel sorry for the sheep that think Hezbollah 'defeated' the Israeli army. Heck, there were more Hezbollah casualties than Israeli ones, and Israel was holding back their real force, Israel was letting everyone know the exact time and place of every attack, and Israel was fighting a dug-in enemy, who wore civilian clothes, all on the enemy's land. I've never seen a worse victory in all of human history.

Hezbollah claiming a victory obviously doesn't count the Lebanese as their people, or Lebanon as their own land. So much for claiming to be the 'protectors' of the Lebanese people, eh?

"You didn't kill every single last one of us, so we win!" What a child. The sad thing is there are people on this forum cheering this maniac on.

 

[StepUp]

I think the point is that you can't defeat their ideology. That's their victory, and destroying the nation of Lebanon just caused more moderates to support Hezbollah.

 

[Aimster]

Israel was not holding back their real force. What is their real force? nuclear weapons? & nobody is going around saying Hezbollah defeated the Israeli army. Israel unleashed everything they had. If you are suggesting Isreal has some kind of real force that could have been used then please share it with us.

& we are talking about the Palestinian people. You expect the Palestinian people to love Israel?

The Palestinian people are not important in the future of the M.E in terms of what they want and think. They are not loved by anyone.

so when you talk about these people ...... who are you talking about? Palestinians?
Yeah... they are a threat to Israel....beware Israel!

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel was not holding back their real force. What is their real force? nuclear weapons? & nobody is going around saying Hezbollah defeated the Israeli army. Israel unleashed everything they had. If you are suggesting Isreal has some kind of real force that could have been used then please share it with us.

Obviously Israel stuck to a comparatively very modest force. It was at most 30,000 troops in Lebannon during the last few days, while Israel could call up all their reservists and have a force of at least 600,000 troops if necessary.

 

[trance247]

Hooray to brainwashed warmonging lunatics, same people were cheering on the street @ 9/11...Israel is the only one brave enough to really stand up, while world watches...

 

[Starbuck1975]

Well let's play out the various scenarios, and take the nuclear option off the table for the time being.

If Israel wanted to, they could have quite easily marched on Beirut, and possibly transformed Lebanon into one giant buffer zone between themselves and Iran/Syria.

Of course, the whole point of this little war was to compel the Lebanese government to crack down on the militant Hezbollah elements that seemingly have free reign within Lebanon.

I will give you a comperable example...in America, particularly the LA area, many gangs began to organize and militarize in the 70s and 80s...leading to the gang warfare of the 90s...yet this violence and these groups have been unable to extend their influence, or launch a unified offensive against authority figures, because they are very much kept in check by the rule of law.

As there are no consequences for Hezbollah, they are pretty much free to do as they wish in Lebanon.

There was no victor in this war...and the people of Lebanon who do not subscribe to Hezbollah's rhetoric are the ones who ultimately suffer.

 

[Moonbeam]

These people are going to run the Middle East right into the ground.

M: You mean those animals, don't you?Or below it.

Obviously there's no appeasing them, they want Israel gone. Not just for their 'atrocities', but because they have a deep-seated hatred of Israel nothing but nothing can overcome. It's been drilled into them since birth, and like faithful sheep they believe Israel is just going to go away if enough of them strap bombs to their chests.

M: Sounds like you are as sure of yourself as they are.

Why is this okay with people? Why is wanting destruction of a sovereign nation and a people a good thing?

M: Yes, that is the only meaningful question. Focus only on that.

No one seems to recognize the fact that if Israel was just left alone, everyone could live in peace. Yes, Israel is a military country, but these maniacs have made it so, with their greediness and murderous intent tolerated worldwide, just because their leaders choose to force them to live in poverty by spending all their money on rockets to fire at a neighboring country, and then conveniently blame it on that country when they get their commupance.

M: Yup, left alone with all that stolen land, right?

Why can't people see past the charade? Ah well. I really feel sorry for the sheep that think Hezbollah 'defeated' the Israeli army. Heck, there were more Hezbollah casualties than Israeli ones, and Israel was holding back their real force, Israel was letting everyone know the exact time and place of every attack, and Israel was fighting a dug-in enemy, who wore civilian clothes, all on the enemy's land. I've never seen a worse victory in all of human history.

M: I can't quite decide why I am calm and see no victory. I should learn to jump up and down.

Hezbollah claiming a victory obviously doesn't count the Lebanese as their people, or Lebanon as their own land. So much for claiming to be the 'protectors' of the Lebanese people, eh?

M: Well I fail to see it as a victory so this makes no sense to me.

"You didn't kill every single last one of us, so we win!" What a child. The sad thing is there are people on this forum cheering this maniac on.

M: While others on another lunatic fringe claim they are loons.

 

[Termagant]

Israel was not holding back their real force.

Their real force would be fighting the way the Arab states would fight. That is with no regard for human life. That is indiscriminately attacking anything which potentially is a Hezbollah target. Israel showed great restraint when thousands of vehicles were streaming back and forth between Lebanon and Syria, with a few unfortunate situations of civilian casualties.

There were numerous reports of Israeli pilots questioning their targeting data and not dropping precision bombs onto structures because they thought civilians were there or the intel was bad. That is restraint.

Yup, left alone with all that stolen land, right?

So when will the Kingdom of Saud give back the land they stole from the other tribes of Arabia?

Why is this okay with people? Why is wanting destruction of a sovereign nation and a people a good thing?

M: Yes, that is the only meaningful question. Focus only on that.

This is a very meaningful question. I can't understand how our "enlightened" members can call for this.

I guess it stems from the self hate. And hatred of a "religious" state. Never mind that many other states like Japan have harsher rules on demographics. Just no religion, because that's like kryptonite for the "enlightened" members, even if they feign fascination with spirituality.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Termagant

Israel was not holding back their real force.

Their real force would be fighting the way the Arab states would fight. That is with no regard for human life. That is indiscriminately attacking anything which potentially is a Hezbollah target. Israel showed great restraint when thousands of vehicles were streaming back and forth between Lebanon and Syria, with a few unfortunate situations of civilian casualties.

There were numerous reports of Israeli pilots questioning their targeting data and not dropping precision bombs onto structures because they thought civilians were there or the intel was bad. That is restraint.

Yup, left alone with all that stolen land, right?

So when will the Kingdom of Saud give back the land they stole from the other tribes of Arabia?

Why is this okay with people? Why is wanting destruction of a sovereign nation and a people a good thing?

M: Yes, that is the only meaningful question. Focus only on that.

This is a very meaningful question. I can't understand how our "enlightened" members can call for this.

I guess it stems from the self hate. And hatred of a "religious" state. Never mind that many other states like Japan have harsher rules on demographics. Just no religion, because that's like kryptonite for the "enlightened" members, even if they feign fascination with spirituality.

How "Arab States" fight?

I think you have no idea what it is you are talking about.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Termagant

Israel was not holding back their real force.

Their real force would be fighting the way the Arab states would fight. That is with no regard for human life. That is indiscriminately attacking anything which potentially is a Hezbollah target. Israel showed great restraint when thousands of vehicles were streaming back and forth between Lebanon and Syria, with a few unfortunate situations of civilian casualties.

There were numerous reports of Israeli pilots questioning their targeting data and not dropping precision bombs onto structures because they thought civilians were there or the intel was bad. That is restraint.

Yup, left alone with all that stolen land, right?

So when will the Kingdom of Saud give back the land they stole from the other tribes of Arabia?

Why is this okay with people? Why is wanting destruction of a sovereign nation and a people a good thing?

M: Yes, that is the only meaningful question. Focus only on that.

This is a very meaningful question. I can't understand how our "enlightened" members can call for this.

I guess it stems from the self hate. And hatred of a "religious" state. Never mind that many other states like Japan have harsher rules on demographics. Just no religion, because that's like kryptonite for the "enlightened" members, even if they feign fascination with spirituality.

How "Arab States" fight?

I think you have no idea what it is you are talking about.

Perhaps you confuse analysis of an argumentative style and the content offered therein as support for the other side. I am saying only that because the case was presented with so many absurd, unexamined assumptions as to appear irrational and foolish. It was an emotional tantrum but little more, in my opinion.

 

[Aisengard]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
These people are going to run the Middle East right into the ground.

M: You mean those animals, don't you?

Excuse me?

Obviously there's no appeasing them, they want Israel gone. Not just for their 'atrocities', but because they have a deep-seated hatred of Israel nothing but nothing can overcome. It's been drilled into them since birth, and like faithful sheep they believe Israel is just going to go away if enough of them strap bombs to their chests.

M: Sounds like you are as sure of yourself as they are.

Well, I'm only making assumptions on what I read. Take this for example:

"This war has shown once again that Israel is much weaker than it is perceived, especially in the Arab world," said Ziad Abdel Fattah, a Fatah operative from a village near Ramallah. "Other than kill hundreds of civilians, Israel failed to achieve most of its goals, particularly the destruction of Hizbullah. Everyone saw how Israeli soldiers were forced to retreat in the face of the heroes of Hizbullah."

See what I mean? These people know no reality except for the false one provided by their leaders. And they lap it up.

Why is this okay with people? Why is wanting destruction of a sovereign nation and a people a good thing?

M: Yes, that is the only meaningful question. Focus only on that.

Okay, so why is it okay with people to want the total destruction of Israel? Note that I, nor anyone here has wished the total destruction of any Arab state or their people. We just want them to leave Israel alone. And no, Hezbollah does not count as 'a people'.

No one seems to recognize the fact that if Israel was just left alone, everyone could live in peace. Yes, Israel is a military country, but these maniacs have made it so, with their greediness and murderous intent tolerated worldwide, just because their leaders choose to force them to live in poverty by spending all their money on rockets to fire at a neighboring country, and then conveniently blame it on that country when they get their commupance.

M: Yup, left alone with all that stolen land, right?

Your willful ignorance is stifling, to say the least.

Why can't people see past the charade? Ah well. I really feel sorry for the sheep that think Hezbollah 'defeated' the Israeli army. Heck, there were more Hezbollah casualties than Israeli ones, and Israel was holding back their real force, Israel was letting everyone know the exact time and place of every attack, and Israel was fighting a dug-in enemy, who wore civilian clothes, all on the enemy's land. I've never seen a worse victory in all of human history.

M: I can't quite decide why I am calm and see no victory. I should learn to jump up and down.

That is good that you see no victory. In that case I'm not talking about you. That you assumed I was is rather arrogant, but also a nice way to divert from the topic at hand.

Hezbollah claiming a victory obviously doesn't count the Lebanese as their people, or Lebanon as their own land. So much for claiming to be the 'protectors' of the Lebanese people, eh?

M: Well I fail to see it as a victory so this makes no sense to me.

Read above. Then we have no argument on this matter.

"You didn't kill every single last one of us, so we win!" What a child. The sad thing is there are people on this forum cheering this maniac on.

M: While others on another lunatic fringe claim they are loons.

It's nice for you to say I'm a lunatic, but since you have provided no argument supporting that, I'll just feel free to ignore that little comment until you can do so.

 

[LunarRay]

We don't need to go all the way to the ME to examine how folks think as they do..

How can a Liberal be so much different that a Conservative... or How can a Conservative support what must be obvious to anyone a failed action in the Iraqi war and a Liberal be so contra to it.. ?

Or how can a Religious person abhor a sinful one.. or even seek to deny the rights they demand to the sinful but lawful one..

Folks all over can justify hate on any level.. I'm sure in your own town or on the street you live you can find polarized thinking that is no different than our ME thinking but on a different topic or people..

People are not all that nice to each other.. anywhere..

 

[Termagant]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Termagant

Israel was not holding back their real force.

Their real force would be fighting the way the Arab states would fight. That is with no regard for human life. That is indiscriminately attacking anything which potentially is a Hezbollah target. Israel showed great restraint when thousands of vehicles were streaming back and forth between Lebanon and Syria, with a few unfortunate situations of civilian casualties.

There were numerous reports of Israeli pilots questioning their targeting data and not dropping precision bombs onto structures because they thought civilians were there or the intel was bad. That is restraint.

Yup, left alone with all that stolen land, right?

So when will the Kingdom of Saud give back the land they stole from the other tribes of Arabia?

Why is this okay with people? Why is wanting destruction of a sovereign nation and a people a good thing?

M: Yes, that is the only meaningful question. Focus only on that.

This is a very meaningful question. I can't understand how our "enlightened" members can call for this.

I guess it stems from the self hate. And hatred of a "religious" state. Never mind that many other states like Japan have harsher rules on demographics. Just no religion, because that's like kryptonite for the "enlightened" members, even if they feign fascination with spirituality.

How "Arab States" fight?

I think you have no idea what it is you are talking about.

Perhaps I was mistaken. The Arab states usual method of fighting is by completely loosing. My other comments stand.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Termagant

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Termagant

Israel was not holding back their real force.

Their real force would be fighting the way the Arab states would fight. That is with no regard for human life. That is indiscriminately attacking anything which potentially is a Hezbollah target. Israel showed great restraint when thousands of vehicles were streaming back and forth between Lebanon and Syria, with a few unfortunate situations of civilian casualties.

There were numerous reports of Israeli pilots questioning their targeting data and not dropping precision bombs onto structures because they thought civilians were there or the intel was bad. That is restraint.

Yup, left alone with all that stolen land, right?

So when will the Kingdom of Saud give back the land they stole from the other tribes of Arabia?

Why is this okay with people? Why is wanting destruction of a sovereign nation and a people a good thing?

M: Yes, that is the only meaningful question. Focus only on that.

This is a very meaningful question. I can't understand how our "enlightened" members can call for this.

I guess it stems from the self hate. And hatred of a "religious" state. Never mind that many other states like Japan have harsher rules on demographics. Just no religion, because that's like kryptonite for the "enlightened" members, even if they feign fascination with spirituality.

How "Arab States" fight?

I think you have no idea what it is you are talking about.

Perhaps I was mistaken. The Arab states usual method of fighting is by completely loosing. My other comments stand.

Yeah lets bring up the 1960s.

U.S lost a war then too.

Looks like U.S loses at wars.

& All the Arab states never attacked Israel. Israel is a small country.

I take it you live in Israel or you just hate Arabs/Muslims.

Grow up.

 

[Aisengard]

First you spout off some nonsense about Israel dispensing all it force that was debunked, so then you just claim someone doesn't have any idea what they're talking about, while, surprise surprise, you've shown you don't.

Now you respond with sarcasm that completely misses the point, and make another unfounded claim that satisfies your views.

Aimster, please practice what you preach before you come crawling back.

 

[Termagant]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Termagant

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Termagant

Israel was not holding back their real force.

Their real force would be fighting the way the Arab states would fight. That is with no regard for human life. That is indiscriminately attacking anything which potentially is a Hezbollah target. Israel showed great restraint when thousands of vehicles were streaming back and forth between Lebanon and Syria, with a few unfortunate situations of civilian casualties.

There were numerous reports of Israeli pilots questioning their targeting data and not dropping precision bombs onto structures because they thought civilians were there or the intel was bad. That is restraint.

Yup, left alone with all that stolen land, right?

So when will the Kingdom of Saud give back the land they stole from the other tribes of Arabia?

Why is this okay with people? Why is wanting destruction of a sovereign nation and a people a good thing?

M: Yes, that is the only meaningful question. Focus only on that.

This is a very meaningful question. I can't understand how our "enlightened" members can call for this.

I guess it stems from the self hate. And hatred of a "religious" state. Never mind that many other states like Japan have harsher rules on demographics. Just no religion, because that's like kryptonite for the "enlightened" members, even if they feign fascination with spirituality.

How "Arab States" fight?

I think you have no idea what it is you are talking about.

Perhaps I was mistaken. The Arab states usual method of fighting is by completely loosing. My other comments stand.

Yeah lets bring up the 1960s.

U.S lost a war then too.

Looks like U.S loses at wars.

& All the Arab states never attacked Israel. Israel is a small country.

I take it you live in Israel or you just hate Arabs/Muslims.

Grow up.

So how would an Arab state fight if it was under fire from a militia like Israel was?

Regarding loses and victories I think the historical war record between Israel and its enemies speaks for itself.

 

[Moonbeam]

See I can also be irrational, but I probably really owe the OP a less reactionary approach:

A: These people are going to run the Middle East right into the ground. Or below it. It's pretty much in the ground as it is.

M: things are not good.

A: Obviously there's no appeasing them, they want Israel gone. Not just for their 'atrocities', but because they have a deep-seated hatred of Israel nothing but nothing can overcome.

M: So far this seems true. What it need not be is inevitable. Perhaps though as the world becomes more and more tired of these people sucking all the oxygen out of the world more pressure will be brought to bear for them to settle.

M: It's been drilled into them since birth, and like faithful sheep they believe Israel is just going to go away if enough of them strap bombs to their chests.

M: We have been convinced from birth that this is how they are. There is the matter of why they became that way. There are two sides to this story and I don't think it's all black and white.

A: Why is this okay with people? Why is wanting destruction of a sovereign nation and a people a good thing?

M: In part that sovereign nation was created on what the Arabs think of as their land. Your characterization leaves little room for other interpretations. It is focus on only a part of the issue and created a generalization that is false and demonizing of the other side. It is a partial truth only.

A: No one seems to recognize the fact that if Israel was just left alone, everyone could live in peace. Yes, Israel is a military country, but these maniacs have made it so, with their greediness and murderous intent tolerated worldwide, just because their leaders choose to force them to live in poverty by spending all their money on rockets to fire at a neighboring country, and then conveniently blame it on that country when they get their commupance.

M: If a thief wants you to stop trying to get your property back what do you call his request for you to leave him alone. There is unsettled business there and another story you forget. People don't want just peace they want a just peace.

A: Why can't people see past the charade? Ah well. I really feel sorry for the sheep that think Hezbollah 'defeated' the Israeli army. Heck, there were more Hezbollah casualties than Israeli ones, and Israel was holding back their real force, Israel was letting everyone know the exact time and place of every attack, and Israel was fighting a dug-in enemy, who wore civilian clothes, all on the enemy's land. I've never seen a worse victory in all of human history.

M: You demonize the other side like they demonize us. You are as convinced you are right as they are that they are. Do you think peace is any more possible for you. You do not hear the other side. How can you make peace. You see them only as monsters.

A: Hezbollah claiming a victory obviously doesn't count the Lebanese as their people, or Lebanon as their own land. So much for claiming to be the 'protectors' of the Lebanese people, eh?

M: What does it matter how this is spun. Nothing changes the true reality. If you really thought this notion was absurd why would you be so upset. I think the fact is that no matter what you say or claim or any reality on the ground, for Hezbollah this is a victory at least in how they feel. Victory for them is not what it is for you. You aren't them so you see differently than they do. But like it or not the Arabs see victory here. Your thinking doesn't really impress them but theirs pisses you off. They won that one too, no?

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Termagant

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Termagant

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Termagant

Israel was not holding back their real force.

Their real force would be fighting the way the Arab states would fight. That is with no regard for human life. That is indiscriminately attacking anything which potentially is a Hezbollah target. Israel showed great restraint when thousands of vehicles were streaming back and forth between Lebanon and Syria, with a few unfortunate situations of civilian casualties.

There were numerous reports of Israeli pilots questioning their targeting data and not dropping precision bombs onto structures because they thought civilians were there or the intel was bad. That is restraint.

Yup, left alone with all that stolen land, right?

So when will the Kingdom of Saud give back the land they stole from the other tribes of Arabia?

Why is this okay with people? Why is wanting destruction of a sovereign nation and a people a good thing?

M: Yes, that is the only meaningful question. Focus only on that.

This is a very meaningful question. I can't understand how our "enlightened" members can call for this.

I guess it stems from the self hate. And hatred of a "religious" state. Never mind that many other states like Japan have harsher rules on demographics. Just no religion, because that's like kryptonite for the "enlightened" members, even if they feign fascination with spirituality.

How "Arab States" fight?

I think you have no idea what it is you are talking about.

Perhaps I was mistaken. The Arab states usual method of fighting is by completely loosing. My other comments stand.

Yeah lets bring up the 1960s.

U.S lost a war then too.

Looks like U.S loses at wars.

& All the Arab states never attacked Israel. Israel is a small country.

I take it you live in Israel or you just hate Arabs/Muslims.

Grow up.

So how would an Arab state fight if it was under fire from a militia like Israel was?

Regarding loses and victories I think the historical war record between Israel and its enemies speaks for itself.

This is not the 1960s. Do you really want to bring up wars that happened yearssss ago? In the 1960s the Arab nations were just starting to boom.

Israel has lost a lot more men in this current conflict than they ever imagined and you are sitting here telling me they can handle the entire force of the Arabs if they ever wished to unite? As good as Israel's military is please use some common sense. The U.S can barely handle Iraq and this is an Iraq who is not even fighting, yet magically Israel is going to do wonders the U.S couldn't do? HA.

That's as stupid as this one guy in OT who said the U.S military can just march into China and occupy it in less than 2 months.

& I dont know what it is you have against the "Arab" people but the majority of the people in Israel are of Arab origin. Sorry to hurt your feelings but that is the truth. Exactly why you cannot tell the difference between an Israeli and a Palestinian if they stood next to each other wearing the same clothing.

This is not some video game where it is that easy.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Aisengard

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
These people are going to run the Middle East right into the ground.

M: You mean those animals, don't you?

Excuse me?

Obviously there's no appeasing them, they want Israel gone. Not just for their 'atrocities', but because they have a deep-seated hatred of Israel nothing but nothing can overcome. It's been drilled into them since birth, and like faithful sheep they believe Israel is just going to go away if enough of them strap bombs to their chests.

M: Sounds like you are as sure of yourself as they are.

Well, I'm only making assumptions on what I read. Take this for example:

"This war has shown once again that Israel is much weaker than it is perceived, especially in the Arab world," said Ziad Abdel Fattah, a Fatah operative from a village near Ramallah. "Other than kill hundreds of civilians, Israel failed to achieve most of its goals, particularly the destruction of Hizbullah. Everyone saw how Israeli soldiers were forced to retreat in the face of the heroes of Hizbullah."

See what I mean? These people know no reality except for the false one provided by their leaders. And they lap it up.

Why is this okay with people? Why is wanting destruction of a sovereign nation and a people a good thing?

M: Yes, that is the only meaningful question. Focus only on that.

Okay, so why is it okay with people to want the total destruction of Israel? Note that I, nor anyone here has wished the total destruction of any Arab state or their people. We just want them to leave Israel alone. And no, Hezbollah does not count as 'a people'.

No one seems to recognize the fact that if Israel was just left alone, everyone could live in peace. Yes, Israel is a military country, but these maniacs have made it so, with their greediness and murderous intent tolerated worldwide, just because their leaders choose to force them to live in poverty by spending all their money on rockets to fire at a neighboring country, and then conveniently blame it on that country when they get their commupance.

M: Yup, left alone with all that stolen land, right?

Your willful ignorance is stifling, to say the least.

Why can't people see past the charade? Ah well. I really feel sorry for the sheep that think Hezbollah 'defeated' the Israeli army. Heck, there were more Hezbollah casualties than Israeli ones, and Israel was holding back their real force, Israel was letting everyone know the exact time and place of every attack, and Israel was fighting a dug-in enemy, who wore civilian clothes, all on the enemy's land. I've never seen a worse victory in all of human history.

M: I can't quite decide why I am calm and see no victory. I should learn to jump up and down.

That is good that you see no victory. In that case I'm not talking about you. That you assumed I was is rather arrogant, but also a nice way to divert from the topic at hand.

Hezbollah claiming a victory obviously doesn't count the Lebanese as their people, or Lebanon as their own land. So much for claiming to be the 'protectors' of the Lebanese people, eh?

M: Well I fail to see it as a victory so this makes no sense to me.

Read above. Then we have no argument on this matter.

"You didn't kill every single last one of us, so we win!" What a child. The sad thing is there are people on this forum cheering this maniac on.

M: While others on another lunatic fringe claim they are loons.

It's nice for you to say I'm a lunatic, but since you have provided no argument supporting that, I'll just feel free to ignore that little comment until you can do so.

I rewrote my response to your original post, probably as you wrote this because I got to feeling guilty about what looked to be its tone.

 

[Termagant]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Termagant

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Termagant

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Termagant

Israel was not holding back their real force.

Their real force would be fighting the way the Arab states would fight. That is with no regard for human life. That is indiscriminately attacking anything which potentially is a Hezbollah target. Israel showed great restraint when thousands of vehicles were streaming back and forth between Lebanon and Syria, with a few unfortunate situations of civilian casualties.

There were numerous reports of Israeli pilots questioning their targeting data and not dropping precision bombs onto structures because they thought civilians were there or the intel was bad. That is restraint.

Yup, left alone with all that stolen land, right?

So when will the Kingdom of Saud give back the land they stole from the other tribes of Arabia?

Why is this okay with people? Why is wanting destruction of a sovereign nation and a people a good thing?

M: Yes, that is the only meaningful question. Focus only on that.

This is a very meaningful question. I can't understand how our "enlightened" members can call for this.

I guess it stems from the self hate. And hatred of a "religious" state. Never mind that many other states like Japan have harsher rules on demographics. Just no religion, because that's like kryptonite for the "enlightened" members, even if they feign fascination with spirituality.

How "Arab States" fight?

I think you have no idea what it is you are talking about.

Perhaps I was mistaken. The Arab states usual method of fighting is by completely loosing. My other comments stand.

Yeah lets bring up the 1960s.

U.S lost a war then too.

Looks like U.S loses at wars.

& All the Arab states never attacked Israel. Israel is a small country.

I take it you live in Israel or you just hate Arabs/Muslims.

Grow up.

So how would an Arab state fight if it was under fire from a militia like Israel was?

Regarding loses and victories I think the historical war record between Israel and its enemies speaks for itself.

This is not the 1960s. Do you really want to bring up wars that happened yearssss ago? In the 1960s the Arab nations were just starting to boom.

Israel has lost a lot more men in this current conflict than they ever imagined and you are sitting here telling me they can handle the entire force of the Arabs if they ever wished to unite? As good as Israel's military is please use some common sense. The U.S can barely handle Iraq and this is an Iraq who is not even fighting, yet magically Israel is going to do wonders the U.S couldn't do? HA.

That's as stupid as this one guy in OT who said the U.S military can just march into China and occupy it in less than 2 months.

& I dont know what it is you have against the "Arab" people but the majority of the people in Israel are of Arab origin. Sorry to hurt your feelings but that is the truth. Exactly why you cannot tell the difference between an Israeli and a Palestinian if they stood next to each other wearing the same clothing.

This is not some video game where it is that easy.

I can't understand how anything in your response stems from what I said. Israel fight all of the Arab world? Why does that come up?

Physical difference between Israelis and Palestinians? How does that relate to the discussion?

My point stands that Israel has exercised restraint in attacking Hezbollah in Lebanon.

 

[Aisengard]

Thank you. I appreciate your more level response, and agree that I have my viewpoint just as they have theirs.

I think the crux of the matter is what they view as stolen land, Jews view as theirs. Remember that two generations of Jews have been born on this land, and two generations of Palestinians have been born not on it.

It's getting to a point where the Palestinians are just allowed to be greedy, since if the Jews never came along 80 years ago, they'd be living on that land. It's like reparations for black people. Yeah, your ancestors were murdered and disenfranchised, and your businesses stolen and your rights trampeled, but why should we uninvolved pay, when we didn't do those things to you.

Also please note that Israeli Arabs do not have to pay taxes (but still vote and have say in the government), and much of the 'discrimination' against them is horrendously exaggerated by the propogating press.

Israel has given back something like 90% of the land it captured in the 1967 war which was not started by Israel. To claim that suicide bombings and countless rocket attacks are justified because Israel has not given back that 10% of desert I think is ludicrous, and shouldn't be tolerated. Also remember that Israel had a resolution on the table which gave everything back and then some to the Palestinian people. It even made East Jerusalem their capital if they so chose. But Yasser Arafat flatly rejected the deal. Palestinians are taught to view all of Israel as their rightful land, when there is a UN charter and 80 years apart from it saying otherwise. Should we give Texas back to Mexico if the Mexicans demand it?

 

[railer]

speaking of sheep........

 

[Genx87]

Hey it isnt just Hizbullah but Andrea Mitchell on the Morning Show that called this a victory for Hizbullah.

 

[Craig234]

"Hooray to brainwashed warmonging lunatics, same people were cheering on the street @ 9/11"

Brainwashed warmongering lunatics describes you, IMO. Aren't you the one who spends the most on arms and is perfectly willing to use them elsewhere more than other nations?

Aren't you the one happy to demonize others with statements like the above to justify your using violence?

The US has a long sordid history it has not taken responsibility for, going on to this day, in the middle east.

It's not black and white - the US is both a nation which can take pride in much of its championing of liberty in its history, as well as acting in quite selfish, evil ways at times.

Most of the American people are ignorant of most of the US history. Nearly all know the US was in WWII, a small percent know of most of the wars America was in in the last century.

Take Iran - put yourselves in their shoes. A century ago, England set itself up for cheap extraction of oil by putting governments in who would not represent the people, but would instead serve the interests of the oil buyers. By 1953, a situation arose where someone who did represent the Iranian people was put into power under the democratic system which for a change had not been manipulated, and England got the US to use its new CIA in its first covert op to get rid of the legitimate leader and put the exiled shah in power as a dictator to the point of setting him up with a brutal police force; so Iranians had to endure 25 years of that tyranny directly at the US's fault, guaranteeing its oil cheaply.

Now, can you compare that to anything Iran has done to the US? If you were in their shoes, wouldn't you hate the US too?

So, when Iran finally overthrows the Shah - the US under Jimmy Carter, following Viet Nam and Watergate not replacing the Shah - what does the US do?

It encourages the dictator next door, Saddam, to invade Iran, in a war which got two 'enemies' to fight each other with a million casualties, weakening both.

Fine machivellian policy, but how would you like it if you were Iran? How would you feel about a power which got others to invade us in a war with a million casualties?

So, we've screwed the Iranians for fifty years. It's about time we admit it and try an honest, moral foreign policy for a change. Otherwise, why aren't they entitled to do to us the same up to the point of putting a mullah with a brutal police force in charge of America for 25 years, and then having us invaded in a war that had millions of casualties - by far the worst in our history - proportionate to the casualties they suffered? Anything less is hypocrisy on our part.

We're hardly going to allow that - yet our having done what we did and never admitted the wrong makes us the bad guy. The world and Iran know what we did; the sanitized version of history that it's too bad Iran somehow had a dictator magically appear in 1953, and that Saddam was a bad guy to invade them, and that we've been only nice to Iran and yet they put these crazy clerics in power who want to destroy us, is propaganda for the American people to keep them supporting the war policies.

The clerics are rotten leaders - and our policies put them in power, as opposed to the much more moderate leaders had we not done what we did. The Iranian people have been amazingly supportive of the US considering the history, and would have been better able to overthrow the mullahs, but look at what the US has continued to do from its propping up of the corrupt Saud government who is Iran's enemy, to the war in Iraq in large part commited to set the US up, now surrounding Iran, to be ready for threatening Iran.

(It didn't quite work out that way as the US's plan for puppet Chalabi in Iraq did not work, and they've replace an anti-Iran mullah leader, Saddam, with pro-Iran mullah leaders).

What's needed for peace in the middle east?

For one, some dialogue that hasn't happened in a long time which takes into account the act of Europe and the US in placing millions of Jewish people, forcefully, into the middle east into a hyper-armed nuclear power, while dealing with the fact that it did happen and undoing that is not too likely - compromises may be possible, if there's pressure on all sides, which is not the case now - and second, the global powers need to stop encouraging the conflict by using the countries in the middle east as proxy puppet states.

There may be a worry that the middle eastern nations could have too much power (over their own resource) to have a monopoly on the west with oil, but surely there are better solutions to that than the current system of propping up dictatorial regimes in exchange for cheap oil.

The problem now includes that I don't see the US wanting peace much in the middle east.

And our own democracy has failed; it's based on an informed public acting morally and rationally.

Instead, we have a notoriously ignorant public acting selfishly, and not rationally much.

Our leaders say who the bad guys are, and the public says 'go kill them'. Comparing our government's embracing of Saddam at the height of his bad behavior, and then calling him the biggest threat to our nation to justify war against him citing those same behaviors over a decade later, only illustrates the gap between why policy is set and the public's failure to have the sort of informed direction of policy democracy intended for it to have.

Until we fix our own democracy, which is currently supporting a very corrupt set of people, there's not a lot of room for improvement in places like the middle east.

Read PNAC, and see the plan for US empire - all the while recognizing that the US is destroying its own position down the road. Ready for China and the 'new US', the one with the gutted middle class, the return to pre-FDR social systems, the one more like a police state for 'security', to rule?