Hey! Lets have a religious debate!

chazmotaz

Junior Member
Apr 20, 2004
10
0
0


What good is an off topic fourm ona computer sitewithout a good old fashioneda religious debate? Now, i've noticed that 2 of you are christians, because i've read your signatures and noticed you love Jesus very much, and I, an atheist, can respect that. Also, if you feel like keeping the debate alive, please, dont flame, I cant stand it when people jump into debates with "F U MAN< LOLOLOL" Let's keep this sophistocated.
Also, please no real disrespect of religions, don't say crap like "jesus was a dorkus malorkus", or "atheists will rot in hell" we're here to point and counterpoint, not just point.

Now then, I shall bring up my first point in this glorious debate of the divine.

I feel that people believe in god because they want to, they want a divine force in their lives because at heart all humans wish to take orders, there is always someone better. We want to see our dearly deceased after we die, so we pathologically believe in the dietys that our ancestors create, we want to be rewarded after a life of toil.

Anyone disagree? Eh? Express your beliefs, and we shall debate them out like a propergentlemenly boxing match.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
0
Originally posted by: chazmotaz
Express your beliefs, and we shall debate them out like a proper gentlemenly boxing match. </P>
You are new here, right?

 

Red

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2002
3,704
0
0
Yes I believe in God. I can't/won't allow myself to think about waking up every morning and experiencing all of the wonderful things in this world and blame it on a scientific reaction of amino acids in a perfect environment.

Also, when I try to think of the Big Bang Theory, if it is true, why did it happen? I must think that some being started all of this, and he is still around.

And yes, I also believe Jesus was the Son of God.
 

jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
9
81
hi, you are all a figment of my imagination. if i didn't want you to exist then you would not be here.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
Originally posted by: SmoochyTX
Does P&amp;N ring a bell?

well to be fair, a newcomer wouldn't necessarily realize that "politics and news" is where religion goes....

and yea i think it all boils down to psychology (religion, that is)
 

Yax

Platinum Member
Feb 11, 2003
2,866
0
0
In my religion, God exists too (God was incorporated into our religion as the lord of the skies or the world above). But, besides that, if you believe, then there are family spirits and bad spirits. Bad spirits will try to take your soul. Sometimes family spirits will do the same.

Your only defense is the mighty shaman. He/she can go to the spirit world and retrieve your soul if it is captured. You know its captured when you are sick and no medicine can cure you. The shaman will need a sacrificial animal to exchange for your soul. A pig, cow or chicken. Sometimes a dog or goat too.

If you have a newborn, you will need to call his/her soul to come into his/her body so that he/she doesn't get sick. Also, you will need to get your family spirits to accept him/her.

If you name your children with good names, evil spirits may try to take them away. Then they'd get sick and die. So never compliment your children or say they're beautiful nor give them good names. If people come visit they'd have to look at your baby and say "Ewe, she's so ugly and stupid looking" etc. If they compliment your child, they'd have to pay for a party to apease your spirits and pay for a shaman to come and rename your child so the evil spirits will think he or she's not the same child and won't try to take him or her away.

Oh, you can't give birth in anyone else's home except yours. That will offend their family spirits and you'd have to throw them a party to apease them. Complete with shaman to call them up and ask for their forgiveness for you.

For his work, the shaman will get a large portion of meat and other gifts from the party that requests his or her service. Good shamans' never go hungry.

What does this religion sound like? Is there an english name for this religion?
 

chazmotaz

Junior Member
Apr 20, 2004
10
0
0
Originally posted by: Red
Yes I believe in God. I can't/won't allow myself to think about waking up every morning and experiencing all of the wonderful things in this world and blame it on a scientific reaction of amino acids in a perfect environment. Also, when I try to think of the Big Bang Theory, if it is true, why did it happen? I must think that some being started all of this, and he is still around. And yes, I also believe Jesus was the Son of God.

Yes indeed, a very common argument to be seen in religious debates! Also a very hard one to counter, due to the inevitable "but where did that come from", well, i will try and put the counterment in the best way i can conjure with my limited rescources (and my laziness to go get them)

See my friend,before we tackle your argument we must build up to thepoint.Let uscompose our minds in this respect: how big is the universe?
Well, the theory of the universe is simply a theory, we must understand that there are no boundries in space, lest we forget that space is, well, space. Infinite is the extent at wich "nothing" exists. We then can concieve the prospect of Matter being the main composition of "the universe".
Now, i believe in the Big Bang theory, to a degree. With my mind enstated upon the prospect of space being space, it is of possibility of there having been multiple "cosmic eggs".
But where did all the matter in "The cosmic egg" come from? Well, i can simply say one word to this prospect, Recycling.
One of the most respected theories of the big bang is that after a certain amount of time, matter is drawn back into a cosmic egg, and then collapsed back into the origins of the big bang.
I feel that matter drifts out forever, until it composes another small cosmic egg, thus would ehnance my theory of multiple, Big Bangs.
Now, we can wonder how matter was brought into space, but again, let us define space, nothing, outside our atmosphere, in space, is space, nothing else. Matter must have collected over rifts of time. See, the theory of relativity states that objects large enough simply move time and space themselves, thus we can conclude that time exists outside of the earth and matter, we can conviece the principle that even an object of nothingness holds it's own properties of Time.
This might be hard to concive within the minds eye, but if the theory is anywhere near correct, than we can establish the basic elements of time and space apply to pure nothing ness. Given that time is in fact real, and given that it exists in pure nothingness, it is possible that it could be "rifted". This is conclusive in tests performed by high-speed jets outside our atmosphere, upon completon, it has been determend that time can technically "rift", meaning, change itself, such was evident in the 5 atomic clocks on board concurring the exact same time, 1/1000 (at least) different from earth, considering they technically were not out of the atmosphere, that is quite extrordinary.
Anyway, in these time rips, or rifts, we see that a new sort of molecule may have been introduced, matter. Now, wether or not matter was created in large lumps or small lumps, we can concur that if something happens once, it can happen again. And considering the infiniite reaches of space, matter has all the time it needs to form many many different combinations until it achives something like our solar system, and earth.

 

Red

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2002
3,704
0
0
Originally posted by: chazmotaz
Originally posted by: Red
Yes I believe in God. I can't/won't allow myself to think about waking up every morning and experiencing all of the wonderful things in this world and blame it on a scientific reaction of amino acids in a perfect environment. Also, when I try to think of the Big Bang Theory, if it is true, why did it happen? I must think that some being started all of this, and he is still around. And yes, I also believe Jesus was the Son of God.

Yes indeed, a very common argument to be seen in religious debates! Also a very hard one to counter, due to the inevitable "but where did that come from", well, i will try and put the counterment in the best way i can conjure with my limited rescources (and my laziness to go get them)

See my friend, before we tackle your argument we must build up to the point. Let us compose our minds in this respect: how big is the universe?
Well, the theory of the universe is simply a theory, we must understand that there are no boundries in space, lest we forget that space is, well, space. Infinite is the extent at wich "nothing" exists. We then can concieve the prospect of Matter being the main composition of "the universe".
Now, i believe in the Big Bang theory, to a degree. With my mind enstated upon the prospect of space being space, it is of possibility of there having been multiple "cosmic eggs".
But where did all the matter in "The cosmic egg" come from? Well, i can simply say one word to this prospect, Recycling.
One of the most respected theories of the big bang is that after a certain amount of time, matter is drawn back into a cosmic egg, and then collapsed back into the origins of the big bang.
I feel that matter drifts out forever, until it composes another small cosmic egg, thus would ehnance my theory of multiple, Big Bangs.
Now, we can wonder how matter was brought into space, but again, let us define space, nothing, outside our atmosphere, in space, is space, nothing else. Matter must have collected over rifts of time. See, the theory of relativity states that objects large enough simply move time and space themselves, thus we can conclude that time exists outside of the earth and matter, we can conviece the principle that even an object of nothingness holds it's own properties of Time.
This might be hard to concive within the minds eye, but if the theory is anywhere near correct, than we can establish the basic elements of time and space apply to pure nothing ness. Given that time is in fact real, and given that it exists in pure nothingness, it is possible that it could be "rifted". This is conclusive in tests performed by high-speed jets outside our atmosphere, upon completon, it has been determend that time can technically "rift", meaning, change itself, such was evident in the 5 atomic clocks on board concurring the exact same time, 1/1000 (at least) different from earth, considering they technically were not out of the atmosphere, that is quite extrordinary.
Anyway, in these time rips, or rifts, we see that a new sort of molecule may have been introduced, matter. Now, wether or not matter was created in large lumps or small lumps, we can concur that if something happens once, it can happen again. And considering the infiniite reaches of space, matter has all the time it needs to form many many different combinations until it achives something like our solar system, and earth.

And as you mentioned, just like religion, the above theory relies on many assumptions... or faith, if you will. I simply choose to base my faith in a Creator. It surely sounds like ignorance is bliss in my case, and to a scientist, that would certainly be the opinion.

 

Warthog912

Golden Member
Jun 17, 2001
1,653
0
76
See my friend, before we tackle your argument we must build up to the point. Let us compose our minds in this respect: how big is the universe?

Very interesting post. Thanks.
 

Crypticburn

Senior member
Jul 22, 2000
363
0
0
Originally posted by: Red
Also, when I try to think of the Big Bang Theory, if it is true, why did it happen? I must think that some being started all of this, and he is still around.

So essentially you're saying: every effect has a cause/reason for being? And thus god exists because something must have started/created the big bang/universe? The clear question is: What started/created god?

(and no, I have no idea what chazmotaz is rambling on about)

Crypticburn
 

SmoochyTX

Lifer
Apr 19, 2003
13,615
0
0

Red

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2002
3,704
0
0
Originally posted by: Crypticburn
Originally posted by: Red
Also, when I try to think of the Big Bang Theory, if it is true, why did it happen? I must think that some being started all of this, and he is still around.

So essentially you're saying: every effect has a cause/reason for being? And thus god exists because something must have started/created the big bang/universe? The clear question is: What started/created god?

(and no, I have no idea what chazmotaz is rambling on about)

Crypticburn

I believe God always has and always will exist. I don't think he co-exists or exists within our universe, I think he created it, so the cause/effect rule doesn't apply to him. I can't fathom or explain how something has no beginning, but as I mentioned above, I really do believe the human race doesn't exist based on a freakish scientific orgasm of variables that spawned "life".
 

chazmotaz

Junior Member
Apr 20, 2004
10
0
0
I believe it is possible my friend, going on about how it is would require another rant. Since i am not setting out to bore the hell out of you, i will simply say this.
Carbon, it reacts with other elements freak-style. The builup and production of new elements is happening all the time, carbon just happens to be a somewhat abundant one that is extremely reactive in the respect of making reactions complex enough to generate life.
 

SmoochyTX

Lifer
Apr 19, 2003
13,615
0
0
Originally posted by: chazmotaz
I believe it is possible my friend, going on about how it is would require another rant. Since i am not setting out to bore the hell out of you, i will simply say this.
Carbon, it reacts with other elements freak-style. The builup and production of new elements is happening all the time, carbon just happens to be a somewhat abundant one that is extremely reactive in the respect of making reactions complex enough to generate life.

Wow. You sound like you're trying to be smart. I learned that in junior high and I thought teacher said the word was spelled "buildup". She never did use the term "freak-style" however.

:roll:
 

chazmotaz

Junior Member
Apr 20, 2004
10
0
0
Hey dude, sorry. I'm not trying to sound smart, i just want to debate on religion. Mainly in part of me not wanting to tear my friendships asunder in the real world.
Yes, carbon reaction is a very base fact, and most everyone knows it. I'm not trying to sound smart, i just want to get my point across.
 

SmoochyTX

Lifer
Apr 19, 2003
13,615
0
0
Originally posted by: chazmotaz
Hey dude, sorry. I'm not trying to sound smart, i just want to debate on religion. Mainly in part of me not wanting to tear my friendships asunder in the real world.
Yes, carbon reaction is a very base fact, and most everyone knows it. I'm not trying to sound smart, i just want to get my point across.

Well if you truly want to debate on religion and aren't trolling, the place to do it is here: http://forums.anandtech.com/categories.cfm?catid=52&amp;entercat=y

If you're not wanting to debate about it in the recommended place, then obviously you're trolling. (Note: the key word is debate)

Good night and take care.
 

Crypticburn

Senior member
Jul 22, 2000
363
0
0
Originally posted by: Red
Originally posted by: Crypticburn
Originally posted by: Red
Also, when I try to think of the Big Bang Theory, if it is true, why did it happen? I must think that some being started all of this, and he is still around.
So essentially you're saying: every effect has a cause/reason for being? And thus god exists because something must have started/created the big bang/universe? The clear question is: What started/created god?
Crypticburn
I believe God always has and always will exist. I don't think he co-exists or exists within our universe, I think he created it, so the cause/effect rule doesn't apply to him. I can't fathom or explain how something has no beginning, but as I mentioned above, I really do believe the human race doesn't exist based on a freakish scientific orgasm of variables that spawned "life".

1) Logical Fallacy:
- a) You believe Jesus was the Son of God.
- - i) This implies you're a christian
- - ii) This implies you believe in the trinity
- - iii) This implies you believe Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are one
- b) You believe Jesus walked the earth
- c) God have existed in our universe

2) Logical Fallacy:
- a) Assume God always existed and always will
- b) Assume our Universe exists
- c) At this point, God co-exists with our universe

These will be politely ignored, as they play little role in this discussion. I would like to clarify my position before I continue: I believe you have every right to believe whatever you want, as long as you don't force it down someone else's throat. I also believe entering into a discussion on any subject is bound to be fruitless unless you enter with an open mind. I have entered this discussion in this mindset, and expect the same.

Your first statement cannot be argued against through logic. For me to say "I believe zoits always existed and always will exist" does not get us anywhere. Especially with the qualifier that "zoits do not exist within our universe". Prove to me zoits don't exist.

However, your second statement can be argued against. The problem in arguing against it lies in the fact that it would cover hundreds of years of research, along with thousands/millions of peer reviewed papers on the subjects. If you would like to review these subjects please do, they include: The formation of the foundations on life in simulated atmospheres of pre-historic earth, evolution, and theories about the formation of the universe. No, there is no definite answer (other than "zoits made it"), but science is designed to investigate these questions, and to ignore evidence because it counters your beliefs is ignorant.

You have no proof your god existed, or exists. (especially if we assume she never existed in this universe) And as such, there is no more reason to believe in him than "zoits".

Crypticburn