Here's what AMD didn't want us to see - HAWX 2 benchmark

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ugaboga232

Member
Sep 23, 2009
144
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It seems ironic that people are jumping to conclusions already about AMD wanting to fix a performance bug. We still don't know if it will impact image quality. Stuff like this happens all the time to both sides, so why do we foam at the mouth when AMD wants to increase performance?

Also, I am quite confident that you can easily find a benchmark where AMD cards destroy Nvidia cards. Doesn't mean either is faster, its just the performance of that specific feature.

Also Cayman is supposed to have more radical changes to the hardware itself, so we can see if there any further tessellation speed ups.
 

AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
3,979
589
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Aha... what rendering path is that exactly?

I found an interesting blog, by you.
Have you made it your mission to call all AMD employees scumbags, idiots, and liars?

Honestly, responding to anything you post is pointless. You are not interested in any meaningful discussion, you only want to slam and berate anything AMD says or does. :thumbsdown::thumbsdown:


Personal attacks and member call-outs are not acceptable.

Moderator Idontcare
 
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Scali

Banned
Dec 3, 2004
2,495
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I found an interesting blog, by you.
Have you made it your mission to call all AMD employees scumbags, idiots, and liars?

Honestly, responding to anything you post is pointless. You are not interested in any meaningful discussion, you only want to slam and berate anything AMD says or does. :thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

I see you had to google to find the answer?
Or well, seems you haven't quite found it yet, have you?
 

AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
3,979
589
126
I see you had to google to find the answer?
Or well, seems you haven't quite found it yet, have you?
No I was trying to find the images that I posted in a forum that included Batman AA etc. on an ATI card. I don't have the images locally anymore.

So why don't you respond to the question, what is with your AMD hate?
 

Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
4,419
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No I was trying to find the images that I posted in a forum that included Batman AA etc. on an ATI card. I don't have the images locally anymore.

So why don't you respond to the question, what is with your AMD hate?

I'm actually more interested in your evidence, than in this new smokescreen?
 

Scali

Banned
Dec 3, 2004
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No I was trying to find the images that I posted in a forum that included Batman AA etc. on an ATI card. I don't have the images locally anymore.

I don't think you understand. I didn't argue about the images. I'm talking about the rendering path. This is crucial for the understanding.

So why don't you respond to the question, what is with your AMD hate?

Hate? That's a very strong word, isn't it?
And AMD? No, not AMD itself, but Huddy, and some other PR guys.
Huddy's biggest mistake was that he stabbed a developer friend of mine in the back, in one of his big press releases, published on a large variety of sites.
As a result, the company's reputation was damaged severely, and business was rather problematic in the years that followed.

You see, you can't just do what Huddy/AMD are doing here. In this case it's Ubisoft, a big player, and they already don't exactly have a good reputation. It's not the first time they're involved in shady business... I don't really care about that.
But AMD always takes it out on the developers and the companies when AMD's hardware is 'treated unfairly' according to AMD (read: their hardware is not doing as well as they want in benchmarks... sometimes even when they're actually ahead, the greedy b'stards). This damages the reputation of these companies and the developers involved... which is especially nasty when these developers aren't actually doing what AMD accuses them of (which happened to be the case with my friend).
Basically, Huddy is the scum of the earth for what he does to developers. Don't you understand?
I can't recall nVidia going after the companies/developers directly in such situations. They generally just try to 'fix' it in the drivers, without specifically pointing the finger at the developers. It's just a bit more classy that way, and only nVidia gets hurt if they get caught.
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,144
32
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People are going to intepret this differently, but it deserves to be looked at again.

AMD responding to nVidias request that reviewers use the H.A.W.X 2 prerelease demo in the reviews of AMD's new part:

It has come to our attention that you may have received an early build of a benchmark based on the upcoming Ubisoft title H.A.W.X. 2. I'm sure you are fully aware that the timing of this benchmark is not coincidental and is an attempt by our competitor to negatively influence your reviews of the AMD Radeon™ HD 6800 series products. We suggest you do not use this benchmark at present as it has known issues with its implementation of DirectX® 11 tessellation and does not serve as a useful indicator of performance for the AMD Radeon™ HD 6800 series. A quick comparison of the performance data in H.A.W.X. 2, with tessellation on, and that of other games/benchmarks will demonstrate how unrepresentative H.A.W.X. 2 performance is of real world performance.

AMD has demonstrated to Ubisoft tessellation performance improvements that benefit all GPUs, but the developer has chosen not to implement them in the preview benchmark. For that reason, we are working on a driver-based solution in time for the final release of the game that improves performance without sacrificing image quality. In the meantime we recommend you hold off using the benchmark as it will not provide a useful measure of performance relative to other DirectX® 11 games using tessellation.

This was a response by one of the members at HardOCP who puts it well in a few words
"The only thing I can see here for sure is this: if there is a solution that works well on both vendors and they pick one for a particular vendor, then its the customers that are loosing."

We have seen this before when nVidia gets involved in how games are presented to gamers. Hurting the game experience as long as it shows nVidia in a better light appears to be in the mission statement at nVidia headquarters.

The verdict isn't out on what's going on with HAWX 2, but we did see ubisoft release a patch that REMOVED support for DX 10.1 in assasains creed when it showed AMD hardware running the game better than nVidia hardware. Gamers lost, nVidia sponsered Assasains Creed. Batman AA is also clearly relevant in guaging what nVidia esteems in it's conduct of it's relationship with developers and game "refinements".

you should just be like me and use nvidia. :twisted:
 

NIGELG

Senior member
Nov 4, 2009
851
31
91
I don't think you understand. I didn't argue about the images. I'm talking about the rendering path. This is crucial for the understanding.



Hate? That's a very strong word, isn't it?
And AMD? No, not AMD itself, but Huddy, and some other PR guys.
Huddy's biggest mistake was that he stabbed a developer friend of mine in the back, in one of his big press releases, published on a large variety of sites.
As a result, the company's reputation was damaged severely, and business was rather problematic in the years that followed.

You see, you can't just do what Huddy/AMD are doing here. In this case it's Ubisoft, a big player, and they already don't exactly have a good reputation. It's not the first time they're involved in shady business... I don't really care about that.
But AMD always takes it out on the developers and the companies when AMD's hardware is 'treated unfairly' according to AMD (read: their hardware is not doing as well as they want in benchmarks... sometimes even when they're actually ahead, the greedy b'stards). This damages the reputation of these companies and the developers involved... which is especially nasty when these developers aren't actually doing what AMD accuses them of (which happened to be the case with my friend).
Basically, Huddy is the scum of the earth for what he does to developers. Don't you understand?
I can't recall nVidia going after the companies/developers directly in such situations. They generally just try to 'fix' it in the drivers, without specifically pointing the finger at the developers. It's just a bit more classy that way, and only nVidia gets hurt if they get caught.
Well I guess this explains a lot then.So much for an unbiased discussion from you.
 

AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
3,979
589
126
I don't think you understand. I didn't argue about the images. I'm talking about the rendering path. This is crucial for the understanding.
This is what I understand, and know. I know that there was no technical reason for ATI hardware to be vendor ID locked out. I tested this myself. You seem to want to talk about the technical aspects of how AA was achieved under DX9. This has been discussed endlessly, and is immaterial.
Hate? That's a very strong word, isn't it?
You use very strong words.

John Fruehe: AMD’s latest and greatest liar

Intel Compiler soap, another episode of AMD fanboy idiocy

Are all AMD fans idiots?

Your vitriol for anything AMD is really obvious, so yes hate would be an appropriate term.

BTW, back when you seemed to think that tessellation was not important at all:

nVidia still has an ace up its sleeve though. They have PhysX. Unlike DirectX 11, PhysX is already being used in current games. It delivers lots of eyecandy, so it’s not that hard to make some impressive demos. It is going to be harder to show off things like tessellation and HDR compression to the general public. HDR compression mainly improves performance… Tessellation can improve detail with less performance impact, but it’s not going to be that obvious, since we already have pretty detailed graphics with per-pixel parallax mapping and self-shadow etc, which already delivers an incredible amount of detail. In fact, people had trouble seeing the difference between Crysis in DirectX 9 and DirectX 10, while Crysis used higher detail meshes in DirectX 10, and more advanced shading.
source

You also said this:

So basically everything I said was right… and everything that everyone else said was wrong.


And you went on to basically say you're the only one with any kind of knowledge, and everyone else is an idiot including Dave Baumann.
And AMD? No, not AMD itself, but Huddy, and some other PR guys.
Huddy's biggest mistake was that he stabbed a developer friend of mine in the back, in one of his big press releases, published on a large variety of sites.
As a result, the company's reputation was damaged severely, and business was rather problematic in the years that followed.
It sounds like you have some anger issues to work out, and are taking it out on anyone that likes or defends AMD products. But thanks for that, your approach makes much more sense now. Sorry to hear what happened to your friend.


Member callouts are not acceptable, ever.

Moderator Idontcare
 
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Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
4,419
0
0
This is what I understand, and know. I know that there was no technical reason for ATI hardware to be vendor ID locked out. I tested this myself. You seem to want to talk about the technical aspects of how AA was achieved under DX9. This has been discussed endlessly, and is immaterial.

You use very strong words.

John Fruehe: AMD’s latest and greatest liar

Intel Compiler soap, another episode of AMD fanboy idiocy

Are all AMD fans idiots?

Your vitriol for anything AMD is really obvious, so yes hate would be an appropriate term.

BTW, back when you seemed to think that tessellation was not important at all:


source

You also said this:

So basically everything I said was right… and everything that everyone else said was wrong.


And you went on to basically say you're the only one with any kind of knowledge, and everyone else is an idiot including Dave Baumann.

It sounds like you have some anger issues to work out, and are taking it out on anyone that likes or defends AMD products. But thanks for that, your approach makes much more sense now. Sorry to hear what happened to your friend.

I am still waiting for your evidence regarding Batman - AA? :hmm:
 

Scali

Banned
Dec 3, 2004
2,495
0
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Well I guess this explains a lot then.So much for an unbiased discussion from you.

Oh no, I'm smart and mature enough to remain perfectly neutral (you should try it sometime).
I only need facts and past statements from Huddy to show what FUD he is spreading. As I said, he's not very good at what he does.
So nice try, but you're left with nothing but an unbased personal attack.
 

AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
3,979
589
126
I am still waiting for your evidence regarding Batman - AA? :hmm:
I was only able to find a few screenshots I did that show AA on and off. Ah well, I guess you are implying that because I can't find all the pics, what I'm saying is false. :cool:

I'll PM you what I have on request.
 

Madcatatlas

Golden Member
Feb 22, 2010
1,155
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looks like this topic has run its course. Anyone saying much beyond this point will probably just get an infraction. Let it go guys.
 

AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
3,979
589
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Actually, is this bench available to anyone? I'd like to try it out. Sorry if I've missed the obvious and it has been posted for download.
 

Scali

Banned
Dec 3, 2004
2,495
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This is what I understand, and know. I know that there was no technical reason for ATI hardware to be vendor ID locked out.

It's not about the ATi side of why the renderpath works, but about the nVidia side.
I don't think you understand.

Your vitriol for anything AMD is really obvious, so yes hate would be an appropriate term.

Now you're being selective. There's plenty of stuff aimed at other companies etc as well.
Eg linux, OpenGL, even nVidia (yes).

BTW, back when you seemed to think that tessellation was not important at all

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying there.
I'm saying that games are already very detailed, so if you want to SHOW tessellation to users (as in, significantly improved IQ), you need to push the triangle count up very high. Exactly the thing that AMD's hardware is struggling to do.
You could say that blog was rather prophetic in that sense.

So basically everything I said was right… and everything that everyone else said was wrong.

Yup, or would you argue that shadowmapping is not THE algorithm for games these days?

And you went on to basically say you're the only one with any kind of knowledge, and everyone else is an idiot including Dave Baumann.

Well yea, Dave Baumann is much like Huddy in that sense. Constantly twisting and turning.

It sounds like you have some anger issues to work out

No I don't, actually. I just want to show everyone how they're being manipulated by PR (not only AMD, but they do the most of it, sadly for them), and loosen the grip that PR has on the general public. Make PR play a bit more by the rules, so we can all benefit.
 

Scali

Banned
Dec 3, 2004
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Instead of being all snarky about it, why don't you just explain it to us?

I want to give you that moment where you go "Aha, so THAT's it!" all by yourself.
Besides, everyone here is so arrogant that they claim they've tested it all and know how it works, right? Prove it.
 

Scali

Banned
Dec 3, 2004
2,495
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Oh how i do agree Scali, PR is like a disease

What I hate even more is fanboys, zealots, and people who think they know everything, acting all arrogant and condescending, when in reality, they don't have a clue what they're talking about. And then going for personal attacks when they've been shown up for the idiots that they are.
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
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I want to give you that moment where you go "Aha, so THAT's it!" all by yourself.
Besides, everyone here is so arrogant that they claim they've tested it all and know how it works, right? Prove it.

I've made no such claims, and I can promise you I never will test it - it's not that important to me.

But it would be easier if you just explained it instead of acting so condescending and pompous.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,938
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Oh no, I'm smart and mature enough to remain perfectly neutral (you should try it sometime).
I only need facts and past statements from Huddy to show what FUD he is spreading. As I said, he's not very good at what he does.
So nice try, but you're left with nothing but an unbased personal attack.

Here's a question about something which has been mentioned before (I stumbled across it while trying to argue against your point that you need lots of tess to show noticable IQ improvement. You might in some areas, but there are places where things can be very obvious, like making round things round, which presumably won't need to be monsterously tessellated to have significant obvious visual improvement. There's a pic somewhere of tessellation "on" in Metro 2033, and a background arch in the scene which is horribly angular because it's not been smoothed out in any way).

It's more specific to HAWX 2 and the possible "better" tessellation code that AMD supposedly offered Ubisoft.

http://www.beyond3d.com/content/reviews/54/9

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=30234077&highlight=metro+2033+tessellation#post30243966
Your post in this thread here, the one below by Janoo and your second follow up post.

One thing worth noting is that between 60 and 80(!)% of these primitives get culled, which doesn't strike us as terribly efficient: you've just hammered the GPU with some heavy tessellation, generated a sea of triangles out of which a huge portion won't be used since they're back facing, or 0 area for example.

Is it possible that the HAWX2 engine is equally inefficient? That way AMD could get a significant boost by not running tessellation on pixels which are going to be culled, improving performance on all GPUs, without reducing IQ.


I'm asking whether such a thing is a possible explanation for how AMD can claim they could improve speed without reducing IQ. As in, HAWX 2 sucks because it "overdoes" tessellation/tessellates useless stuff, and AMD's code ignores the useless bits somehow.
 

Scali

Banned
Dec 3, 2004
2,495
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But it would be easier if you just explained it instead of acting so condescending and pompous.

Why bother? I've explained it plenty of times already. Apparantely nobody listened then, and nobody will listen now. They just listen to what they want to hear.
Condescending and pompous, that's words I'd use to describe the attitude of the people who brought up the Batman:AA issue in this thread in the first place, on how they tested it, and all that.
When you ask a few questions, you quickly punch holes in that overly confident story of theirs, apparently.
 

AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
3,979
589
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Why bother? I've explained it plenty of times already. Apparantely nobody listened then, and nobody will listen now. They just listen to what they want to hear.
Condescending and pompous, that's words I'd use to describe the attitude of the people who brought up the Batman:AA issue in this thread in the first place, on how they tested it, and all that.
When you ask a few questions, you quickly punch holes in that overly confident story of theirs, apparently.
It's always someone else with you. They are condescending, idiots, stupid, pompous, liars, wrong etc. etc.

So let's hear your explanation. I'll listen and learn from it.
 

NIGELG

Senior member
Nov 4, 2009
851
31
91
Oh no, I'm smart and mature enough to remain perfectly neutral (you should try it sometime).
I only need facts and past statements from Huddy to show what FUD he is spreading. As I said, he's not very good at what he does.
So nice try, but you're left with nothing but an unbased personal attack.
Nice try but it's you who are being personal....Huddy shafted your friend you say....so how are you not biased against AMD and Huddy??