Hey Russ...you take care of yourself

GL

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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A poor old couple thought their house was being home-invaded. Turned out the police were raiding their house thinking it was a drug house. It was not - they had bad info from a drug informant. The wife asked her husband to go grab his shotgun because they feared there were bad guys invading...the police say he fired first, and they shot back three times. A little fishy to me. Apparently, the wife insists the police didn't identify themselves...which is why she told her husband to go grab for the gun. It could just be a confused old lady. On the other hand, the two cops involved in the incident are 24 years old and 25 years old respectively....rookies I suppose.

So Russ, make sure you get 'em first if somebody breaks into your house;) You don't wanna end up hurt or dead because the police trusted some drug informant.

Oops, forgot the link to the article at CNN

-GL
 

DABANSHEE

Banned
Dec 8, 1999
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As I mentioned to Ulfwald, in an earlier post, there are hundreds of Americans who are dead, because they were paranoid & kept a gun by the bed, & the cops were doing a 'no knock' & stormed their house (by mistake or otherwise ***), & the resident thought that an intruder was about so then picked up his/her gun & got blasted by some cop with an Ithica Pump.

***look at that LA millionaire who the police did a 'no knock' on in the hope of finding some pot, just so they'd have a excuse to forfeiture his house, afterwards the Justice dept found paperwork to prove that the cops were just out to get their forfeiture bonus, but it didn't bring that bloke back to life
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
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Thats true dabanshee but the bigger picture here is that the cops shouldn't be doing no-knocks unless they know what the F**k they're doing. How about better info?

I'm sure less good citizens have died from a gun-fight on a blotched no-knock than good citizens who have lived because of having a gun during a home invasion.
 

Tominator

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,559
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DABANSHEE
I can put up with your meddeling in US affairs even when it's totally obvious you don't know what you're talking about, but ...

<< there are hundreds of Americans who are dead, because they were paranoid &amp; kept a gun by the bed, &amp; the cops were doing a 'no knock' &amp; stormed their house (by mistake or otherwise ***), &amp; the resident thought that an intruder was about so then picked up his/her gun &amp; got blasted by some cop with an Ithica Pump. >>

....That is a total fabrication. You know it is false and that makes it a lie.
 

DABANSHEE

Banned
Dec 8, 1999
2,355
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Hey Tom, its happen here in Sydney 3 times, just over the last 15 years. Now when you take into account the US has a population more than 70 times greater than Sydney's, &amp; the fact that 'no knock' raids are hell of a lot more common in the US than Australia &amp; the fact that police in Australia useally don't even bother to get their guns out during most drugs raids, plus gun ownership rates are a hell of a lot higher in the US than Australia, it wouldn't surprise me if there's been more than a 1000 such cases in the US over thast 20 years.

Just log onto the DRCNet website &amp; follow the links on botched drug raids &amp; police forfeiture scams.
 

Bakwetu

Golden Member
Oct 10, 1999
1,681
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The most imminent danger for Russ is his smoking habit, not a police raid ;)
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Let's see what would happen if guns were outlawed. Hmm, it looks like Australia is trying that.

&quot;The Australian Justice Ministry crowed that crimes would plummet after the new gun laws were in place, but the opposite has happened. According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics publication Recorded Crime, armed robbery has shot up a whopping 44 percent, unarmed robbery has increased by 21 percent and the murder rate is up 3.2 percent?all between 1996 and 1997 when the new gun laws were established. Australian Shooters Journal reports that in the state of Victoria (which includes Melbourne) the number of homicides committed with a firearm rose by nearly 300 percent. The number of murders committed in Western Australia is up 33 percent. Australia has not become the &quot;safer place&quot; Prime Minister Howard promised when he confiscated his citizens? guns.
Disturbingly, there has also been a trend of violent home invasions by armed criminals even when the house is occupied. Apparently there is no longer much fear among robbers of running into an armed and ready home-owner.&quot;
Austrialia
 

GL

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,547
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As much as I feel that guns are an unnecessary evil, stats in Canada point to no effect on crime when gun control legislation was introduced.

In fact, the only thing that gun control legislation seemed to have an effect on, was suicide deaths by self inflicted gunshot wounds. Those went down 77%. Of course, I'm sure many potential suicide victims just went a different route towards their demise, so the legislation probably had a minimal effect on actual suicide deaths.

-GL
 

DABANSHEE

Banned
Dec 8, 1999
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Actually Etech, if you bothered to check those figures with anyone from Australia you'll realise those figures were made up, because those 'over-the-top' knee jerk gun laws have made buggerall difference to firearm incidents here.

Actually there's been a slight downward trend in every Australia state (per-capita), as far as violent crimes are concerned, over the last few years. All local govts do in Australia are things like collecting the garbage &amp; maintain park, consequently law efforcment is a state issue.

Anyway crime rates are so low here its virtually impossible to work out trends like this in the short term, just by going by a chart on the 'Australian Sporting Shooters association' that's reportedly using ABS figures there's only about 80 firearm deaths a year in Australia, which means you only need one armed holdup go wrong &amp; it could mean a %5 change in the annual figures. That page you link said murders had gone up 33% in Western Australia, well if you were Australian you'd know not to take a statistic like that seriously unless it was done over a 20 year period because virtually no one lives in Western Australia, so a 33% increase could mean there was just one extra murder in WA than there was in the year before. Also it could just mean that a new Crown Prosecuter has taken office, &amp; bumbed up a couple of the drunken manslaughters that occurr in the Aboriginal encampments to murder charges. That page you linked mentioned homicides in Victoria, but of course failed to mention there's been a bikie war in Victoria (over the amphetimines trade) &amp; that increase in Victoria is almost wholly due to the bikie war.

You have to remember Australia is about the most urbanised country in the world with with about 95% of the population living in the 3 mega-cities of Melbourne/Geelong, Sydney/Necastle/Wollengong &amp; Brisbane/GoldCoast/Towoomba, consequently buggerall (as in less than 1%) people in Australia have ever owned firearms, hence any new gunlaws like that are bound to have virtually no effect on crime statistics eitherway, except maybe over a very long period.

Now, as far as I'm concerned, that gun 'buy back' scheme was a huge waste of tax payers money which has had no effect (positive or negative) on crime rates in Australia. You have to remember the legislation was only in regards to rifles &amp; shotties, handguns have been illegal in Audstralia since WWI, so any thoughts about criminals being afraid to act before the legislation &amp; not being afraid to act since the ligislation is purelly fanciful. Now it may have have along term negative effect on firearm incidents (accidents &amp; compulsive/impulsive acts), by the simple fact there are less firearms lying arround, but you'll have to get back to me in 20 years time, because it would be simple conjecture, otherwise. Even though I'm cynical about mental health stuff, I still feel that if they had spent that money on mental health funding it would have more of a positive effect on violent crime that simply wasting millions on buying then smelting guns.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Actually Etech, if you bothered to check those figures with anyone from Australia

From the article.
&quot;According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics publication&quot;

I am sorry, I just assumed that the Australian Bureau of Statistics publication was from Australia or does Australia have another country compile their statistics for them?


&quot;As I mentioned to Ulfwald, in an earlier post, there are hundreds of Americans who are dead, because they were paranoid &amp; kept a gun by the
bed, &amp; the cops were doing a 'no knock' &amp; stormed their house (by mistake or otherwise ***), &amp; the resident thought that an intruder was about so then picked up his/her gun &amp; got blasted by some cop with an Ithica Pump. &quot;

So where did you get your numbers and stories from?

 

DABANSHEE

Banned
Dec 8, 1999
2,355
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Ah, Etech, just as I could make up statistics &amp; say they were from the New York Times, so could that website make up statistics &amp; say they were from the ABS.

I can assure you those new gun laws have made absolutelly no effect on crimes rates in Australia, &amp; were a complete waste of money, but that's they only effect the've had on the place.

BTW, have you noticed that they quote the 'Australian Justice Ministry' when in actually fact there is no such thing.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
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DABANSHEE
Ah, Etech, just as I could make up statistics &amp; say they were from the New York Times, so could that website make up statistics &amp; say they were from the ABS.

Let me get this correct, are you saying that the author of the article is lying?

J.D. Deming, a third-generation Nevadan, is a former press aide to Senator John McCain (R-AZ) and served in the Bush Administration at the U.S. Agency for International Development in Washington and Africa.
 

zippy

Diamond Member
Nov 10, 1999
9,998
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Are these cops that stupid?! They should be fired IMMEDIATELY! You ALWAYS have to identify yourselves, even if you have a warrant!

 

DABANSHEE

Banned
Dec 8, 1999
2,355
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So he's a press secretary for a politician that makes him a sort of combined journo/polie which makes him twice as like to lie as would an ordinary politician or journalist.

Remember Politicians &amp; Journalists are classified with Lawyers &amp; bureaucrats as amongst the lowest form of life.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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DABANSHEE
The only person I have seen that has not checked his facts today is you.

Actually Etech, if you bothered to check those figures with anyone from Australia you'll realise those figures were made up, because those 'over-the-top' knee jerk gun laws have made buggerall difference to firearm incidents here.

From the article.
&quot;According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics publication&quot;

Then you say he is just making them up. Doubtful but before you call someone a liar, don't you think you shoud check for yourself or is this the way you discuss a question?

 

Russ

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
21,093
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Etech,

You notice how any sources DaBoob uses are facts, and any you use are &quot;made up&quot;? You also notice how he never backs up the assertion, but instead points to isolated examples of problems in our system, and completely ignores the disasterous consequences of the gun-grabbing in his own country?

Probably best just to ignore him, since we can't seat him at the children's table to get him away from the adults.

Russ, NCNE