Hillary taking on the tough issues

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Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Hillary was trying to make sales of violent video games to minors a crime in NYC. Non-compliance with a voluntary rating system should be criminalized? Absolutely not.

I didn't realize they had left the content on. They did the same thing with GTA: San Andreas, spawning a massive recall when the "hot coffee" mod was discovered. I can imagine it would be hard to go in and remove everyting related to the offensive content from every directory it might exist in without removing something critical for a different section of the game... But in this age of hackery, you've got to be absolutely sure that anything accessible on the disc is kosher...

As far as ratings themselves are concerned, they are never going to be perfect. The people at the ESRB aren't playing through every video game looking for offensive content. They give a list of potentially ratable criteria to developers, have them prepare a video highligting the most violent, most profane, most sexual moments that happen in the game. Maybe a game gets a T rating, then someone discovers someone in a cutscene is smoking what could be a joint, and now it needs an M rating... The ESRB simply can't play through every game, it would take years to get anything released.

And the problem with ratings is not limited to the ESRB. The MPAA hides its rating process, to the point of threatening films that expose the identities of raters with an NC17 rating. Movies like The Bad Lieutenant get hit with an NC17 for a brief shot of Harvey Keitel's penis, but having dozens of topless women is fine for an R rating (Monty Python's Meaning of Life for example). Sex and nudity are almost always rated stricter than violence, which is a bit ludicrous; Showgirls gets an NC17 for lots of breasts, while Se7en gets an R, despite its disturbing violence. But it's not just penises or vaginas or breasts, because you see a whole lot of those in Schindler's List... still an R rating.

I guess my point here is that ratings are entirely subjective. Trying to mandate any sort of law on a subjective standard is a recipe for disaster. It does not work. What is offensive to some WASP in Texas would probably not faze me. But if she's a content rater and I'm not, her opinion suddenly holds more sway. That's nonsensical, and to legislate based off that is pointless. Ratings are meant as a guide, nothing more. Parents should take an active interest in their children's hobbies and view the content themselves to determine if it is appropriate. It is not the responsibility of the ESRB or the MPAA or any ratings board to make sure your children aren't exposed to media intended for adults.

What happens to a clerk who sells porn to a 13 year old?

I don't think it should be criminalized myself, but it is an issue that needs greater attention.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Originally posted by: Arkaign
What happens to a clerk who sells porn to a 13 year old?

I don't think it should be criminalized myself, but it is an issue that needs greater attention.

You're right, it does need greater attention. If only evolution had seen fit to create a caretaker of sorts for the young... Alas, I guess it's governments job to do it.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,945
122
106
Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
This is insanity, is she simply trying to make herself even more "undesirable" then even John Kerry managed to make himself? Whats going on with the advisers in my party ;(

..what's in the well will come up in the bucket. you know the clintons are scum bags. slap your self for being surprised.

 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Originally posted by: IGBT
Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
This is insanity, is she simply trying to make herself even more "undesirable" then even John Kerry managed to make himself? Whats going on with the advisers in my party ;(

..what's in the well will come up in the bucket. you know all politicians are scum bags. slap your self for being surprised.

Fixed :)

 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,834
1
0
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Arkaign
What happens to a clerk who sells porn to a 13 year old?

I don't think it should be criminalized myself, but it is an issue that needs greater attention.

You're right, it does need greater attention. If only evolution had seen fit to create a caretaker of sorts for the young... Alas, I guess it's governments job to do it.

LOL, just like parents and the goverment can keep the alcohol/drugs/etc away from kids. These games are going to be even harder to keep out of the hands of youngsters.

I know it's just a game but a movie is just a movie too and I wouldn't want an 8 year old watching Clockwork Orange.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Arkaign
What happens to a clerk who sells porn to a 13 year old?

I don't think it should be criminalized myself, but it is an issue that needs greater attention.

You're right, it does need greater attention. If only evolution had seen fit to create a caretaker of sorts for the young... Alas, I guess it's governments job to do it.

LOL, just like parents and the goverment can keep the alcohol/drugs/etc away from kids. These games are going to be even harder to keep out of the hands of youngsters.

I know it's just a game but a movie is just a movie too and I wouldn't want an 8 year old watching Clockwork Orange.

Wait, so you admit that government is no more fit to keep drugs and alcohol away from kids, yet it sounds like you want them involved in defining what entertainment is suitable as well?
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,834
1
0
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Arkaign
What happens to a clerk who sells porn to a 13 year old?

I don't think it should be criminalized myself, but it is an issue that needs greater attention.

You're right, it does need greater attention. If only evolution had seen fit to create a caretaker of sorts for the young... Alas, I guess it's governments job to do it.

LOL, just like parents and the goverment can keep the alcohol/drugs/etc away from kids. These games are going to be even harder to keep out of the hands of youngsters.

I know it's just a game but a movie is just a movie too and I wouldn't want an 8 year old watching Clockwork Orange.

Wait, so you admit that government is no more fit to keep drugs and alcohol away from kids, yet it sounds like you want them involved in defining what entertainment is suitable as well?

What's the matter, you can't talk without trying to put words in my mouth. Go argue with yourself then.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,630
2,014
126
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Arkaign
What happens to a clerk who sells porn to a 13 year old?

I don't think it should be criminalized myself, but it is an issue that needs greater attention.

You're right, it does need greater attention. If only evolution had seen fit to create a caretaker of sorts for the young... Alas, I guess it's governments job to do it.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,834
1
0
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Arkaign
What happens to a clerk who sells porn to a 13 year old?

I don't think it should be criminalized myself, but it is an issue that needs greater attention.

You're right, it does need greater attention. If only evolution had seen fit to create a caretaker of sorts for the young... Alas, I guess it's governments job to do it.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

More romper room rhetoric. :laugh:
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,945
122
106
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Citrix
its a freaking shame that senators are more concerned about a stupid video game than our borders.

What borders?


..it's called rope-a-dope. and it's working on most ya'll.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Arkaign
What happens to a clerk who sells porn to a 13 year old?

I don't think it should be criminalized myself, but it is an issue that needs greater attention.

You're right, it does need greater attention. If only evolution had seen fit to create a caretaker of sorts for the young... Alas, I guess it's governments job to do it.

LOL, just like parents and the goverment can keep the alcohol/drugs/etc away from kids. These games are going to be even harder to keep out of the hands of youngsters.

I know it's just a game but a movie is just a movie too and I wouldn't want an 8 year old watching Clockwork Orange.

Wait, so you admit that government is no more fit to keep drugs and alcohol away from kids, yet it sounds like you want them involved in defining what entertainment is suitable as well?

What's the matter, you can't talk without trying to put words in my mouth. Go argue with yourself then.

Then please, parse that tangled mess of words from your last post as I obviously can't. You said it needed greater attention, then said that parents and government can't keep alcohol and drugs away from kids. Who exactly do you propose will give this the attention you feel it needs?

You make no sense, old man.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,834
1
0
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Arkaign
What happens to a clerk who sells porn to a 13 year old?

I don't think it should be criminalized myself, but it is an issue that needs greater attention.

You're right, it does need greater attention. If only evolution had seen fit to create a caretaker of sorts for the young... Alas, I guess it's governments job to do it.

LOL, just like parents and the goverment can keep the alcohol/drugs/etc away from kids. These games are going to be even harder to keep out of the hands of youngsters.

I know it's just a game but a movie is just a movie too and I wouldn't want an 8 year old watching Clockwork Orange.

Wait, so you admit that government is no more fit to keep drugs and alcohol away from kids, yet it sounds like you want them involved in defining what entertainment is suitable as well?

What's the matter, you can't talk without trying to put words in my mouth. Go argue with yourself then.

Then please, parse that tangled mess of words from your last post as I obviously can't. You said it needed greater attention, then said that parents and government can't keep alcohol and drugs away from kids. Who exactly do you propose will give this the attention you feel it needs?

You make no sense, old man.

Well, maybe I didn't say it clearly enough or then again perhaps your just not experienced enough to relate to what I'm trying to say sonny.

I think we need some type of regulation to keep some of this stuff from filtering down to young and impressionable kids. It's easy to sit back and blame poor parenting for many of societies ills, but to then turn around and try to say that it's not the goverments place to define entertainment, but THE PARENTS ARE THE GOVERMENT and they want restrictions to make the job of rasing their kids safer and easier. Nobody can watch their kids 24/7, that's why society already passes laws so minors can't buy alcohol, tobbaco, porn, etc.





 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Arkaign
What happens to a clerk who sells porn to a 13 year old?

I don't think it should be criminalized myself, but it is an issue that needs greater attention.

You're right, it does need greater attention. If only evolution had seen fit to create a caretaker of sorts for the young... Alas, I guess it's governments job to do it.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Ah, so you don't think the government should have anything to do with what our children can and cannot buy?

You were a cop. Did it bother you that it was illegal to sell porn, cigarrettes, or alcohol to minors?
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,729
559
126
Violent video games are to Hillary what Steriods in MLB were to republicans. Since tackling real issues that people face every day would require a spine and actually willingness to stand for something, a non-issue is dragged up and beat upon to distract the populous and give them the ability to say "Well, I did something!" Even if that something happens to be nothing more then spinning their wheels and kicking up a lot of sand.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Originally posted by: PingSpike
Violent video games are to Hillary what Steriods in MLB were to republicans. Since tackling real issues that people face every day would require a spine and actually willingness to stand for something, a non-issue is dragged up and beat upon to distract the populous and give them the ability to say "Well, I did something!" Even if that something happens to be nothing more then spinning their wheels and kicking up a lot of sand.

I can agree with that for the most part.

Personally, I disagree with involving government legislation or action in this area if the voluntary ratings board works well (the ESRB has done a pretty good job overall).

In the case of this letter, I think it's mostly showboating, but harmless.

In the case of the apparent attempt to criminalize the sale of violent video games to minors in NY/NYC (haven't heard about it previously), I think that's probably a bit too far.

Involving the senate or house in things like the now infamous Moveon.org ad, with actual bills and tax money spent on media events, I think it's a bit asinine.

I'm willing to step back and look at this honestly. I'm overtly disgusted with both political parties, so I can be pretty even handed when it comes to this stuff.

I would have condemned the Democrats if they put forward a similar action towards an ad in a newspaper.

I would have moderately supported the Republicans if they had written this letter to the ESRB.

I would have moderately opposed the Republicans if they had supported the criminalization of the sale of violent video games to minors. The reason for the moderation in this regard is the fact that it is a criminal offense to sell many other things to minors that are similarly inappropriate for children, and that has worked out fairly well, overall.

That said, *nothing* can effectively replace good parenting skills and the time to spend with them. If the parents fail, there's not a helluva lot that the government or anyone else can do to protect them. All we can do is have some checks and balances, and safeguards like the laws we already have on the books.
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
15,425
2
0
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Yep, specific example of a product that has the wrong rating applied. If there was a PG-13 movie with people being treated the same as in 'Manhunt 2', people would be asking the MPAA how that slipped by.
Isn't Manhunt rated Mature? That's 17 and older correct?

Did the motion picture industry do away with the R rating,? I don't think so, and likewise, that's 17 and older.

So you'd need to compare the Mature rating on a video game to an R rating for a movie, not PG 13.

Here's the definitions:

MATURE
Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language.

An R-rated motion picture, in the view of the Rating Board, contains some adult material. An R-rated motion picture may include adult themes, adult activity, hard language, intense or persistent violence, sexually-oriented nudity, drug abuse or other elements, so that parents are counseled to take this rating very seriously. Children under 17 are not allowed to attend R-rated motion pictures unaccompanied by a parent or adult guardian. Parents are strongly urged to find out more about R-rated motion pictures in determining their suitability for their children. Generally, it is not appropriate for parents to bring their young children with them to R-rated motion pictures.

I've seen some pretty explicit stuff in R rated movies, and I don't see why Mature for video games should be any different. But your comparison of Mature to PG13 is telling of the mindset many people have when they consider video gaming. I think a few senators have that same point of view.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Originally posted by: jjones
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Yep, specific example of a product that has the wrong rating applied. If there was a PG-13 movie with people being treated the same as in 'Manhunt 2', people would be asking the MPAA how that slipped by.
Isn't Manhunt rated Mature? That's 17 and older correct?

Did the motion picture industry do away with the R rating,? I don't think so, and likewise, that's 17 and older.

So you'd need to compare the Mature rating on a video game to an R rating for a movie, not PG 13.

Here's the definitions:

MATURE
Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language.

An R-rated motion picture, in the view of the Rating Board, contains some adult material. An R-rated motion picture may include adult themes, adult activity, hard language, intense or persistent violence, sexually-oriented nudity, drug abuse or other elements, so that parents are counseled to take this rating very seriously. Children under 17 are not allowed to attend R-rated motion pictures unaccompanied by a parent or adult guardian. Parents are strongly urged to find out more about R-rated motion pictures in determining their suitability for their children. Generally, it is not appropriate for parents to bring their young children with them to R-rated motion pictures.

I've seen some pretty explicit stuff in R rated movies, and I don't see why Mature for video games should be any different. But your comparison of Mature to PG13 is telling of the mindset many people have when they consider video gaming. I think a few senators have that same point of view.

The thing is that while kids get carded when trying to buy tickets for R-rated films, they can walk off with an M game with the same content (or worse, in the case of Manhunt 2, or *much* worse, in the case of the hacktivated Manhunt 2).

AO = 18 and over only
M = 17 and over recommended

Big difference.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
MATURE
"Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language."

ADULTS ONLY
"Titles rated AO (Adults Only) have content that should only be played by persons 18 years and older. Titles in this category may include prolonged scenes of intense violence and/or graphic sexual content and nudity."

I think they should change the M to be 17+ Only, not 17+ Recommended.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,987
1
0
Originally posted by: PingSpike
Violent video games are to Hillary what Steriods in MLB were to republicans. Since tackling real issues that people face every day would require a spine and actually willingness to stand for something, a non-issue is dragged up and beat upon to distract the populous and give them the ability to say "Well, I did something!" Even if that something happens to be nothing more then spinning their wheels and kicking up a lot of sand.

QFT. :thumbsup:
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,729
559
126
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: jjones
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Yep, specific example of a product that has the wrong rating applied. If there was a PG-13 movie with people being treated the same as in 'Manhunt 2', people would be asking the MPAA how that slipped by.
Isn't Manhunt rated Mature? That's 17 and older correct?

Did the motion picture industry do away with the R rating,? I don't think so, and likewise, that's 17 and older.

So you'd need to compare the Mature rating on a video game to an R rating for a movie, not PG 13.

Here's the definitions:

MATURE
Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language.

An R-rated motion picture, in the view of the Rating Board, contains some adult material. An R-rated motion picture may include adult themes, adult activity, hard language, intense or persistent violence, sexually-oriented nudity, drug abuse or other elements, so that parents are counseled to take this rating very seriously. Children under 17 are not allowed to attend R-rated motion pictures unaccompanied by a parent or adult guardian. Parents are strongly urged to find out more about R-rated motion pictures in determining their suitability for their children. Generally, it is not appropriate for parents to bring their young children with them to R-rated motion pictures.

I've seen some pretty explicit stuff in R rated movies, and I don't see why Mature for video games should be any different. But your comparison of Mature to PG13 is telling of the mindset many people have when they consider video gaming. I think a few senators have that same point of view.

The thing is that while kids get carded when trying to buy tickets for R-rated films, they can walk off with an M game with the same content (or worse, in the case of Manhunt 2, or *much* worse, in the case of the hacktivated Manhunt 2).

AO = 18 and over only
M = 17 and over recommended

Big difference.

I wasn't aware there was a law preventing kids from buying rated R movies. It was my understanding that usually the industry self regulates by avoiding this, but it is not a hard and fast rule...just a guideline. The ratings system for video games is similar, and is now increasing its self regulation as a result of the pressure it is under. However, it is ultimately up to each individual establishment if they wish to enforce this or not.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Hillary taking on the tough issues

Everytime I come to P&N and see that thread title it makes laugh.

Oh, can somebody make an Unreal Tournamnet mod so we can run around fragging the candidates? Taking head shots on some of these boobs would be so vastly satisfying. ;)

Fern
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,987
1
0
Originally posted by: scott
How on earth could ANY intelligent person even consider voting for the utterly corrupt through and through scumbag Hillary Clinton?

are people really that willing to be led by the nosering? That asleep?

Yes. 2004 was full of sheep voting for Kerry for the sole reason "He isn't Bush" ...

2008 will see a similar group voting for whoever the Dem nominee is on similarly shallow reasoning.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,785
6,187
126
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: scott
How on earth could ANY intelligent person even consider voting for the utterly corrupt through and through scumbag Hillary Clinton?

are people really that willing to be led by the nosering? That asleep?

Yes. 2004 was full of sheep voting for Kerry for the sole reason "He isn't Bush" ...

2008 will see a similar group voting for whoever the Dem nominee is on similarly shallow reasoning.

I will be voting for Hillary because she is Hillary. Republicans hate her for a reason, she must be good.