He's not even in the same league as Obama.

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BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
15,880
1,550
126
The stock market mythical palaver and employment hoopla is nonsense.

If any politicians lie, they all give tacit assent to this myth. Open your macroeconomics textbook: the only ways government policy affects prosperity is through the (Keynesian!) multiplier of domestic spending stimulus, increases in government spending and employment, and manipulation of the money supply ("quantitative easing"). A president can "say things" that affect the stock market in the short term. Trump has unsettled the market several times causing dives in the DOW. His policy of tariffs has done more harm than good, damaging the agricultural sector. Most of what he has "done" is showmanship -- for instance, when he arranged a deal before the election so that Carrier employees could keep their jobs. The promise was that about 1,000 or more would continue working; later, it was shown that this materialized for only half that number, and the remainder had probably made arrangements for Christmas spending under the rosy expectations, just to find that they wouldn't be able to pay their credit card bills after putting presents under the Christmas tree. The "New NAFTA" changes nothing for the status-quo, but only gives him a chance to thump his chest over nothing.

The economy goes through a sine-wave boom and bust cycle. The busts can be worsened by bad government policy, and they can be attenuated with good policy. And since Trump -- who supposedly majored in Economics as an undergraduate -- knows nothing of this and other aspects of the Rational Expectations paradigm, his showmanship attempts are mere shots in the dark.

As for the tax cuts, anyone who says they've prospered under those cuts is either already filthy rich, or they've imagined that chump-change is a money mountain. The cuts have only benefited the very rich. It may be that my own overall tax-rate has fallen three percent, but it's still chump-change. He's kicked 700,000 people off food stamps, to turn around and say that his "prosperity" has reduced the need of 700,000 people for food stamps. Add up the misery he's caused; balance it against the benefits -- and it shows net damage.

But people believe all this mythical nonsense.

I have a theory about the surge in approval to 49%, linked to the impeachment outcome. Most people are confused about judicial outcomes -- even with the political dimension of congress as jury. Look at the way the Trumper surrogates have argued the most absurd nonsense on behalf of Trump: they are behaving as extreme defense attorneys willing to use any subterfuge to get their client off the hook. The parallel of (supposedly "non-political") jury trials demonstrates the bias in the legal system to protect the innocent so that the subjective measure of "reasonable doubt" predictably allows the guilty to go free. But that is not a scientific assessment.

There is plenty of evidence in so many different aspects that would propel further investigation to uncover more facts to surmount the "reasonable doubt" standard, but McConnell's Senate has blocked the inquiry.

So the public, some of whom turned against Trump with the perception that he would be found "guilty", now accepts the bias of "acquittal" to tilt their opinion in the positive direction. Since they think our politics is like an NFL game -- a matter of winning or losing -- the polls reflect their fickle and whimsical herd behavior.

As for the rights of citizen-persons to be "innocent until proven [beyond reasonable doubt] guilty", the President is no mere citizen, and he is not just a "person". He's a Thing, being the Chief Executive. A higher standard should be applied, tilting the usual judicial bias in the other direction.

The man is a National Security risk. At the same time, the Trumpers seem to think that "their" rights would be "violated" with an impeachment proceeding that leads to removal from office. Those are the perceptions of people sticking their ostrich-heads in the sand, refusing to see the facts and the inferences from those facts, because they merely wish to be the "winners" of an election.

But elections should not be Zero-Sum games. And Trump has been playing the Zero-Sum card consistently for the duration.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,636
8,522
136
While not perfect (because who is?), Obama’s eight years in office were filled with love and compassion for not just the American people, but for every human being around the globe. It didn’t matter the color of your skin, the person or people you loved, where you came from, where you’d been, or where you were going — Barack Obama wanted to see you happy and successful and did everything within his power to ensure that everyone not only had the right, but the ability to pursue life, liberty, and happiness.

A little over-the-top! He's a decent guy, though, that much is obvious. Equally obvious is that even a good guy can't achieve a great deal as President, because politics doesn't work like that.

I hope in any job I leave, I'm replaced by a Trump. Even I would look good then. Everyone will then remember me in glowing terms forever more.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,407
8,698
136
A little over-the-top! He's a decent guy, though, that much is obvious. Equally obvious is that even a good guy can't achieve a great deal as President, because politics doesn't work like that.

I hope in any job I leave, I'm replaced by a Trump. Even I would look good then. Everyone will then remember me in glowing terms forever more.
I may be naive as hell but I liked Obama, in office and after office. Yeah, decent describes him OK in a single word. Try to picture Trump in this photo:

maxresdefault.jpg
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,636
8,522
136
How the hell do you measure a % improvement in 'race relations'? And such a precise figure! What else? A 12.2% decrease in ennui? An 8% increase in joy? Human souls now 6% closer to salvation? Scientistic nonsense. Presumably it means one survey showed a % change in the reported responses? Not really a measure of 'race relations'.

If Trump has any redeeming qualities, what would those be?

His lack of interest in, and nervousness about, the world outside the US, means he's less likely than some to engage in major military adventures. Which doesn't mean he couldn't start a war by accident.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
31,441
9,343
136
I may be naive as hell but I liked Obama, in office and after office. Yeah, decent describes him OK in a single word.

Obama and his family were decent, wholesome and did your country proud on the world stage.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,200
18,670
146
His lack of interest in, and nervousness about, the world outside the US, means he's less likely than some to engage in major military adventures. Which doesn't mean he couldn't start a war by accident.

Trump has been conducting business outside the U.S. for quite some time. Which just means he'll favor any of his business partners and remain ignorant of the rest of our foreign policy. I think hes made that pretty clear.

Of course, he panders to the U.S. citizens who ignore numbers and are scared of their own shadows cause they're a darker shade.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,407
8,698
136
How the hell do you measure a % improvement in 'race relations'? And such a precise figure! What else? A 12.2% decrease in ennui? An 8% increase in joy? Human souls now 6% closer to salvation? Scientistic nonsense. Presumably it means one survey showed a % change in the reported responses? Not really a measure of 'race relations'.



His lack of interest in, and nervousness about, the world outside the US, means he's less likely than some to engage in major military adventures. Which doesn't mean he couldn't start a war by accident.
He was evidently a hair's breadth from doing just that when he offed Soleimani. They say now around 4 dozen US soldiers with traumatic brain injuries from that. I'm not convinced no US soldiers died in that. Word was, if any did, WAR!
 

Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
4,264
3,840
136
I may be naive as hell but I liked Obama, in office and after office. Yeah, decent describes him OK in a single word. Try to picture Trump in this photo:

maxresdefault.jpg

Trump would prefer to be in this photo.

1581250211371.png


He was evidently a hair's breadth from doing just that when he offed Soleimani. They say now around 4 dozen US soldiers with traumatic brain injuries from that. I'm not convinced no US soldiers died in that. Word was, if any did, WAR!

Trump is the only president in my lifetime to have an active contract out on him. (Iran) I bet he thanks God every night that John Wick is a fictional character.

1581250617838.png
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,636
8,522
136
I may be naive as hell but I liked Obama, in office and after office. Yeah, decent describes him OK in a single word. Try to picture Trump in this photo:

I like him as a person. Other than the fact he makes me feel like a screw-up in comparison. As a person he's a much more emotionally-mature and responsible high-achiever than I am. As a President I think his accomplishments were extremely limited - but partly that's just the nature of the system and of politics. Which is something that bugs me about some Sanders-fans, as it happens - I fear they expect way too much, and while I far prefer him (Sanders...or Obama for that matter) to Biden, I think the difference in what either will achieve is not all that great.

He's not the Messiah, he's just a decent bloke.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,407
8,698
136
Trump would prefer to be in this photo.
View attachment 16890
Trump is the only president in my lifetime to have an active contract out on him. (Iran) I bet he thanks God every night that John Wick is a fictional character.

View attachment 16892
Truly, there are a lot of people who will celebrate at word of Trump's death, myself included. I'm not one to wish ill on people, but for him I make an exception.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,407
8,698
136
Obama and his family were decent, wholesome and did your country proud on the world stage.
From the moment of his election and throughout his two terms I thought/felt that it was the finest moment for America. I didn't realize how ugly the pendulum swing in the other direction could/would get. I hope America changes considerably away from two party dominance. It's stultifying. I'm bracing myself for a tumultuous year.

Now, Michelle Obama's personal war on the food industry's assault on youth, the processed, unhealthy food that goes into school lunch programs, and etc. was apparently coopted by those special interests. I don't think she was quite aware of what was happening at the time. I got this from this documentary, which I believe I've watched 3 times: Fed Up (2014, narrated by Katie Couric)

 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,730
28,908
136
Wrong, I did very well under the tax cuts. My bracket dropped 2%, I benefited from the Child tax credit and I benefited from the LLC 20% tax pass-through profits. I'm considered middle class by the way.

So Gallup is lying? Get real. They've been historically accurate for decades. Just because you don't want to admit that race relations are better doesn't mean anything to me. Show me substance and I'll pay attention. Logically, when the economy does better people are happier in general. And considering the economy is doing better than the obama years, why are you surprised? Eg when fast food workers are Taco Bell can aspire to a $100k salary as manager, do you think they're concerned about race?

In fact, Gallup says that Trump has the highest economic approval of any president since Bush during 9/11:

Around 75% of Americans think the economy is excellent or good:


So again, why are you surprised that race relations have improved 14% under Trump over Obama and Trump has a 3% higher approval vs Obama when the economy has continued to shatter unemployment and stock market records?
Nice job either lying about what I just said or refusing to acknowledge my responses. So Trump like.

#1 I NEVER said Gallup lied I said that poll is an outlier. The poll of polls you jerked off to in another thread and RCP don't have Trump's approval moving anywhere near the level of Gallup.

#2 You did not mention Trump's underwater approvals his ENTIRE term. The only President who accomplished this feat. Proud much?

#3. As for you benefiting personally, I think you are lying just to make a point. Trump does the same thing and you are just like him

#4. You failed to show any major publication including Fox that has pools indicating race relations are better under Trump. In fact let's look at you beloved Gallup and their pool on race relations. I actually looked it up

2016 Very/somewhat satisfied 27% Very/somewhat dissatisfied 64%

Here comes Trump

2017 Very/somewhat satisfied 22% Very/somewhat dissatisfied 72%

Now if you pull the WE article the cleverly IGNORED the NEGATIVE SPIKE from 2016-2017 when Trump was taking over, skewing the results

#5. Here is a question you FAILED to answer. Name one part of the economy Trump turned around that wasn't already trending positive? If you are rich the tax cuts helped you but almost all stories about the tax cuts say no effect on the middle class, no spike in job creation as claimed and they didn't pay for themselves as claimed.

Now since you are lauding the so called turnaround in race relations under Trump, here is another part of Gallup's survey asking how do people think black people are being treated. If I am a white guy making 100K at Taco Bell I don't care. Being black myself I must care


Next we'd like to know how you feel about the way various groups in society are treated. For each of the following groups please say whether you are very satisfied, somewhat satisfied, somewhat dissatisfied or very dissatisfied with the way they are treated. How about … Blacks?

Very satisfiedSomewhat satisfiedSomewhat dissatisfiedVery dissatisfiedNo opinion
%%%%%
National adults
2018 Nov 19-Dec 22182624302
2016 Jun 7-Jul 1163527201

Whites
2018 Nov 19-Dec 22222924242
2016 Jun 7-Jul 1173928151

Blacks
2018 Nov 19-Dec 2271118621
2016 Jun 7-Jul 112202542*


Even white people admitted blacks are being treated worse under Trump. I note several publications used the skewed excerpts by the WE to parrot the idea race relations are better under Trump which is complete and utter bullshit.

I've shown 2 things. You are moderately skilled at lying and exaggerating about Trump. Race relations have NOT gotten better since Trump using your own precious Gallup.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,407
8,698
136
I like him as a person. Other than the fact he makes me feel like a screw-up in comparison. As a person he's a much more emotionally-mature and responsible high-achiever than I am. As a President I think his accomplishments were extremely limited - but partly that's just the nature of the system and of politics. Which is something that bugs me about some Sanders-fans, as it happens - I fear they expect way too much, and while I far prefer him (Sanders...or Obama for that matter) to Biden, I think the difference in what either will achieve is not all that great.

He's not the Messiah, he's just a decent bloke.
You appear to be talking about Sanders there in the last sentence, calling him a decent bloke, not the Messiah. I agree. I also think that if elected and he stays healthy and energetic that he will be a consummate fighter. What will he accomplish? Don't know. I figure it will be a fight. If the Democrats take over the house and senate, there could be a whole lot done. I'm all in favor or marginalizing the Republican Party at this time. They absolutely have it coming.

Mit Romney, he stuck his neck out. I haven't read analysis of what/why he said what he said at the Senate impeachment trial, but he sounded courageous. Maybe he had nothing to lose and just figured why not say something bold.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,636
8,522
136
Trump has been conducting business outside the U.S. for quite some time. Which just means he'll favor any of his business partners and remain ignorant of the rest of our foreign policy. I think hes made that pretty clear.

Of course, he panders to the U.S. citizens who ignore numbers and are scared of their own shadows cause they're a darker shade.


Well, yea, I'm scraping the barrel. I think he's a bit better than Dubya in that one area. He clearly feels out-of-his-depth when dealing with the outside world, which means he is lacking in resolve when it comes to actively pursuing military plans, for good or ill. But Dubya represents a low bar.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,636
8,522
136
You appear to be talking about Sanders there in the last sentence, calling him a decent bloke, not the Messiah. I agree. I also think that if elected and he stays healthy and energetic that he will be a consummate fighter. What will he accomplish? Don't know. I figure it will be a fight. If the Democrats take over the house and senate, there could be a whole lot done. I'm all in favor or marginalizing the Republican Party at this time. They absolutely have it coming.

Mit Romney, he stuck his neck out. I haven't read analysis of what/why he said what he said at the Senate impeachment trial, but he sounded courageous. Maybe he had nothing to lose and just figured why not say something bold.


Yeah, I meant both of them, really, but more Sanders at the end there. It's not a matter of the merits of individuals, just that change is really really hard and there are hugely powerful forces against it (and not just the formal political structures like which party controls the Senate, I mean the deeply rooted systems of power in society and the economy), so in the end, as much as I am unimpressed with Biden, I just wonder if between the different Democrats the real-world results would not actually be vastly different.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,407
8,698
136
Yeah, I meant both of them, really, but more Sanders at the end there. It's not a matter of the merits of individuals, just that change is really really hard and there are hugely powerful forces against it (and not just the formal political structures like which party controls the Senate, I mean the deeply rooted systems of power in society and the economy), so in the end, as much as I am unimpressed with Biden, I just wonder if between the different Democrats the real-world results would not actually be vastly different.
Just Biden's body language, with one hand in a pocket IIRC, suggests to me that he's the status quo Demo candidate. He may be the most electable, I don't know. I'm thinking that the best outcome would be a more progressive Demo who BEATS TRUMP.
 

ShookKnight

Senior member
Dec 12, 2019
646
658
96
I doubt Obama ever paid $150,000 for sex.

I also doubt that Obama would ever marry a former prostitute and help her secure chain citizenship via anchor babies...
 
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Jan 25, 2011
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Must be particularly stinging to know that Obama's production company won an Oscar last night. The one medium that Trump has tried so hard to get approval in.
 
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