Hizballah rockets kill 10, injure 4

[Aisengard]

Were they in uniform? And not all, dumbass, 3 civilian deaths to go along with 12 reservists who were probably not even in uniform yet.

Heck, a ton of the Lebanese 'civilian' death tolls were probably Hezbollah 'reservists', although we don't know because Hezbollah don't wear uniforms (aka terrorists). Convenient, eh?

 

[Accord99]

Originally posted by: Aisengard
Were they in uniform? And not all, dumbass, 3 civilian deaths to go along with 12 reservists who were probably not even in uniform yet.

I'm sure they were, why else were there such a concentration. The civilian deaths came from Haifa.

Heck, a ton of the Lebanese 'civilian' death tolls were probably Hezbollah 'reservists', although we don't know because Hezbollah don't wear uniforms (aka terrorists). Convenient, eh?

Actually they do wear uniforms, and flak jackets and night vision goggles.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/07/world...ast/07hezbollah.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Two options:

1) Take the word of AP writers in the conflict area based on observation.

or

2) Take the word of Genx87 sitting half a world away behind a computer, based on his common sense alone.

:roll:

Tough decisions.

ROFL. How naive can you be?

1) Up until yesterday, Reuters was a credible source for images, too;

2) Senyora claimed to have 40 fatalities at an incident, then changed to one, just goes to show how accurate/false their system is;

3) How do you think AP gathers those statistics? By digging out the bodies and comparing dental records? They get the numbers from Hizbullah spokesmen, just like they get the numbers from Israeli authorities on Israeli casualities.
IDF claims to have hit 350-400, among these IDF claims to have specific name list for about 200.

There's a specific reason a 1:1 number is kept. Hizbullah doesn't want to deflate the numbers beyond what's needed, however it wants to show the Israeli public that Hizbullah is more than a match for IDF. You'd have to ask yourself how that's possible, as every incident usually ends up with 4-10 dead Hizbullah terrorists and 0-3 IDF casualities, other than what happend at the beginning of the war. And that's only the publicized stories, excluding Special Forces operations which are vast.

I mean, I can count the reported deaths of Hizbullah terrorists in the media from publicized incidents, without taking airstrikes into account, and still exceed the number given by Hizbullah.

Leave that bunch of crap for them "kiddies of the Islamic revolution" like The Green Bean

 

[strummer]

Originally posted by: RichardE

The only problem is this can be easily explained by the fact that Israel cares about its civilians and Lebannon does not. During the years and years between war what did both countries do?

Israel built bomb shelters for its citizens, Hizballah built tunnels for its army.

If Hizballah built bomb shelters for its citizens I am sure the civililian number would be the same.

I really love how you guys totally disregard the fact there were no military targets anywhere near these civilian homes, and that they are randomly firing rockets into Israel residential targets hoping to kill woman/children.

So in the end what you are saying is it is alright for Hizballah to launch rockets into Israel to even up the score? Or is it because you want Israel to fail as well? Maybe if the Arab nations actually treated there civilians as something other than dog meat/human shields you would see less civilian casulaties. Of course the Arab nations have to grow up before we see this.

First off - Hezbollah is not the government of Lebanon. So trying to equate them with the Israeli goverment is a categorical error. Who really knows what either Hezbollah or the Israeli government thinks at this point in time. There are reports that the Israeli's have specifically not eliminated all the rocket launching sites since the continuing launches make it easier to justify a deeper, more prolonged incursion into southern Lebanon. For the record, I don't believe these reports, but there is at least a possibility that they are true.

Second - Israel is essentially holding four million people hostage right now. They have deliberately destroyed the infrastructure of a country whose population is made up of far more than Hezzabollah or Shiites. They have hit not only the possible arms resupply
network, but the communication network, trade network and power grid as well. TV stations, internet servers, power transfer stations - have been targeted. Someone is going to have to explain to me how bombing TV stations and internet servers is going to stop Hezbollah from re-arming. I don't see it and it looks like collective punishment to me.

Thirdly - Hezbollah is giving the Israeli's everything they can handle. You can usually count on the Israeli's to be smart about these kinds of things, but I am somewhat troubled that they blew this so completely and by the fact that their intelligence was so bad. For all intents and purposes, Hezbollah has already won.

Your view is a simple one, much like that of BushCo. Both sides are guilty of committing war crimes. I am completely on board with Israel's right to exist. And this means to securely exist, without the threat of periodic rocket attacks on their citizens. Saying that - their invasion has been a tremendous overreaction to the kidnapping of the two IDF soldiers. Both sides have been playing a dangerous game of cat and mouse with each other for some time along the border, before the IDF soldiers were kidnapped and Israel overreacted. In time, a strong moderate government in Lebanon would've been able to control the Beka Valley and areas along the border, that is a pipe dream now as Hezbollah has taken the mantle of the only ones who can defend the country.

But here is the important part that is lost on all the warmongers and neocon fools - by invading, Israel has given Hezbollah just what they were looking for. The invasion is completely counterproductive to their goal of long term security. Hezbollah is giving the IDF everything they can handle, on a battlefield of their choosing. Hezbollah wasn't very popular in Lebanon (as a whole) before the invasion, now they are tremendously popular not only with their wayward (in their opinion) Sunni breathen, but also with Christians and Druze.

If a free election was held tomorrow in Lebanon, Hezbollah would capture the government. The Christian Lebanese government has already shown that they powerless and ineffective. So this democratically elected moderate government that was seated in elections that were trumpeted by BushCo as a sign of progress for the region, has had its legs taken out from beneath it. They were the moderates that were going to be instrumental in procurring a lasting peace, yet they have been neutered and flushed down the toilet. Good luck waiting for the moderates to gain power in Lebanon anytime soon. Without the moderates, a lasting peace will never be achieved.

And you can't look at this without putting it in the context of the region as a whole. BushCo's excellent adventure in Iraq has essentially assured that Hezbollah is going to be permanently armed from Iran. It is just one of the many reasons that Iraq was such a fvcked up gambit. All we have managed to do in Iraq is empower the Shiites, and by proxy, their fundamentalist patrons in Tehran. We have taken the one strategic advantage we had in the region, that being the Shiite vs. Sunni dynamic, and weakened it tremendously. Bush's Iraq invasion also has set back the moderation of Iran by years. We empowered the clerics and we did it by choice. It doesn't get much stupider than that.

There is nothing okay with Hezbollah launching rockets into northern Israel, just like there is nothing okay with the IDF bombing carelessly or indiscriminately. None of it is okay - thats why an immediate cease fire is necessary. Then maybe the Israeli's can get their 2 soldiers back for a couple Hezbollah soldiers that have been captured. Just like should've happened a month ago.

 

[Genx87]

So if Hizbollah takes all the seats in Lebanon does that give Israel the green light to apply the scorched earth policy to the country until they surrender unconditionally?

 

[strummer]

Originally posted by: Genx87
So if Hizbollah takes all the seats in Lebanon does that give Israel the green light to apply the scorched earth policy to the country until they surrender unconditionally?

Sure. Or they can just can occupy it. See if they can fvck up as badly as the US has fvcked up Iraq. We can have a contest to see who can create more terrorists.

 

[linkgoron]

Originally posted by: strummer

Originally posted by: Genx87
So if Hizbollah takes all the seats in Lebanon does that give Israel the green light to apply the scorched earth policy to the country until they surrender unconditionally?

Sure. Or they can just can occupy it. See if they can fvck up as badly as the US has fvcked up Iraq. We can have a contest to see who can create more terrorists.

Oh come on, Iraq has more people, it's not a fair game.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: strummer

Originally posted by: Genx87
So if Hizbollah takes all the seats in Lebanon does that give Israel the green light to apply the scorched earth policy to the country until they surrender unconditionally?

Sure. Or they can just can occupy it. See if they can fvck up as badly as the US has fvcked up Iraq. We can have a contest to see who can create more terrorists.

I love the idea terrorists are created, as if they were just a part in the factory awaiting assembly.

The people who are going to become a terrorist for the various reasons they become terrorist thugs, have, and will become one no matter the actions Israel or the United States takes. These people are ignorant, hateful, easily manipulated thugs who dont need an excuse to join the ranks. One more bomb or one more patrol wont suddenly change them into a terrorist.

but maybe if this organization took control of the lebonese govt and then was forced to broker a deal as the official hands of the state it could get their people to adhere to the peace deal. Although who knows, intelligence doesnt seem to run high in that part of the world.

 

[strummer]

Originally posted by: Genx87


I love the idea terrorists are created, as if they were just a part in the factory awaiting assembly.

The people who are going to become a terrorist for the various reasons they become terrorist thugs, have, and will become one no matter the actions Israel or the United States takes. These people are ignorant, hateful, easily manipulated thugs who dont need an excuse to join the ranks. One more bomb or one more patrol wont suddenly change them into a terrorist.

Terrorists are created. They are created by conditions such as economic hardship and continual persecution. Easy to fill the heads of people with any brand of fanantical religous tripe when they don't have a pot to piss in and their only hope comes from churchs or mosques. Thats another reason why bombing Lebanon's infrastructure is a horrible idea, it will have serious economic consequences that is going to create even more human suffering and misery. Kids are going to grow up in misery and they are going to look for someone to blame for that.

And there are also going to be a lot of future terrorists out to avenge the deaths of some loved ones. And while I would say that none condone it, it can be understood that some father is going to avenge the death of his children or something along those lines. Simple human revenge - it has stood the test of time.

 

[strummer]

Originally posted by: Genx87


but maybe if this organization took control of the lebonese govt and then was forced to broker a deal as the official hands of the state it could get their people to adhere to the peace deal. Although who knows, intelligence doesnt seem to run high in that part of the world.

Hezbollah is never going to accept that Israel has the right to exist. Never. Having the Lebanese government in their hands would be a disaster.

And I love the throw-away line about there not being much intelligence in that part of the world. They are smart enough in Iraq to find a way to bog down the most powerful military in the history of the world. And they are smart enough in southern Lebanon to bog down the region's most powerful military using second rate weapons.

Its always a good idea to underestimate the abilities of your opponents - I think Sun Tzu said that.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: fallenangel99
"Including the casualties announced today, 59 Israeli soldiers and at least 36 civilians have been killed. Before Sunday, the deadliest day for Israel was last Thursday, when 12 people were killed.

In Lebanon, about 700 people have been killed, a vast majority of them civilians, according to Lebanese security officials."

Link

There. Please don't counter and say that NY Times is Anti-Semetic.

Heh, the NYT must have corrected their Anti-Zionist comments., I don't see any mention of what you quoted on their site or anywhere on the net. I don't see anything like what Skyclad1uhm1 claimed was in his BBC link either.

Out of 15 who died in that series of attacks 12 reserve soldiers died, leaving only 3 civilians.

12 > 3 usually.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: strummer

Originally posted by: Genx87


I love the idea terrorists are created, as if they were just a part in the factory awaiting assembly.

The people who are going to become a terrorist for the various reasons they become terrorist thugs, have, and will become one no matter the actions Israel or the United States takes. These people are ignorant, hateful, easily manipulated thugs who dont need an excuse to join the ranks. One more bomb or one more patrol wont suddenly change them into a terrorist.

Terrorists are created. They are created by conditions such as economic hardship and continual persecution. Easy to fill the heads of people with any brand of fanantical religous tripe when they don't have a pot to piss in and their only hope comes from churchs or mosques. Thats another reason why bombing Lebanon's infrastructure is a horrible idea, it will have serious economic consequences that is going to create even more human suffering and misery. Kids are going to grow up in misery and they are going to look for someone to blame for that.

And there are also going to be a lot of future terrorists out to avenge the deaths of some loved ones. And while I would say that none condone it, it can be understood that some father is going to avenge the death of his children or something along those lines. Simple human revenge - it has stood the test of time.

Hmm...there must be one more ingredient to terrorists, I can't quite place my finger on it. Since economic hardship and continual persuection can be found everywhere on the planet...

what could that be...

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: strummer

Originally posted by: Genx87


I love the idea terrorists are created, as if they were just a part in the factory awaiting assembly.

The people who are going to become a terrorist for the various reasons they become terrorist thugs, have, and will become one no matter the actions Israel or the United States takes. These people are ignorant, hateful, easily manipulated thugs who dont need an excuse to join the ranks. One more bomb or one more patrol wont suddenly change them into a terrorist.

Terrorists are created. They are created by conditions such as economic hardship and continual persecution. Easy to fill the heads of people with any brand of fanantical religous tripe when they don't have a pot to piss in and their only hope comes from churchs or mosques. Thats another reason why bombing Lebanon's infrastructure is a horrible idea, it will have serious economic consequences that is going to create even more human suffering and misery. Kids are going to grow up in misery and they are going to look for someone to blame for that.

And there are also going to be a lot of future terrorists out to avenge the deaths of some loved ones. And while I would say that none condone it, it can be understood that some father is going to avenge the death of his children or something along those lines. Simple human revenge - it has stood the test of time.

Sure they are but you are assuming lebanon was some utopian dream before this. My point is the amount of hate in that part of the world isnt going to create any more terrorists than what would be created already if Israel drops a bomb on a Hizbollah position.

This notion we should run scared and not engage these groups because it might inflame the people harboring them is silly. We may as well just put the white flags up.

Hezbollah is never going to accept that Israel has the right to exist. Never. Having the Lebanese government in their hands would be a disaster.

Not at all, it will be the best thing to happen imo because it slaps the world community in the face. Just like Hamas where the world rejoiced a terrorist organization was head of a govt and a turning point. It would force them to either abide by international standards or lose what moral high ground they have brainwashed the rest of the world with.

It also legitmizes them in the world eyes and lets Israel destroy them without impunity.

And I love the throw-away line about there not being much intelligence in that part of the world. They are smart enough in Iraq to find a way to bog down the most powerful military in the history of the world. And they are smart enough in southern Lebanon to bog down the region's most powerful military using second rate weapons.

Its always a good idea to underestimate the abilities of your opponents - I think Sun Tzu said that.

Laying roadside bombs isnt very intelligent. It doesnt achieve a real strategic goal.
And my intelligence comment is directed towards your avg person in that region. Anybody who embraces an ideology that has brought nothing but ruin to their country for the past 30 years lacks intelligence.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: strummer

Originally posted by: RichardE

The only problem is this can be easily explained by the fact that Israel cares about its civilians and Lebannon does not. During the years and years between war what did both countries do?

Israel built bomb shelters for its citizens, Hizballah built tunnels for its army.

If Hizballah built bomb shelters for its citizens I am sure the civililian number would be the same.

I really love how you guys totally disregard the fact there were no military targets anywhere near these civilian homes, and that they are randomly firing rockets into Israel residential targets hoping to kill woman/children.

So in the end what you are saying is it is alright for Hizballah to launch rockets into Israel to even up the score? Or is it because you want Israel to fail as well? Maybe if the Arab nations actually treated there civilians as something other than dog meat/human shields you would see less civilian casulaties. Of course the Arab nations have to grow up before we see this.

First off - Hezbollah is not the government of Lebanon. So trying to equate them with the Israeli goverment is a categorical error. Who really knows what either Hezbollah or the Israeli government thinks at this point in time. There are reports that the Israeli's have specifically not eliminated all the rocket launching sites since the continuing launches make it easier to justify a deeper, more prolonged incursion into southern Lebanon. For the record, I don't believe these reports, but there is at least a possibility that they are true.

Second - Israel is essentially holding four million people hostage right now. They have deliberately destroyed the infrastructure of a country whose population is made up of far more than Hezzabollah or Shiites. They have hit not only the possible arms resupply
network, but the communication network, trade network and power grid as well. TV stations, internet servers, power transfer stations - have been targeted. Someone is going to have to explain to me how bombing TV stations and internet servers is going to stop Hezbollah from re-arming. I don't see it and it looks like collective punishment to me.

Thirdly - Hezbollah is giving the Israeli's everything they can handle. You can usually count on the Israeli's to be smart about these kinds of things, but I am somewhat troubled that they blew this so completely and by the fact that their intelligence was so bad. For all intents and purposes, Hezbollah has already won.

Your view is a simple one, much like that of BushCo. Both sides are guilty of committing war crimes. I am completely on board with Israel's right to exist. And this means to securely exist, without the threat of periodic rocket attacks on their citizens. Saying that - their invasion has been a tremendous overreaction to the kidnapping of the two IDF soldiers. Both sides have been playing a dangerous game of cat and mouse with each other for some time along the border, before the IDF soldiers were kidnapped and Israel overreacted. In time, a strong moderate government in Lebanon would've been able to control the Beka Valley and areas along the border, that is a pipe dream now as Hezbollah has taken the mantle of the only ones who can defend the country.

But here is the important part that is lost on all the warmongers and neocon fools - by invading, Israel has given Hezbollah just what they were looking for. The invasion is completely counterproductive to their goal of long term security. Hezbollah is giving the IDF everything they can handle, on a battlefield of their choosing. Hezbollah wasn't very popular in Lebanon (as a whole) before the invasion, now they are tremendously popular not only with their wayward (in their opinion) Sunni breathen, but also with Christians and Druze.

If a free election was held tomorrow in Lebanon, Hezbollah would capture the government. The Christian Lebanese government has already shown that they powerless and ineffective. So this democratically elected moderate government that was seated in elections that were trumpeted by BushCo as a sign of progress for the region, has had its legs taken out from beneath it. They were the moderates that were going to be instrumental in procurring a lasting peace, yet they have been neutered and flushed down the toilet. Good luck waiting for the moderates to gain power in Lebanon anytime soon. Without the moderates, a lasting peace will never be achieved.

And you can't look at this without putting it in the context of the region as a whole. BushCo's excellent adventure in Iraq has essentially assured that Hezbollah is going to be permanently armed from Iran. It is just one of the many reasons that Iraq was such a fvcked up gambit. All we have managed to do in Iraq is empower the Shiites, and by proxy, their fundamentalist patrons in Tehran. We have taken the one strategic advantage we had in the region, that being the Shiite vs. Sunni dynamic, and weakened it tremendously. Bush's Iraq invasion also has set back the moderation of Iran by years. We empowered the clerics and we did it by choice. It doesn't get much stupider than that.

There is nothing okay with Hezbollah launching rockets into northern Israel, just like there is nothing okay with the IDF bombing carelessly or indiscriminately. None of it is okay - thats why an immediate cease fire is necessary. Then maybe the Israeli's can get their 2 soldiers back for a couple Hezbollah soldiers that have been captured. Just like should've happened a month ago.

Hezbollah is the de facto government of the south, the portion of Lebannon that is in war right now, as well as holds seat in the government of Lebannon. Sugar it up anyway you want too, they had a responsibility to the people of there areas and instead used that power to attack Israel.

Second you said it yourself, they hit the communication network. Why would they allow Hez to communicate between themselves? Put them on satellite phones instead so they are easier to find.

It depends on whose numbers you belive. I personally think a good percentage of these civilians deats are Hez fighters in civilian clothing. Once they start wearing a uniform I will think differently.

As for analys, it has been a month. Israel is not the States, who pussyfoot around trying to be nice to everyone, they actually have the balls to go in there and do what needs to be done while giving the finger to everyone. Why has the world sat around on there asses for the last while just saying there should be an agreement but not actually doing anything? They are sitting there because they want Israel to succeeed. The only region right now which has not really been affected by radical muslims is China. Europe, Russia, South Asia, North America, everyone who has dealt with Islam/Jihad up close and personal is cheering Israel on, because Israel is doing something these other nations cannot. They are finally dealing with Islam with a population that supports it and understands what it takes. This isn't Iraq, This isn't Afghanistand, in both those places the US was not threatened as a nation, the public didn't support it because those two countries were not affecting the US. Hiz, Syria, Lebbanon, Iran, they all threatened Israel, and because of that Israel will deal with these people, it doesn't matter what you sit back and say, or why you think it is wrong, because personally, you are talking out of your ass. You can look across a sea and see 25 people-30 people dying on average in bombed out houses, and sit back and cry outrage, what is an outrage though, is how silent you were when Israel civilains were living in fear daily of being bombed, or torn to pieces by sharpnel. How silent you people were when entire cafe's were destroyed by an emo muslim. What is pathetic is how you people sit back and defend, and cheer on a group of people who have gone on record, and told the world they want to kill civillians. That is the true crime here. A country defends herself, after decades of daily attacks from all sides and now everyone wants to say it in unfair. Well Israel has a military for a reason, and it is about time it started protecting its people and dealing with this international scum that should be killed by all accounts. No giving up land, no giving supplies, nothing will stop these extremists because there have one goal. The death of Israel and everyone who lives there, and with that axe hanging over the head of Israel every day, I for one will cheer them on as they finally deal with these viruses that that the hosts of those countries refuse to deal with.

 

[IrateLeaf]

:thumbsup: