hey everyone: Thanks for paying $40 mil for 2 miles of road

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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
47,994
37,167
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There is Fed, and State. I'm talking about the state of IL. I would only hope (even though I have very very very very very little doubt I'd disappointed in my hope) that federal highway projects are drafted, bid, managed, and accounted for far more honestly and competantly than we have done in IL.

I would make no such assumption since construction is left to the state DOTs once the Feds give the money.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
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Hey, I'm all for those using the road paying for the use of the road, whether through a toll system and/or fuel tax (either of which is mandated by law to only be spent on the actual upkeep of the road, nothing else), being levied. It's the method IL has consistently gone about constructing and maintaining those roads that is the issue.

And no, I'm not for ID. If people don't like others having control over the land they own, F'em, tough luck.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
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Road projects also have to be inspected step by step by the state DOT inspectors.

Some states will have independant 3rd party inspectors, others use their own (some are union) guys.

State guys are overwhelmed with work to do. A road contractor has to stop what they are doing until the existing work has been approved. In the meantime; they move the majority of equipment and manpower onto another project. They continue onto that project until a breaking point. That breaking opint may be well after the first project was stopped and also approved.

The solution to that is to have IL inspector(s), who work for IL and are non-union (so their entire loyalty is only to the state) on the major projects at all times...watching what is being done, at all times, and with complete authority, at all times. Effectively, the state person(s) there are in charge, the foreman works under them to manage those people to get the job done.

Chuck
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
47,994
37,167
136
Hey, I'm all for those using the road paying for the use of the road, whether through a toll system and/or fuel tax (either of which is mandated by law to only be spent on the actual upkeep of the road, nothing else), being levied. It's the method IL has consistently gone about constructing and maintaining those roads that is the issue.

And no, I'm not for ID. If people don't like others having control over the land they own, F'em, tough luck.

Every time a pol talks about raising the gas tax or more tolls people shit a brick around here.

If we really want to help our roads and economy the the tri-state area would look at establishing truck only routes that are designed/built much more sturdily than the interstates are. Roads that aren't subject to huge numbers of semi-tucks on a daily basis last a LOT longer.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
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That is not going to do anything however, as the issue isn't the placement of the roads themselves.

We already have roads that are presumably built to handle the truck traffic. The issue is not the funding of those roads (we collect shit tons of fuel taxes, and toll road money, in addition to federal money, and wherever else we get money from), the issue is that we don't build the F'ing roads correctly or timely.

Building more roads just for trucks or light vehicles (whichever you'd like to build the new roads for), that are just as badly constructed, is not going to solve the problem of IL's bad roads.

I just did a quick Google, and from a CMAP document, IL 2008 gross fuel tax revenues (meaning: does not include toll road revenues) were about 1.375 Billion dollars. Right from their own document:

"In 2008, roughly $200M was deducted off the top for various programs and funds (my comment: One could only imagine what those "off the top" deductions really went to), $341M was distributed the IDOT Road Fund, $200M to the IDOT Construction Fund, and nearly $600M was allocated to local governments."

That's $541 Million dollars (it's less sickening if you liven it up a little by thinking about it in a Dr. Evil voice) that IDOT got in one year.

And this is only funds from the fuel tax...not tolls, not federal monies, not anything else.

Again: We don't have a revenue problem.

Chuck
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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Every time a pol talks about raising the gas tax or more tolls people shit a brick around here.

If we really want to help our roads and economy the the tri-state area would look at establishing truck only routes that are designed/built much more sturdily than the interstates are. Roads that aren't subject to huge numbers of semi-tucks on a daily basis last a LOT longer.

The roads should be of poured concrete to a depth about 25% more than the standard road. cost a lot more but can stand up to the heavy double loads w/ no issues.

Problem with having dedicated roads is that people will see these empty lanes and feel that a car should be able to use them.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
47,994
37,167
136
The roads should be of poured concrete to a depth about 25% more than the standard road. cost a lot more but can stand up to the heavy double loads w/ no issues.

Problem with having dedicated roads is that people will see these empty lanes and feel that a car should be able to use them.

Posting big signs that state "Trucks Only" and mentioning that it is enforced a la the tollway camera system should take care of that.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
47,994
37,167
136
That is not going to do anything however, as the issue isn't the placement of the roads themselves.

We already have roads that are presumably built to handle the truck traffic. The issue is not the funding of those roads (we collect shit tons of fuel taxes, and toll road money, in addition to federal money, and wherever else we get money from), the issue is that we don't build the F'ing roads correctly or timely.

Building more roads just for trucks or light vehicles (whichever you'd like to build the new roads for), that are just as badly constructed, is not going to solve the problem of IL's bad roads.

I just did a quick Google, and from a CMAP document, IL 2008 gross fuel tax revenues (meaning: does not include toll road revenues) were about 1.375 Billion dollars. Right from their own document:

"In 2008, roughly $200M was deducted off the top for various programs and funds (my comment: One could only imagine what those "off the top" deductions really went to), $341M was distributed the IDOT Road Fund, $200M to the IDOT Construction Fund, and nearly $600M was allocated to local governments."

That's $541 Million dollars (it's less sickening if you liven it up a little by thinking about it in a Dr. Evil voice) that IDOT got in one year.

And this is only funds from the fuel tax...not tolls, not federal monies, not anything else.

Again: We don't have a revenue problem.

Chuck

The report you cited supports raising the gas tax 50% based on the data available between revenues and expected expenses over the next several decades. Though even it admits that revenues derived from fuel taxes will likely continue to decline in the face of more efficient vehicles coming to market.

And yes, $500M/yr is piddly shit when it comes to maintaining the road network that we have.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,016
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You aren't getting it: That's from fuel alone. That doesn't include the tolls, or federal subsidies.

And this report is from Chicago...their first, second, third, and last thought for any problem is to raise taxes. That this report recommends that is of about zero surprise.

That said, I don't have a problem necessairily for tolls and/or the gas tax to increase: If we knew that things were being done properly and efficiently...

They're not.

So, why feed more money into a system that is clearly broke? Fix the system...then come to the public with what's needed.

Problem is...we need the larger broken system to fix a large part of itself that is broken. Odds of that happening?

Zero.

Given that...odds that you'll ever get people to endorse giving more of their money to the broken system:

Zero.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
47,994
37,167
136
Its not 500m a year, its much much more. You didnt read the article

Our entire outlay for roads is, he chose to focus on what IDOT itself gets.

Also IDOT sees NO toll money.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
47,994
37,167
136
You aren't getting it: That's from fuel alone. That doesn't include the tolls, or federal subsidies.

And this report is from Chicago...their first, second, third, and last thought for any problem is to raise taxes. That this report recommends that is of about zero surprise.

That said, I don't have a problem necessairily for tolls and/or the gas tax to increase: If we knew that things were being done properly and efficiently...

They're not.

So, why feed more money into a system that is clearly broke? Fix the system...then come to the public with what's needed.

Problem is...we need the larger broken system to fix a large part of itself that is broken. Odds of that happening?

Zero.

Given that...odds that you'll ever get people to endorse giving more of their money to the broken system:

Zero.

Did you see the graph in the report noting the falling gross fuel tax revenue since 1999? More and wider roads can't be maintained or built properly on fuel tax revenues that are falling 1.5&#37; on average every year. What bills you do get which have dropped by that amount every year for the last decade? None I'd wager.

The question becomes where to get the money or what do you want to live without.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,016
36
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Our entire outlay for roads is, he chose to focus on what IDOT itself gets.

Also IDOT sees NO toll money.

I'm not sure how we're having this communication gap:

What I referenced in the article was revenues from fuel taxes, and not total revenues.

Total revenues I haven't even went and looked at. Total would roughly be, my guess, the aforementioned fuel tax revenues, tollway revenues, federal outlays, and anything else I haven't thought of.

Obviously, total revenues are going to be far higher than just fuel tax revenues alone.

So in Reality, they get far more than $541M. That's helping my argument, not hurting it.

Chuck
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
47,994
37,167
136
I'm not sure how we're having this communication gap:

What I referenced in the article was revenues from fuel taxes, and not total[ revenues.

Total revenues I haven't even went and looked at. Total would roughly be, my guess, the aforementioned fuel tax revenues, tollway revenues, federal outlays, and anything else I haven't thought of.

Obviously, total revenues are going to be far higher than just fuel tax revenues alone.

So in Reality, they get far more than $541M. That's helping my argument, not hurting it.

Chuck

IDOT sees not one dime of tollway money. That is entirely within the tollway authority. ZERO MONEY....read it with me now....ZERO MONEY.

Federal transportation funding has not kept up with needs for many many years. There is an enormous backlog of projects around the country that are waiting in line for funds from the now bankrupt Highway Trust Fund (which suffers the same problem as our own fuel based fund). This cannot and has not been relied upon for our capital transportation needs (the state has had to pass a number of programs over the years).

For the record IL also has the 3rd most miles of paved road in any US state.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,016
36
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Did you see the graph in the report noting the falling gross fuel tax revenue since 1999? More and wider roads can't be maintained or built properly on fuel tax revenues that are falling 1.5% on average every year. What bills you do get which have dropped by that amount every year for the last decade? None I'd wager.

The question becomes where to get the money or what do you want to live without.

I saw they graph where they normalized everything into 2008 dollars, and revenues have been falling in that chart.

So Yes, I get that costs are going up, and revenues as a % of that are down. Time to cut costs I guess, right? And, they've known this since 1999, so, I'm sure, we've been under cost cutting measures since 2000 or so right? That's...heck, 11 years now.

So for 11 years the Dem's that control the state have known this, I take it this shouldn't even be an issue? Surely this must be true, as Dem left and right...er...well, 'less left' on this P&N board will tell us that all this country needs is for Dem's to run it and it'll be miraculously saved. So by that logic, proved out in IL, we don't have a problem, correct?

I mean, 11 years to solve a known problem...hundreds of Millions each year...gosh, whatever problems we have with the roads must be solved by now.

Yeah....................
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,016
36
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IDOT sees not one dime of tollway money. That is entirely within the tollway authority. ZERO MONEY....read it with me now....ZERO MONEY.

Federal transportation funding has not kept up with needs for many many years. There is an enormous backlog of projects around the country that are waiting in line for funds from the now bankrupt Highway Trust Fund (which suffers the same problem as our own fuel based fund). This cannot and has not been relied upon for our capital transportation needs (the state has had to pass a number of programs over the years).

For the record IL also has the 3rd most miles of paved road in any US state.

So read this with me:

"About the Illinois Tollway
The Illinois Tollway is a user-fee system that receives no state or federal funds for maintenance and operations. The agency maintains and operates 286 miles of interstate tollways in 12 counties in Northern Illinois, including the Reagan Memorial Tollway (I-88), the Veterans Memorial Tollway (I-355), the Jane Addams Memorial Tollway (I-90) and the Tri-State Tollway (I-94/I-294/I-80)."

So now rationalize this with me:

People buying gas - which is where the $541M in fuel tax revenue IL gets - don't have their gas tax go to the tollway if they drive on the tollway, or their gas tax go to IDOT if they drive on non-tollway roads...all the gas tax goes to IL - none goes to the tollway folks.

Congrats...you just bolstered my argument.

Chuck
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
47,994
37,167
136
So read this with me:

"About the Illinois Tollway
The Illinois Tollway is a user-fee system that receives no state or federal funds for maintenance and operations. The agency maintains and operates 286 miles of interstate tollways in 12 counties in Northern Illinois, including the Reagan Memorial Tollway (I-88), the Veterans Memorial Tollway (I-355), the Jane Addams Memorial Tollway (I-90) and the Tri-State Tollway (I-94/I-294/I-80)."

So now rationalize this with me:

People buying gas - which is where the $541M in fuel tax revenue IL gets - don't have their gas tax go to the tollway if they drive on the tollway, or their gas tax go to IDOT if they drive on non-tollway roads...all the gas tax goes to IL - none goes to the tollway folks.

Congrats...you just bolstered my argument.

Chuck

You realize that you spent half the thread complaining about I-88 right? Edit: Never mind, that was mostly Nick.

The tollways also connect on both end (and all along their route) to non-toll state routes and local roads which are the responsibility of the state/county DOTs. This creates additional expenditures for those agencies which see little more revenue from the increased traffic.
 
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chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,016
36
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It's not additional expenditures, it's the same expenditure they had when they created the highway/road and hooked them up together. It's just that IL gets more money proportionally now because they're not paying to maintain the tollway, but getting ALL the fuel revenues.

If we wanted it to be 'fair', money would be given to the tollway folks because people are using - and hence buying - fuel to drive on those roads.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
47,994
37,167
136
I saw they graph where they normalized everything into 2008 dollars, and revenues have been falling in that chart.

So Yes, I get that costs are going up, and revenues as a % of that are down. Time to cut costs I guess, right? And, they've known this since 1999, so, I'm sure, we've been under cost cutting measures since 2000 or so right? That's...heck, 11 years now.

So for 11 years the Dem's that control the state have known this, I take it this shouldn't even be an issue? Surely this must be true, as Dem left and right...er...well, 'less left' on this P&N board will tell us that all this country needs is for Dem's to run it and it'll be miraculously saved. So by that logic, proved out in IL, we don't have a problem, correct?

I mean, 11 years to solve a known problem...hundreds of Millions each year...gosh, whatever problems we have with the roads must be solved by now.

Yeah....................

The state has been cutting projects and opting for resurfacing instead of rebuilding wherever possible to squeeze a few more years out before being faced with tearing up road beds (which they can't afford). The state hasn't passed a capital highway bill in years and federal funds are slimmer than ever, all the while the fuel tax revenue has been falling.

I don't care how long or loudly you rant against unions or government inefficiency the shortfall can't be made up even if you managed to totally eliminate both. Increasing amounts of road can't be cared for with an ever decreasing supply of money. The funding formulas at the core of our transportation systems need to be rethought.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
47,994
37,167
136
It's not additional expenditures, it's the same expenditure they had when they created the highway/road and hooked them up together. It's just that IL gets more money proportionally now because they're not paying to maintain the tollway, but getting ALL the fuel revenues.

If we wanted it to be 'fair', money would be given to the tollway folks because people are using - and hence buying - fuel to drive on those roads.

The state didn't pay for the construction of the tollways, the tollways did. They borrowed money for construction then began paying it back after they started collecting tolls.

The state inherited the responsibility of upgrading the intersecting routes to accommodate a traffic load that didn't previously exist.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,016
36
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I'll have no problem paying higher fuel tax, and/or toll tax, and/or federal tax that in part gets sent back to IL for roads...

...just as soon as IL can get roads built without taking years, costing Billions, and falling apart 3 years later.

Once they get their situation fixed, then they can come to the taxpayers and say, Look, we did all this and we've changed, we need to raise x to do y though, so here's what we're proposing.

Problem is, they've haven't done that, and they've had at minimum 10 years to do so.

So I don't care how much you whine they have no other options....in my view and basically - and literally - everyone else's view I've ever had this discussion with (which includes basically types of people that spread the gamut, including actual road construction workers themselves ((although of course they didn't like my idea about pay cuts))), IL needs some massive housecleaning on how they go about doing their road projects.

You think they're hyper efficient and everything's being done on the up and up. I don't. We can agree to disagree here, I'm fine with that.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,016
36
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The state didn't pay for the construction of the tollways, the tollways did. They borrowed money for construction then began paying it back after they started collecting tolls.

The state inherited the responsibility of upgrading the intersecting routes to accommodate a traffic load that didn't previously exist.

And now the state can't manage to pave a road properly because of the additional traffic on Higgins from users of 290.

Lets just end the back and forth now...you've gone into the surreal....

Chuck
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
47,994
37,167
136
And now the state can't manage to pave a road properly because of the additional traffic on Higgins from users of 290.

Lets just end the back and forth now...you've gone into the surreal....

Chuck

The assertion that our state routes in Cook and the collar counties resemble what they were back when first constructed and thus should cost no more to maintain is beyond surreal.