Hezbollah moves toward Lebanon government control

[Lemon law]

Oh Jesus Christ on a crutch with the Common Courtesy that Israel wants peace?

When Israel hides behind its mighty military and proves it does not want peace. It just wants more more and more, while alienating every ally it EVER HAD. Israel has already lost Turkey as an ally, its seemingly on the verge of losing Egypt, and as US Credibility all over the world is melting faster than snow flakes on a hot tin roof. Pardon me, if I am the messenger from reality, that Bozo Netanyuhu is playing the wrong song in terms of any viable Israeli future. And what do you do, champion the very idiot who will lead Israel to its doom.

Funny Common Courtesy, if Israel wants peace it has to do the thing its never done, Show the world its willing to make a single concession. Its all well and fine for you to bitch about a freely elected hostile Hamas, but when Israel will not make a single concession to a renounce violence Fatah, you have no idea how hollow your argument is.

 

[bfdd]

LL, do you acknowledge that if Israel so wished Palestine and the Palestinians wouldn't exist? That the Israelis, if they chose to be so brutal, could waltz into Gaza and the West Bank and annihilate everyone and everything there? That they could have leveled Lebanon if they so wished? The fact is they could have if they wanted to and there isn't a fucking thing anyone could have done to stop them. Sure after the fact the world would be pissed and act, but not until after the Israeli's killed every single Palestinian and wiped them off the face of the Earth.

If you acknowledge that Israel has that kind of power, then it should be obvious by the fact they haven't used it that they are showing restraint because if Israel was lobbing rockets into Iran like the Palestinians were into Israel I highly doubt the Iranians would twiddle their thumbs and try to organize peace talks.

 

[Lemon law]

Of course, bfdd, I freely acknowledge that Israel can play the Nazi Germany card and start building those gas ovens to efficiently have a final solution to the Palestinian problem.

Can we number you, dfdd as a proponent of such a plan. But wait, ole Uncle Adolph had such a plan up and running for a whole 12 years before the larger world stopped him. We therefore have to love the new Israeli plan, that tosses millions of people into concentration camps, but stops short of executing them, but still deprives them of all human rights for 62 years and counting.

Or we can talk about the the similar Japanese plan the dominate Asia, that was working like a swiss watch for even longer especially after Pearl Harbor. But when perhaps no more than 1000 Japanese idiots decided to attack Pearl Harbor, the die was cast for all the Japanese people, there was no going back, and in the end Japan was almost bombed back to the stone age. Fortnightly for the Japanese, wiser US leadership decided to let a defeated nation up gently. And now Japan is a US ally.

Israel may be in exactly the same position as the final Bozo Netanyuhu die is cast, will Israel have the option of being let up gently or lose it all? Or must they be bombed into submission first.

 

[bfdd]

How the fuck do you get that from what I said? It's very simple. If people want you dead and are actively trying to kill you, the best response is to just kill them and everyone like them in kind. Problem solved. Israel doesn't do this, yet they are constantly provoked to. That's all the Palestinian officials have ever wanted btw. They antagonize and harrass Israel to get Israel to lose their cool and just start indiscriminately killing Palestinian civilians. You know why? Cause then they win. These people don't want peace talks, if they did there would be peace. Israel has been overly patient with these morons who have NOTHING to offer the rest of the world. Palestine is a net drain on the world as a whole.

I'm not defending any action they have taken, nor am I saying they are in the right, but to ignore the amount of restraint Israel has shown since their inception is ignorance.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Show the world its willing to make a single concession.

10 months settlement freeze.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Jediyoda : i assume although you do not have your nationality written out like me you are related with Israel. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Israel is still playing on the paranoia that it is going to be destroyed by its neighbours, although that is a far possibility in terms of military and economy. Even at the slightest chance of a military defeat the sixth fleet will be on the shores of israel for a full backup, we all know that, so why is the israel politics still insistant on constant border disputes, expansion into more palestine land ? The answer is as long as its neighbours are weak and in turmoil israel can continue to reach a predefined border, this is a self feeding loop where the radicals never stop hating each other and the israel can continue playing the always attacked nation. Anyway as Lemon law has pointed out, the region is on the verge of some fundemental changes, the cold war has ended and this region is the last to feel this change. The moderates will win and reign. I sincerely wish israel a bright and peaceful future with an independent palestine at its borders, of course politically a lot has to change in israel, once that is done the radicals like hizbullah will be history.


Werepossum : i can understand your deduction abput what is happening in Turkey from what you read and discuss with other Turks, even here people are having a hard timeto grasp what is really happening. What is NOT happening is the takeover of radical Islam, you can trust my word on it

the problem with israel is its size. israel is TINY!

it would not be very hard for the entire country to be wiped away.

that is why israel is cautious. the 6th fleet, as you put it, would not be able to come in time before the war becomes too deadly.

Everyone knows israel has nukes. I am glad they do. that is the only way they stay strong and no full blown war is put at them. its the same reason no one fucks with the USA. Nuclear deterrence.

 

[Lemon law]

Sorry bfdd, I will point out, but to ignore the total lack any of any restraint Israel has shown since their inception is ignorance. "

I can envision a better win win situation where an Israel and a Palestinian State can coexist, sadly idiots can only envision a mid-east where only Israel exists.

I mean I mean how delusional is that, that somehow a mere 5.6 million people will and can base a future on perpetually somehow pissing off at least 275 million of their neighbors and still expect to have any long range future.

Wake up and smell the coffee bfdd, the Israeli future is eroding at a greatly accelerated pace in the last decade. The larger world of six billion people is far more concerned with mid-east stability than its concerned with Israeli greed and stupidity.

As for Israeli peeing about the damn injustice of it all, Hamas is still standing and Hezbollah has proved to be the Lebanese preference despite the best Israeli efforts.
Worse yet, the USA's failure to rein in Israeli extremism, is costing the USA all mid-east credibility. As for the larger world, Israel does not have a single ally left other than the USA, as Israel trades US defense secrets to the Chinese.

 

[JEDIYoda]

As for the larger world, Israel does not have a single ally left other than the USA, as Israel trades US defense secrets to the Chinese.

Pretty bold statement!! You should apologize for your ignorance!!

 

[bfdd]

Sorry bfdd, I will point out, but to ignore the total lack any of any restraint Israel has shown since their inception is ignorance. "

I can envision a better win win situation where an Israel and a Palestinian State can coexist, sadly idiots can only envision a mid-east where only Israel exists.

I mean I mean how delusional is that, that somehow a mere 5.6 million people will and can base a future on perpetually somehow pissing off at least 275 million of their neighbors and still expect to have any long range future.

Wake up and smell the coffee bfdd, the Israeli future is eroding at a greatly accelerated pace in the last decade. The larger world of six billion people is far more concerned with mid-east stability than its concerned with Israeli greed and stupidity.

As for Israeli peeing about the damn injustice of it all, Hamas is still standing and Hezbollah has proved to be the Lebanese preference despite the best Israeli efforts.
Worse yet, the USA's failure to rein in Israeli extremism, is costing the USA all mid-east credibility. As for the larger world, Israel does not have a single ally left other than the USA, as Israel trades US defense secrets to the Chinese.

The only thing eroding is the Palestinians quality of life as they continue on their path to their own demise. I'm no Israel fan clubber, I just cannot stand the ignorance of you and the other Palestinian pole polishers.

 

[Freshgeardude]

As for the larger world, Israel does not have a single ally left other than the USA, as Israel trades US defense secrets to the Chinese.

yea cause they dont have training with the greek, or dont export to anywhere besides the USA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel

In September 2010, Israel joined the OECD,[5] which praised Israel's scientific and technological progress and described it as having "produced outstanding outcomes on a world scale."[6] Israel has also signed free trade agreements with the European Union, the United States, the European Free Trade Association, Turkey, Mexico, Canada, Jordan, Egypt, and on 18 December 2007, became the first non-Latin American country to sign a free trade agreement with the Mercosur trade bloc.

and this is 5 years ago

 

[poohbear]

the problem with israel is its size. israel is TINY!

it would not be very hard for the entire country to be wiped away.

actually it would be very hard to wipe it out. This is the 21st century, numbers dont matter, military technology and air power does. Israel is a superpower in the region.

 

[Zorkorist]

Numbers do matter, and Israel can be overtaken in minutes by it's surrounding countries.

Wiped out, agan, as was David's Temple.

-John

 

[Karl Agathon]

Numbers do matter, and Israel can be overtaken in minutes by it's surrounding countries.

Wiped out, agan, as was David's Temple.

-John

if that happens, expect a "Samson Option" event that will most likely make a great deal of the middle east uninhabitable for hundreds if not thousands of years. The isrealis wont go quietly into the night and be lambs to the slaughter as some here seem to think. The difference between the time of David's Temple and now is that israel is equiped with nuclear weapons. A pretty good equalizer to fight modern day Romans if you ask me. Let me clarify that when I said "fight" I didnt mean classical warfare. im talking about a doomsday type scenario.

 

[Karl Agathon]

the problem with israel is its size. israel is TINY!

it would not be very hard for the entire country to be wiped away.

that is why israel is cautious. the 6th fleet, as you put it, would not be able to come in time before the war becomes too deadly.

Everyone knows israel has nukes. I am glad they do. that is the only way they stay strong and no full blown war is put at them. its the same reason no one fucks with the USA. Nuclear deterrence.

its to bad israel doesnt have an SSBN or two. Although from what I understand, they do have a few dolphin class subs. Not sure if those kinds of subs can be equiped with SLBM nukes though. Perhaps someone with knowledge on the subject here can tell us.

 

[Zorkorist]

Because some Government gave the Israelis a land, and some Government supported them with weapons against the "barborous Arabs," makes the Israelies this great people, that stands up to oppression?

Or is it their God that will save them, or blow up the Peninsula?

-John

 

[JEDIYoda]

Because some Government gave the Israelis a land, and some Government supported them with weapons against the "barborous Arabs," makes the Israelies this great people, that stands up to oppression?

Or is it their God that will save them, or blow up the Peninsula?

You really don`t know what you are talking about do you?
Israel bought all it`s weapons and continues to do so...just so we are clear --
Originally in 1948 -- Jewish Attempts to Buy Arms and Czech Approval
The major Arab armies who invaded the newly born Jewish state were British led, equipped, trained and supplied. The Syrian army was French-equipped and had taken orders from the Vichy government in resisting the British led invasion of the country assisted by Australian troops, Free French units and Palestinian-Jewish volunteer forces in 1941. In their War of Independence, the Israelis depended on smuggled weapons from the West and Soviet and Czech weapons.

The leaders of the Yishuv (Jewish community in Palestine), already in the summer of 1947, intended to purchase arms and sent Dr. Moshe Sneh (the Chief of the European Branch of the Jewish Agency, a leading member of the centrist General Zionist Party who later moved far leftward and became head of the Israeli Communist Party) to Prague in order to improve Jewish defenses. He was surprised by the sympathy towards Zionism and by the interest in arms export on the side of the Czech Government. Sneh met with the Deputy Foreign Minister Vladimir Clementis, who succeeded the non-Communist and definitely pro-Zionist Jan Masaryk. Sneh and Clementis discussed the possibility of Czech arms provisions for the Jewish state and the Czechs gave their approval,

In January, 1948 Jewish representatives were sent by Ben-Gurion to meet with General Ludvik Svoboda, the Minister of National Defense, and sign the first contract for Czech military aid. Four transport routes were used to Palestine all via Communist countries; a) the Northern route: via Poland and the Baltic Sea, b) the Southern route: via Hungary, Yugoslavia and the Adriatic Sea, c) via Hungary, Romania and the Black Sea, d) by air, via Yugoslavia to Palestine.

At first, a "Skymaster" plane chartered from the U.S. to help in ferrying weapons to Palestine from Europe was forced by the FBI to return to the USA. By the end of May the Israeli Army (IDF) had absorbed about 20,000 Czech rifles, 2,800 machine-guns and over 27 million rounds of ammunition. Two weeks later an additional 10,000 rifles, 1,800 machine-guns and 20 million rounds of ammunition arrived. One Czech-Israeli project that alarmed the Western intelligence was the, so called, Czech Brigade, a unit composed of Jewish veterans of "Free Czechoslovakia", which fought with the British Army during WWII. The Brigade began training in August 1948 at four bases in Czechoslovakia.

Czech assistance to Israel's military strength comprised a) small arms, b) 84 airplanes –– the outdated Czech built Avia S.199s, Spitfires and Messerschmidts that played a major role in the demoralization of enemy troops; c) military training and technical maintenance. On January 7, 1949, the Israeli air-force, consisting of several Spitfires and Czech built Messerschmidt Bf-109 fighters (transferred secretly from Czech bases to Israel), shot down five British-piloted Spitfires flying for the Egyptian air-force over the Sinai desert causing a major diplomatic embarrassment for the British government. According to British reports, based on informants within the Czech Government, the total Czech dollar income from export of arms and military services to the Middle East in 1948 was over $28 million, and Israel received 85% of this amount. As late as 1951, Czech Spitfires continued to arrive in Israel by ship from the Polish port of Gydiniya-Gdansk (Danzig). Since May, 2005 the Military Museum in Prague has displayed a special exhibition on the Czech aid to Israel in 1948.

In contrast, the American State Department declared an embargo on all weapons and war material to both Jews and Arabs in Palestine,

 

[EagleKeeper]

Because some Government gave the Israelis a land, and some Government supported them with weapons against the "barborous Arabs," makes the Israelies this great people, that stands up to oppression?

Or is it their God that will save them, or blow up the Peninsula?

-John

The same land that Israel was given was also given in much larger amounts to the Arabs.

Problem was the Arabs and Arab/Palestinians were greedy and then wanted it all.

Major miscalculation and they still have not recovered their egos from all the following misteps.

Israel bought or made their weapons. The majority came not from yo0ur "governments"

Your "Governments" did not even try to have any support of Israel until the conflict was completely finalized AFTER the '67 war.

And your "Governments" are the one that allowed the problems to perculate by protecting the Arab armies/forces from being properly demolished in every conflict from '48 to '08. That is 60 years of protection that is anti-Israel, not pro-Israel.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Show the world its willing to make a single concession.

10 months settlement freeze.

This apparently does not count.

We now know that Abbas had no authority to deal with Israel.

So, anything has to be done with Hamas.
but Hamas went on the record during the Fatah talks stating that there would be no peace with Israel.

So what concessions need to be offered? Israel to march its population into the sea to meet with Hamas demands?

LL Authoritive statements/predictions

• The Palestinian Papers has blown all your rose colored glasses to shreds w/ respect to any credibility you have on what Israel must do and what Fatah can/should/will do.
  
• Hamas own statements and actions blow up any credibility on that end.
  
• The current Egyptian government has not opened its borders to Gaza as predicted.
  
• The embargo has not been lifted by Israel, just tweaked a little for luxury goods.
  
• No additional blockade runners have come through.
  
• Turkey has not sent any naval vessels to pummel Israel or protect ships.
• As an ally in the ME, what is Turkeys critical role - they have no influence with the EU. Allowing the militants to prep/board indicated complicity - no loss to Israel w/ respect to Turkey - showed they were not even neutral

What your Israeli clubbers have predicted has come true in a quick/effective/accurate fashion.
all of your selective history cherrypicking and such to justify has proven a failure.

Maybe you should sign up as a consultant with the US State Department. They could use your demonstratable skills in planning foriegn policy.




So back to the original premise of the thread - what will Hezbollah do w/ respect to Lebanon.

I expect that they will try to turn it into a complete Iranian proxy ala Syria.

Once they finish absorbing the government, the following 3-4 years will demonstrate what they will be. Option A or Option B

• A) Use it to legitimately serve as a base to improve Lebanon in its own image or
• B) To launch attacks against Israel using the Lebanese military as an anchor point.

 

[Lemon law]

Right now, Israel can only watch events enfold in Lebanon. Since Hezbollah is not pegging Rockets into Israel at this time, and is unlikely to in future, Israel has no real provocation to invade Lebanon.

As for Hezbollah, it has democratically eliminated the old PM, by reaching out and forming alliances with the Christians and other elements to form a broad based Coalition. As once again, US, Israeli, and French interests seeking to eliminate Hezbollah instead have backfired and made Hezbollah even stronger.

I have seen an new plan being floated to drive a wedge between Syria and Hezbollah by an Israeli deal to bribe Syria with a deal to give back the Golan heights in exchange for a Syrian agreement to cut Hezbollah supply routes.

As for Hezbollah, I doubt they want to lead Lebanon, they are more interested in slowly increasing their over all popularity. A popularity that stood at a low of 25% before Israel invaded Lebanon in 2006, and then soared to 75% when the last Israeli tanks left Lebanese soil.

The other plan being floated is cutting US aid to the Lebanese military, which has to again increase Lebanese reliance on Hezbollah for national defense.

At the same time Israel has to look South and watch the Murbarak government collapse.

What is that old Chinese curse, may you live in changing times.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Let Egypt open the flood gates to Gaza!

Will there be the exodus into Egypt and will they be welcome?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Right now, Israel can only watch events enfold in Lebanon. Since Hezbollah is not pegging Rockets into Israel at this time, and is unlikely to in future, Israel has no real provocation to invade Lebanon. --- no but they will if provoked -- that`s a fact!!

As for Hezbollah, it has democratically eliminated the old PM, by reaching out and forming alliances with the Christians and other elements to form a broad based Coalition. As once again, US, Israeli, and French interests seeking to eliminate Hezbollah instead have backfired and made Hezbollah even stronger. -- hezzbollah has never been strong. As far as the world is concerned Hezzbolah ,who??

I have seen an new plan being floated to drive a wedge between Syria and Hezbollah by an Israeli deal to bribe Syria with a deal to give back the Golan heights in exchange for a Syrian agreement to cut Hezbollah supply routes. -- you dreaming again....no links just more of your inaccurate heresay.....

As for Hezbollah, I doubt they want to lead Lebanon, they are more interested in slowly increasing their over all popularity. A popularity that stood at a low of 25% before Israel invaded Lebanon in 2006, and then soared to 75% when the last Israeli tanks left Lebanese soil. --- again other than to the Lebanese people it goes like this -- Hezzbolah who??

The other plan being floated is cutting US aid to the Lebanese military, which has to again increase Lebanese reliance on Hezbollah for national defense. -- thats not a plan being floated at all.....it will for sure happen if the wrong people take control of the Lebanese government!

At the same time Israel has to look South and watch the Murbarak government collapse.
That`s interesting that you would actually think that Egypt and Israel were actually allies. From all I have read and know first hand is they were only allies of sorts on paper.
You see Lemon law Egypt had it`s ass handed to it in a handbasket the last time it went to war with Israel. Unlike Hamas and Hezzbollah, Egypt decided it was more prudent to hate Israel but not fight Israel and instead partake in a generous amount of US Aid in return.

If Egypt`s present government falls to the more radical elements and they decide to fight Israel once again.....

What is that old Chinese curse, may you live in changing times.

Actually bfdd said it best -- LL, do you acknowledge that if Israel so wished Palestine and the Palestinians wouldn't exist? That the Israelis, if they chose to be so brutal, could waltz into Gaza and the West Bank and annihilate everyone and everything there? That they could have leveled Lebanon if they so wished? The fact is they could have if they wanted to and there isn't a fucking thing anyone could have done to stop them. Sure after the fact the world would be pissed and act, but not until after the Israeli's killed every single Palestinian and wiped them off the face of the Earth.

If you acknowledge that Israel has that kind of power, then it should be obvious by the fact they haven't used it that they are showing restraint because if Israel was lobbing rockets into Iran like the Palestinians were into Israel I highly doubt the Iranians would twiddle their thumbs and try to organize peace talks.

As ole Ben Grimm use to say -- nuff said!!

 

[Lemon law]

It just goes to show this entire forum how delusional JEDIY has become as he says, "Actually bfdd said it best -- LL, do you acknowledge that if Israel so wished Palestine and the Palestinians wouldn't exist? That the Israelis, if they chose to be so brutal, could waltz into Gaza and the West Bank and annihilate everyone and everything there?"

Which is exactly what Hitler did to the Jews and other ethnic groups. As the world recoiled in horror when the news finally got out late in WW2.

And partly as compensation Israel was made into a place for homeless Jewish refugees to relocate.

And Now you think the world would just sit idly by as Israeli committed a total genocide.
of millions of people just because they don't like the democratic elected government of Hamas. What you advocate is called an international war crime by any definition. It would also qualify for an international war crime under the definition of collective punishment, because Israel may get a few guilty terrorists but would kill innocent men women and children as young as one day old.

You Jediy seriously need to seek Psychiatric help because you lost all touch with reality.

 

[Oric]

JediYoda : what country are you from ?

 

[EagleKeeper]

It just goes to show this entire forum how delusional JEDIY has become as he says, "Actually bfdd said it best -- LL, do you acknowledge that if Israel so wished Palestine and the Palestinians wouldn't exist? That the Israelis, if they chose to be so brutal, could waltz into Gaza and the West Bank and annihilate everyone and everything there?"

Which is exactly what Hitler did to the Jews and other ethnic groups. As the world recoiled in horror when the news finally got out late in WW2.

And partly as compensation Israel was made into a place for homeless Jewish refugees to relocate.

And Now you think the world would just sit idly by as Israeli committed a total genocide.
of millions of people just because they don't like the democratic elected government of Hamas. What you advocate is called an international war crime by any definition. It would also qualify for an international war crime under the definition of collective punishment, because Israel may get a few guilty terrorists but would kill innocent men women and children as young as one day old.

You Jediy seriously need to seek Psychiatric help because you lost all touch with reality.

Israel does not need to commit genocide.

Scorched earth will work just as well.

They will not do it because of the exact reason you pointed out - history.
However, the Hamas is not bound by such history.

Actions by the Palestinians and/or lack of them will not stop Israel from continuing to absorb territory on the West Bank.

The Palestinians have their destiny in their hands - but seem to be unable to do anything with it by choice.

Hezbollah at least has tried to work and setup a government. Now time will tell how well they succeed.

 

[JEDIYoda]

It just goes to show this entire forum how delusional JEDIY has become as he says, "Actually bfdd said it best -- LL, do you acknowledge that if Israel so wished Palestine and the Palestinians wouldn't exist? That the Israelis, if they chose to be so brutal, could waltz into Gaza and the West Bank and annihilate everyone and everything there?" -- no it is you who are going over the deep end!! What you keep denying is that Israel has been showing great restraint in dealing with it`s aggressors!!


Which is exactly what Hitler did to the Jews and other ethnic groups. As the world recoiled in horror when the news finally got out late in WW2. -- Only you in your warped way of thinking could think that myself or bfdd would advocate something like that!! yet you refuse to admit or even understand that Israel has been held back almost every time it has been attacked!! Israel knows full well that it must show restraint because of past history including what the Nazi`s tried to do@!! Yet was is war and the Jews did not attack the nazi`s first......there is a real huge difference@!!

Lemon law when you get your butt in a bind you always pull out the Nazi card hoping that it means something.

What the Nazi card means in your case is you have no grasp on the difference between being attacked and a group of people trying purposely to totally anihilate a whole race of people!!


And partly as compensation Israel was made into a place for homeless Jewish refugees to relocate.

And Now you think the world would just sit idly by as Israeli committed a total genocide. --whats funny is nobody said it would happen. It will not happen. But you refuse to admit that israel has been holding back when it deals with agresssion! Those mushroom really have you nervous and antsy huh??
of millions of people just because they don't like the democratic elected government of Hamas. -- again you claim Hamas is a democratically elected government yet your faux outrage at bfdd and myself for suggesting that Israel is holding back is admirable.....yet Hamas as the representative of the Palestinian people states in their own charter exactly what the Nazi`s tried to do to the Jews! So you approve of Hamas wanting to exterminate the Jews, yet your fake outrage at what the Nazi`s did to the Jews is admirable.


What you advocate is called an international war crime by any definition. -- Again nobody advocated anything...the fact remains the Israeli`s are showing great restraint .
It would also qualify for an international war crime under the definition of collective punishment, because Israel may get a few guilty terrorists but would kill innocent men women and children as young as one day old. -- dude in a war there will be civilain casualties and those civilain casualties are not considered a war crime, unless they round up all the civilians like the German`s did....... Again nice try but you know nothing about International law!

You Jediy seriously need to seek Psychiatric help because you lost all touch with reality.

Actually you have lost the ability comprehend...first you take out of context what bfdd posted and then you launch into your nazi german faux outrage crapola!!

Perhaps you got a bad batch of shrooms...