Here's what AMD didn't want us to see - HAWX 2 benchmark

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mwmorph

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2004
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Games that I found to have tessellation so far: (just because nvidia might handle tessellation at extrem rates better than amd, doesnt mean they play these games better, since most have relativly low tessellation implimentaion and run it at lower factor tessellaion levels)

Colin McRae Dirt 2.
Alien vs Predator.
Stalker: Call of Pripyat.
Battleforge
Metro 2033
Just Cause 2
Civ5

From your list, games that WONT have tessellation:
Crysis 2 (no tess, its a consol port, PC version will just be able to scale grafics up vs consol)
Diablo 3 (blizzard dont bother with pushing grafics, they do gameplay)
GTA5 (not sure about this one, but suspect it wont, because of consol ports)

>>> No idea about the rest of the titles you mentioned. <<<

Anyone wanna add to the list of games that have tessellation?

From the list, Crysis 2 would be much more likely to have tesselation than Mass Effect 3. Crysis 2's PC engine is DX 11 but the advanced DX11 features have not been show yet AFAIK. Still, Crysis 2 will probably have tesselation.

Mass Effect 2 almost surely will not since it is built on Unreal Engine 3, which is because the designers stated that they wanted all 3 games to be able to run on the exact same computer since the save transfer thing is so much a core of the game.

I am almost sure Guild Wars 2 will not be tessellated.

Hitman 5's teaser trailer showed no tessellation(His head is horribly shaped as always), but it may not be gameplay so it's too early to tell.

Same with the other games listed.
 

Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
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in all likely hood its done on 4x 480 SLI.
Which means your 460 would probably get like 6 fps and a AMD counter card to that, would get like 2-3 fps. Yes its a moot point.

dont worry about tessellation at this point,.... give it a year or two to mature and show up in higher amounts. Right now nvidia fanboys are makeing it out to be much more of a issue than it is.

also in 2 years time when more games start useing more tessellation, guess what? you ll buy another cheap card that at that point is suited for the current level needs of tesselation.

unless you plan on sticking with your 460 for 3-4 years or something, I wouldnt worry about tessellation as a selling point to going nvidia or amd.


Funny, but you miss the point, as Scali already HAS explained.

It's about 500 times better geometry than current games.
Even at 4x480 SLI that is 125 times better geometry than current games for a single GXT480.

So stop spreading false argumentation, thanks.

It's readily available information...if you cared to read the thread and not just try and downplay tessellation...because AMD is behind in performance in that area.
 

Arkadrel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2010
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From what I read when I googled Crysis 2, seems everyone thinks it ll be very consol friendly and all pc will have is just abit of scaleabilty. Consols dont have tessellation, but they might have redone all the models in the game to add it... I just think its VERY unlikely and what I read suggested otherwise.

@Lonbjerg

lets agree to disagree?
I think Scali is overreacting and makeing a mountain of a molehill.
You think Im downplaying the importance of tessellation, because nvidias is slightly better at it.

No one is gonna convince the other part, look at how this threads been.

Some say Image quality is good, as long as your hardware can push it.
Others say push image qualty, let the hardware catch up when it can.

deminishing returns on tessellation/image quality means we wont be seeing high factors of tesellation for along time, reguardless of what nvidia guys seem to think.
 
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RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
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You think Im downplaying the importance of tessellation, because nvidias is slightly better at it.

I agree with you that we won't see high levels of tessellation in games for years to come since current hardware would not able to handle it. However, NV isn't slightly better at it, it's 70&#37; faster at it than an HD5870. HD6970 looks to change that once it launches. :thumbsup:
 

Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
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From what I read when I googled Crysis 2, seems everyone thinks it ll be very consol friendly and all pc will have is just abit of scaleabilty. Consols dont have tessellation, but they might have redone all the models in the game to add it... I just think its VERY unlikely and what I read suggested otherwise.

@Lonbjerg

lets agree to disagree?
I think Scali is overreacting and makeing a mountain of a molehill.
You think Im downplaying the importance of tessellation, because nvidias is slightly better at it.

No one is gonna convince the other part, look at how this threads been.

Some say Image quality is good, as long as your hardware can push it.
Others say push image qualty, let the hardware catch up when it can.

deminishing returns on tessellation/image quality means we wont be seeing high factors of tesellation for along time, reguardless of what nvidia guys seem to think.

It seems to me that you havn't been paying attention, there are no "diminishing" returns...infact proper implemented tessellastion should speed things up, consume less memory and use less busbanwidth...are you sure you are talking about tessellation?
 

Scali

Banned
Dec 3, 2004
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Scali, You keep mentioning Pixar. I seem to recall extremely long rendering times with enough computing power to cause an electrical brown out in a major city. Dx11 and tessellation aren't going to change that. You still have to actually render the polygons and lighting, shadows, physics, etc... at that IQ in real time and we aren't close to that yet.

No, but tessellation is a key point in getting there.
Pixar does everything through tessellation, there is no other way to do what they do. You can't store geometry of the detail they use statically.

If you know that something somebody has said isn't accurate then you can post the proof or your counter argument to show that they are wrong.

I've been doing that for days. By now I can safely say that everything has been said already, and people should just read the threads more closely, follow the links that have been presented, put some effort into it. I don't want to keep repeating myself just because you people are too lazy to read more clearly. Besides, if you didn't read (or understand) it the first time, why would it work the second time? It's a forum, you can re-read what I said as often as you like. I don't need to repeat posts.
 

Scali

Banned
Dec 3, 2004
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If tessellation improves frame rates why does more or less every game you can play currently show frame rate drops when you turn it on? This happends on both amd and nvida cards. Turn on tessellation watch fps drop.

Because they're doing it wrong, as already explained.

why does civ5 run better in dx11 than dx9? because its a better dx, and because the game was developed for dx11 and the cards where too. It doesnt mean that turning on tesselation in civ5 improved frame rates, it just means that dx11 runs better than dx9.

Wrong.
DX9 is still faster than DX10/11 at the same workloads (that's what years of driver-optimizations do for you). I should know, my engine supports all three APIs. DX11 is faster because it works smarter, not harder. In this case through DirectCompute and tessellation.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
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I've been doing that for days. By now I can safely say that everything has been said already, and people should just read the threads more closely, follow the links that have been presented, put some effort into it. I don't want to keep repeating myself just because you people are too lazy to read more clearly. Besides, if you didn't read (or understand) it the first time, why would it work the second time? It's a forum, you can re-read what I said as often as you like. I don't need to repeat posts.

That was more directed at those who didn't understand, or completely understand, what you were saying and rather than admit it and ask you to explain it they gave the old "prove it" rebuttal.
 

n0x1ous

Platinum Member
Sep 9, 2010
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From what I read when I googled Crysis 2, seems everyone thinks it ll be very consol friendly and all pc will have is just abit of scaleabilty. Consols dont have tessellation....

Crysis 2 is a TWIMTBP title and you dont think it will have tesselation? haha thats a good one. If Nv has marketing funds behind the game then they are going to have features that show off their hardware = tesselation in Crysis 2
 

Arkadrel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2010
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nOx1ous they would have to rework models on more or less everything in the game... if you have a small pc use base vs a bigger consol base, why would you do that much extra work when only the pc users would benefit?

Your right though, if it is as you say a TWIMTBPed title, then nvidia will probably be pushing for heavy tessellation. We might see it in game... I just dont think the game developers are eager to do all that extra work for just the pc gamers.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
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nOx1ous they would have to rework models on more or less everything in the game... if you have a small pc use base vs a bigger consol base, why would you do that much extra work when only the pc users would benefit?

Your right though, if it is as you say a TWIMTBPed title, then nvidia will probably be pushing for heavy tessellation. We might see it in game... I just dont think the game developers are eager to do all that extra work for just the pc gamers.

Taking a look at the original Crysis, why on earth would you think that?
 

Arkadrel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2010
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Taking a look at the original Crysis, why on earth would you think that?


Because their sales didnt justify the cost of them makeing the game, dispite how pretty it looked. Thats why they aimed for the consol this time around, they want to make more money. Its very likely that crysis 2 will be easier to run than crysis1 was.

crysis 1 = developed for pc.
crysis 2 = developed for consol.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
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Because their sales didnt justify the cost of them makeing the game, dispite how pretty it looked. Thats why they aimed for the consol this time around, they want to make more money. Its very likely that crysis 2 will be easier to run than crysis1 was.

crysis 1 = developed for pc.
crysis 2 = developed for consol.

Almost every game starts out aimed at consoles today.
 

Scali

Banned
Dec 3, 2004
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Because their sales didnt justify the cost of them makeing the game, dispite how pretty it looked. Thats why they aimed for the consol this time around, they want to make more money. Its very likely that crysis 2 will be easier to run than crysis1 was.

crysis 1 = developed for pc.
crysis 2 = developed for consol.

Crysis 1 was very easy to run, it was extremely scaleable.
Problem is that most gamers want to run everything at max, and ignore all lower settings.
I ran it on an XP1800+ system with a Radeon 9600Pro and still it was quite playable.
 

Rifter

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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I just finished reading this thread, the whole thing every post and link, and i must admit i feel like i should get a award or something for not blowing my frekking head off ten times over by now :)

Scali im stunned you are still responding to this after all the flak and repetition, good job.

Im going to start off by saying while im not a graphics programmer and my knowledge is not on scali's level. But i have read enough and played with enough demo's about tess to have a good grasp of how it works, it has amazed me for years and i am convinced it is going to be a large part of future PC gaming graphics.

This has got fairly heated at times and i can see both points of view over tesselation and will try and give my opinion without throwing another grenade into this thread.

The way i look at it is this, as of TODAY yes there are very few games that use tess at all yet alone push it very far or use it on a large scale or even correctly. I think this is due to it just making it into DX 11 and the fact that its pretty much brand new tech as far as actual games using it so the developers are just starting to learn how to use it correctly and at what levels on what objects. This is going to take some time to work out.

This doesnt however mean its a useless feature, alot of people keep there cards for years and years, look how many people are still running 8xxx series era cards. Within a few years(2-3) tess will be much more widespread than it is right now and the gap in tess performance between Nvidia and ATI is not small its HUGE. This is going to mean that current Nvidia cards are going to have much more longevity as tesselation use goes up.

Perhaps AMD will fix this with the 69xx series maybe not, we will know soon enough.

So really both sides have valid points, the ATI side is saying nothing uses it enough right now to matter and by the time it does in a few years your card is going to be outdated anyways. This is true.

Nvidia i think did jump the gun on tess right now a bit, nothing uses it to the levels that the Nvidia cards can turn out. However perhaps as the HAWX 2 as well as other heavy tess benchmark shows going forward tess is going to matter to gaming and Nvidia clearly has a better handle on it at the moment.

So if you are going to invest in a expensive GPU solution right now and keep it for 2-3 years i think it makes sense to take tess performance into heavy consideration and it should be a big deciding factor in your purchase.

my .02
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
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busydude

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2010
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With NV paying $2mil I will bet Crysis 2 will have Tessellation.

Wow, how fast the times have changed, from PhysX to Tessellation in a few months.

Few days back it was HAWX 2, now Crysis 2?

Does it mean that Nvidia has shifted focus away from PhysX?
 

busydude

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2010
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No, PhysX is one thing and Tessellation another

I am aware of that.

Both can co exist in a game

I am not so sure about that, my memory tells me all the games that have PhysX were based on DX 9. I could be wrong though.

My question was that, just a couple of months back when ever there is a TWIMTBP game, we could safely assume that it has some kind of PhysX implementation, now it seems like the focus of Nvidia has changed.
 

n0x1ous

Platinum Member
Sep 9, 2010
2,572
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Because their sales didnt justify the cost of them makeing the game, dispite how pretty it looked. Thats why they aimed for the consol this time around, they want to make more money. Its very likely that crysis 2 will be easier to run than crysis1 was.

crysis 1 = developed for pc.
crysis 2 = developed for consol.

Do you know how much it cost them to make the game and how much money they made? Regardless of the money, what Crysis did give them is name recognition. Crysis being the graphical benchmark it was/is has catapulted Crytek to a household name. More so then they were from Far Cry.

Nathan Camarillo (Executive Producer of Crysis 2) "we expect to reach a broader pc market while still being the premiere showcase piece for high-end PC rigs"

"Our goal is to surpass Crysis, which to this day is still considered a benchmark for PC gaming and we intend to extend that notoriety with Crysis 2"

Quoted from Nvision issue 5/summer 2010
Its a 14 page feature that includes many comments right from Crytek.

if you get a chance to read the whole article you will get the sense (as you can see from the quotes) that Crytek realizes people expect the absolute state-of-the-art in graphics from them. To me they are more a technology company than a game developer, and i didn't think Crysis 1 was that great of a game, but it was absolutely stunning visually, and I think its safe to say with Crytek's high profile, EA funding and marketing, and Nvidia Dev relations, they have plenty of time, money, and motivation to push specific high end features for PC only and I expect they will.
 
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Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
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I am aware of that.



I am not so sure about that, my memory tells me all the games that have PhysX were based on DX 9. I could be wrong though.

You are wrong
Physx(and APEX) have nothing to do with the DirectX API take eg. Unreal Enigne 3...both DX10 and native PhysX support.

AFAIR Cryostatis were also DX10.
 

notty22

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2010
3,375
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Metro 2033 has both dx11 / physX
It will also bring PC's to their knees, but that OK, its what we need.
Its the exact opposite of the new Star Wars title. Looked like it could be awesome, its locked at 30fps and the menu's look straight from xbox 360.
They appear to not have done 'the work'
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
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Do you know how much it cost them to make the game and how much money they made? Regardless of the money, what Crysis did give them is name recognition. Crysis being the graphical benchmark it was/is has catapulted Crytek to a household name. More so then they were from Far Cry.

Nathan Camarillo (Executive Producer of Crysis 2) "we expect to reach a broader pc market while still being the premiere showcase piece for high-end PC rigs"

"Our goal is to surpass Crysis, which to this day is still considered a benchmark for PC gaming and we intend to extend that notoriety with Crysis 2"

Quoted from Nvision issue 5/summer 2010
Its a 14 page feature that includes many comments right from Crytek.

if you get a chance to read the whole article you will get the sense (as you can see from the quotes) that Crytek realizes people expect the absolute state-of-the-art in graphics from them. To me they are more a technology company than a game developer, and i didn't think Crysis 1 was that great of a game, but it was absolutely stunning visually, and I think its safe to say with Crytek's high profile, EA funding and marketing, and Nvidia Dev relations, they have plenty of time, money, and motivation to push specific high end features for PC only and I expect they will.

I hope they do! Even with the nVidia buyout, I got a Beta driver, a ATI5870+NV 9800GTX+ combo ready to go!

No more straight console ports for the love of kittens please! Give us PC gamers something to be proud of again!