Hillary Clinton says Putin’s actions are like ‘what Hitler did back in the ’30s’

[Fern]

If you want to ensure civil unrest and ethnic cleansing decades later , let an outside body redraw borders.
-snip-

And letting the countries do it themselves is how you end with war in the first place.

Fern

 

[Texashiker]

And letting the countries do it themselves is how you end with war in the first place.

Fern

Kinda like how Crimea is going to vote to leave the Ukraine and join Russia?

The only people who seem to have a problem with a democracy (will of the people), are everyone besides the people voting.

The people of Crimea are supposed to vote on whether to join Russia, or stay part of the Ukraine. President obama and the Ukraine both seem to have a problem with the people voting.

All we need now is a warmongering Winston Churchill saying Russia must be destroyed, and we have everything for World War III.

Some of the main differences between world war II and the current situation with Crimea, Putin is showing a lot of restraint. Where hitler would probably have already invaded the Ukraine and overthrew its government, Putin is pushing for free elections.

I seriously doubt the international community is going to respect the results of free elections and the will of the people.

 

[MrPickins]

I seriously doubt the international community is going to respect the results of free elections and the will of the people.

The will of a people that were moved there by the USSR to "Russify" the area? Or the original inhabitants?

 

[Texashiker]

The will of a people that were moved there by the USSR to "Russify" the area? Or the original inhabitants?

Lets take that another step.

If moving people discredits their vote, blacks and whites who were victims of forced integration in the 1960s and 1970s should not be allowed to vote?

Blacks were brought over from Africa, maybe not count the black vote in the next election?

Or better yet, only allow Native Americans to vote in elections?

Since Europeans and blacks are not native to the Americans, just disqualify our vote?

Is that what you are saying?

 

[Fern]

Kinda like how Crimea is going to vote to leave the Ukraine and join Russia?

No. I'm referring to two different countries settling borders. That starts wars.

The Ukraine and Crimea are not two different countries. That's different. They're not settling borders.

The only people who seem to have a problem with a democracy (will of the people), are everyone besides the people voting.

The people of Crimea are supposed to vote on whether to join Russia, or stay part of the Ukraine. President obama and the Ukraine both seem to have a problem with the people voting.

All we need now is a warmongering Winston Churchill saying Russia must be destroyed, and we have everything for World War III.

Some of the main differences between world war II and the current situation with Crimea, Putin is showing a lot of restraint. Where hitler would probably have already invaded the Ukraine and overthrew its government, Putin is pushing for free elections.

I seriously doubt the international community is going to respect the results of free elections and the will of the people.

The people of Crimea were polled about 2 weeks before Russia invaded and by 58%/42% they opposed joining Russia.

And I think it insane that any would support Russian occupation while such a referendum took place.

Russia needs to leave and the Crimeans and Ukrainian should be given time to think this through. From what I've read, Crimea doesn't even supply most of its electrical power or water. They need to think this through more thoroughly, right now too many inflamed passions.

Fern

 

[Pray To Jesus]

Vae victis.

 

[Theb]

Hitler and Nazi are such charged words and so associated with the holocaust that a meaningful comparison will probably never be made using either of them as an example. If you can't think of any other event in human history to compare something to then don't bother making a comparison. Because you're probably not trying to make a comparison, you're probably just trying to smear someone.

/2 cents.

 

[norseamd]

Hitler and Nazi are such charged words and so associated with the holocaust that a meaningful comparison will probably never be made using either of them as an example. If you can't think of any other event in human history to compare something to then don't bother making a comparison. Because you're probably not trying to make a comparison, you're probably just trying to smear someone.

qin dynasty and the mao dynasty are good comparisons

 

[Texashiker]

Instead of starting a new thread, I think this news article is related to the topic,

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26524056

The US secretary of state has rejected an offer of talks with President Vladimir Putin until Russia engages with US proposals on Ukraine's crisis.

Just as Britain and France refused to talk to Germany, so now the US is refusing to talk to Putin.

This is a close replay of World War II.

 

[dainthomas]

Instead of starting a new thread, I think this news article is related to the topic,

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26524056


Just as Britain and France refused to talk to Germany, so now the US is refusing to talk to Putin.

This is a close replay of World War II.

Not really accurate.

In a televised briefing with President Putin on Monday, Mr Lavrov said proposals made by Mr Kerry for a negotiated solution to the crisis were "not suitable" because they took "the situation created by the coup as a starting point", referring to the overthrow of Ukraine's pro-Russian President, Viktor Yanukovych.

Talks have to be based on reality. Yanukovych is no longer president of Ukraine (whether technically legal or not). There is no possible way for him to resume his office that would not result in civil war. What is there to talk about if Russia can't accept this new paradigm?

 

[Fern]

Instead of starting a new thread, I think this news article is related to the topic,

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26524056


Just as Britain and France refused to talk to Germany, so now the US is refusing to talk to Putin.

This is a close replay of World War II.

Kerry has refused until and unless Russia makes a concession. This is extremely normal in diplomatic relations.

I heard several former (or current) ambassadors discuss this. They felt Kerry's stance was necessary because at this point the timetable favors Russia. I.e., The Crimean referendum is set in action and voting is soon. All the Russians are doing is stalling for time. If Kerry took the 'bait' it would all be over before any diplomatic results could possibly happen.

I believe Kerry wants to start from the aspect (concession) that the Ukraine parliament is legitimate. Russia wants to start under the assumption that they are illegitimate and illegal. If one starts at Russia's assumption the Crimea will be long gone before you ever resolve the issue of the Ukraine parliament.

You're just seeing typical diplomatic workings (games).

The USA needs to keep the focus on the legitimacy of the Crimean parliament and referendum.

Fern

 

[Pray To Jesus]

Kerry has refused until and unless Russia makes a concession. This is extremely normal in diplomatic relations.

I heard several former (or current) ambassadors discuss this. They felt Kerry's stance was necessary because at this point the timetable favors Russia. I.e., The Crimean referendum is set in action and voting is soon. All the Russians are doing is stalling for time. If Kerry took the 'bait' it would all be over before any diplomatic results could possibly happen.

I believe Kerry wants to start from the aspect (concession) that the Ukraine parliament is legitimate. Russia wants to start under the assumption that they are illegitimate and illegal. If one starts at Russia's assumption the Crimea will be long gone before you ever resolve the issue of the Ukraine parliament.

You're just seeing typical diplomatic workings (games).

The USA needs to keep the focus on the legitimacy of the Crimean parliament and referendum.

Fern

Is the current Ukrainian government legitimate?

 

[Texashiker]

Kerry has refused until and unless Russia makes a concession. This is extremely normal in diplomatic relations.

I read your post and agree with your opinion.

However, the US has no business in the Ukraine, Crimea or Russian affairs. And as such, Kerry nor obama are in a position to make demands.

My opinion, and how this compares to world war II, is with Poland and the Polish Corridor (aka Danzig Corridor).

Germany lost that land after WW I, and they wanted it back. The rest of europe said too bad, so Hitler took Poland by force. If Poland had negotiated in good faith with Germany, chances are the Poland invasion would have never happened.

Crimea wishes to return to Russia just as people in the Danzig Corridor wished to return to Germany.

Are we going to see a replay of WW II? It seems that we are on the way to repeating the mistakes Europe made in the 1930s.

What is there to talk about if Russia can't accept this new paradigm?

The only thing to talk about is the US and Europe accepting the will of the people who live in Crimea.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

The only thing to talk about is the US and Europe accepting the will of the people who live in Crimea.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

 

[raildogg]

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Just a bunch of words written a long time ago. No real meaning.

"Safety" and "Happiness." Yeah sure, for who? The selected few?

 

[Texashiker]

"Safety" and "Happiness." Yeah sure, for who? The selected few?

You would deny a people the right to choose their own future?

Democracy at its core is a form of mob rules. How can the United States, a champion of democracy, not respect the will of a people?

 

[raildogg]

You would deny a people the right to choose their own future?

Democracy at its core is a form of mob rules. How can the United States, a champion of democracy, not respect the will of a people?

Choose their own future? You really believe that to be true? People are conditioned and programmed in every culture and society. They don't get to be free. These constitutions and other manmade laws just give people a sense of safety and comfort.

US, a champion of democracy? C'mon man.

 

[Fern]

Is the current Ukrainian government legitimate?

I think it is because my understanding is that is it basically the same members.

After the old prez was tossed some of the officials like Chairman (or whatever they call them) stepped done and were replaced in a vote by other members.

But, again, AFAIK it's the same parliament.

The Crimean parliament is much different from what I understand. Although I would like to see a list of both parliament members before and after to compare.

Fern

 

[IronWing]

Texashiker, your position wrt Crimea and Germany is, once again, to declare borders as they existed at one point in a very fluid history to be the "natural" state of things.

 

[Lepton87]

Texashiker do you really believe that Germany would not have invaded Poland had they gotten their old land back? That's naive. Does Lebensraum ring a bell? Arayan master race considered Slavic people to be Untermensch and they wanted almost all of polish people gone, the remaining 15% of the population was to be made Wehrbauer.

Just as the night rises against the day, the light and dark are in eternal conflict. So too, is the subhuman the greatest enemy of the dominant species on earth, mankind. The subhuman is a biological creature, crafted by nature, which has hands, legs, eyes and mouth, even the semblance of a brain. Nevertheless, this terrible creature is only a partial human being.

Although it has features similar to a human, the subhuman is lower on the spiritual and psychological scale than any animal. Inside of this creature lies wild and unrestrained passions: an incessant need to destroy, filled with the most primitive desires, chaos and coldhearted villainy.

A subhuman and nothing more!

Not all of those, who appear human are in fact so. Woe to him who forgets it!

Mulattos and Finn-Asian barbarians, Gipsy’s and black skin savages all make up this modern underworld of subhuman’s that is always headed by the appearance of the eternal Jew.[4]

Yeah, right. They would be very peaceful They considered slavic people just a hair above Jews.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

Putin is going to do whatever he wants and is not going to get much resistance from the west or anybody else. Why? Because Russia has real long range nuclear weapons and the ability to mobilize them. This is just another example of how M.A.D works i.e. if you have nuclear weapons and a large military that is reasonably equipped you can do whatever you want as long as you aren't messing around with another major power or a nation under their direct influence.

 

[Texashiker]

Texashiker do you really believe that Germany would not have invaded Poland had they gotten their old land back? That's naive.

I do not think it is naive.

After world war I Germany was forced to pay massive amounts of money in reparations, and Germany was carved up like a thanksgiving turkey.

Both of which angered the German people.

Honestly, I can not blame them. Instead of letting the wounds of WW I heal, salt was being rubbed in the cuts.

Russia is a rising world power. They have some of the largest untapped oil reserves and virgin timber in the world.

Just as Winston Churchill said Germany is getting too powerful and must be destroyed, so maybe wall street thinks Russia is getting too powerful. With its gas and oil reserves that Eastern Europe needs, Russia will be able to influence European policies in the coming decades.

Did you ever watch the movie Thunderdome with Mel Gibson? The guy who controlled the methane ran Thunderdome and not Tina Turner.

What do you think Europe is going to do when Russia says do this or we cut your lights off? Do you honestly think the United States is going to sit back and let Russia become a world leader?

To paraphrase Winston Churchill, Russia is becoming too powerful and must be destroyed.

Just as Germany was threatening British dominance in the 1930s, so Russia is threatening US dominance in Europe.

 

[Texashiker]

Looks like world war III may have been adverted, at least for now anyway.

Unlike Poland and France with Germany, Ukraine says it will not fight Russia for Crimea.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...e-says-will-not-fight-Russia-over-Crimea.html

Ukraine's acting President Oleksandr Turchynov said his heavily outnumbered army would never try to seize back the Black Sea peninsula, ahead of referendum

However, the plot thickens as Ukraine looks at further breakup,

The first meeting between the US president and Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk comes with Europe's largest nation in danger of breaking apart when the predominantly ethnic Russian region holds a Moscow-backed referendum Sunday on switching over to Kremlin rule.

If Poland and France would have gave back the land that rightfully belonged to Germany, perhaps WW II would have never happened.

 

[AViking]

Rightfully belonged?

 

[norseamd]

If Poland and France would have gave back the land that rightfully belonged to Germany, perhaps WW II would have never happened.

please do tell

the alsance and lorraine have been claimed by both germany and france for centuries