Here Comes The Sun!

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
91
MIT researchers announced they have discovered a feasible, non-polluting way to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. There's not much I can add other than to hope it's the breakthrough they believe it is.

Oh, yeah... I'll add... WOW!!! :sun: :thumbsup: :cool:

MIT researchers use plant energy storage system for solar storage innovation

By Ann Steffora Mutschler, Senior Editor -- Electronic News, 8/1/2008

In what Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) researchers say is a revolutionary leap that could transform solar power from a marginal, boutique alternative into a mainstream energy source, the researchers report they have discovered a way to store energy for use when the sun doesn't shine, thereby overcoming a major barrier to large-scale solar power.

MIT reminded that until now, solar power has been a daytime-only energy source, because storing extra solar energy for later use is prohibitively expensive and grossly inefficient, but its researchers have come upon a simple, inexpensive, highly efficient process for storing solar energy that requires nothing but abundant, non-toxic natural materials, inspired by the photosynthesis performed by plants.

"This is the nirvana of what we've been talking about for years. Solar power has always been a limited, far-off solution. Now we can seriously think about solar power as unlimited and soon," noted MIT's Daniel Nocera, the Henry Dreyfus Professor of Energy at MIT and senior author of a paper describing the work in the July 31 issue of Science, in a statement.

Nocera and Matthew Kanan, a postdoctoral fellow in Nocera's lab developed a process that will allow the sun's energy to be used to split water into hydrogen and oxygen gases, which later may be recombined inside a fuel cell, creating carbon-free electricity to power houses or electric cars, day or night.

The key component in the process is a catalyst -- cobalt metal, phosphate and an electrode, placed in water -- that produces oxygen gas from water, while another catalyst produces hydrogen gas. When electricity -- whether from a photovoltaic cell, a wind turbine or any other source -- runs through the electrode, the cobalt and phosphate form a thin film on the electrode, and oxygen gas is produced, the researchers explained.

Combined with another catalyst, such as platinum, that can produce hydrogen gas from water, the system can duplicate the water splitting reaction that occurs during photosynthesis.

The new catalyst works at room temperature, in neutral pH water, and is easy to set up, Nocera said. "That's why I know this is going to work. It's so easy to implement," he said.

Nocera also said that sunlight has the greatest potential of any power source to solve the world's energy problems, since in one hour, enough sunlight strikes the Earth to provide the entire planet's energy needs for one year.

"This is a major discovery with enormous implications for the future prosperity of humankind. The importance of their discovery cannot be overstated since it opens up the door for developing new technologies for energy production thus reducing our dependence for fossil fuels and addressing the global climate change problem," added James Barber, a leader in the study of photosynthesis, the Ernst Chain Professor of Biochemistry at Imperial College London, and who called the discovery a "giant leap" toward generating clean, carbon-free energy on a massive scale.

More work to do

While this is a good start, the currently available electrolyzers that split water with electricity and are often used industrially, are not suited for artificial photosynthesis because they are very expensive and require a highly basic (non-benign) environment that has little to do with the conditions under which photosynthesis operates, Nocera said.

As such, more engineering work needs to be done to integrate the new scientific discovery into existing photovoltaic systems, but Nocera is confident that such systems will become a reality.

"This is just the beginning. The scientific community is really going to run with this," he added.

Nocera hopes that within 10 years homeowners will be able to power their homes in daylight through photovoltaic cells, while using excess solar energy to produce hydrogen and oxygen to power their own household fuel cell. Electricity-by-wire from a central source could be a thing of the past.

The project is part of the MIT Energy Initiative, a program designed to help transform the global energy system to meet the needs of the future and to help build a bridge to that future by improving today's energy systems.

© 2008, Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Cool. I always have to be somewhat skeptical, but this one has some potential.

If dumb plants can do it, surely we can too.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Hooray for science.

(Remember those middle-Americans that were praying for lower gas prices? I guess these scientists heard their prayers.)
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
1
81
Interesting. Wonder what the efficiency is like. Also, how long does the device last? Are the catalysts consumed any during the reactions?
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
91
Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Wonder what the efficiency is like.

Quoting from the article, "... in one hour, enough sunlight strikes the Earth to provide the entire planet's energy needs for one year." The efficiency wouldn't have to be that great to make it useful, and it can only get better as they develop it.

Also, how long does the device last? Are the catalysts consumed any during the reactions?

By definition a catalyst in aids or enables a chemical reaction, but it is not consumed.

cat·a·lyst
n.
  1. Chemistry A substance, usually used in small amounts relative to the reactants, that modifies and increases the rate of a reaction without being consumed in the process.
  2. One that precipitates a process or event, especially without being involved in or changed by the consequences: "A free press ... has remained ... a vital catalyst to an informed and responsible electorate" Robert O'Neal.
 

blinky8225

Senior member
Nov 23, 2004
564
0
0
Originally posted by: Harvey

By definition a catalyst in aids or enables a chemical reaction, but it is not consumed.

cat·a·lyst
n.
  1. Chemistry A substance, usually used in small amounts relative to the reactants, that modifies and increases the rate of a reaction without being consumed in the process.
  2. One that precipitates a process or event, especially without being involved in or changed by the consequences: "A free press ... has remained ... a vital catalyst to an informed and responsible electorate" Robert O'Neal.


  1. Yes, but catalysts can still wear out or become "poisoned," for reasons that of which researchers are not exactly sure, yet. Many aspects of catalysts and transitions states are still not well understood, but a lot of research is being done in the field. Why do you think the catalytic converter on your car as to be replace after a while?

    The fact that a catalyst can be made of cobalt and phosphate is what is ground-breaking about this research. The rest of the stuff talked about in the article really isn't anything new. Cobalt and phosphate are extremely cheap and would be easy to replace compared to traditional catalysts like palladium.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
91
Originally posted by: blinky8225

Why do you think the catalytic converter on your car as to be replace after a while?

Because of the theives who crawl under your car to steal it and resell it.

Yeah, I know catalysts can wear out, but considering where we've been, this is just great news about a potential, and more importantly, credible breakthrough.

Right now, I'm just feeling too good about it to think about anything that could rain on this parade. :cool:
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,365
14,771
146
Once Chevron and Exxon figure out how to make money on this, we'll see this come to fruition...until then, it'll either be some "pipe-dream" type of technology, or the rights bought by one (or both) of them and hidden away like so many other "gas-saving" devices are rumored to have been.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
91
Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Not possible as so many ATers have said over and over.

Error -- Invalid data.

I don't recall anyone saying it wasn't possible, just that it's difficult, expensive and inefficient using previous methods of separation. The difference is the catalytic reaction that overcomes that inefficiency.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Not possible as so many ATers have said over and over.

Error -- Invalid data.

I don't recall anyone saying it wasn't possible, just that it's difficult, expensive and inefficient using previous methods of separation. The difference is the catalytic reaction that overcomes that inefficiency.

I give you credit for trying up against all the oil apologists in here.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
I was so hoping the corn based ethanol was going to be the solution. But as the price of corn has gone up, its now unfeasible in the US.

Since I foolishly invested all the family fortune in confederate dollars and corn based ethanol, I will have to do the responsible thing, get drunk, stay at home, and don't drive.

Get you a copper kettle, get you a copper coil
Fill it with new made corn mash and never more
you'll toil You'll just lay there by the juniper
while the moon is bright Watch them just a-filling
in the pale moonlight.

Build you a fire with hickory, hickory, ash and
oak Don't use no green or rotten wood, they'll get
you by the smoke You'll just lay there by the
juniper while the moon is bright Watch them just
a-filling in the pale moonlight.

My daddy he made whiskey, my granddaddy he did too
We ain't paid no whiskey tax since 1792 You'll
just lay there by the juniper while the moon is
bright Watch them just a-filling in the pale
moonlight.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Something like that, if accurate, is exactly what is needed to make solar feasible.

I have always said the solution to our energy problems are relatively easy to obtain. Just cut them MIT boys a blank check and they will come up with something.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
91
Originally posted by: dmcowen674

I give you credit for trying up against all the oil apologists in here.

Sorry, Dave. As someone with enough of an engineering background to understand what they're talking about, this makes too much sense. Until someone shoots it down, I'm just going to sit here and enjoy feeling good about the possiblities this research brings.

Even someone as pessimistic as you can't put a turd in this punchbowl... at least for today. :beer: :thumbsup: :cool:
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Saw something about on Slashdot earlier this week. If this turns out to be what they think it is, this could make things interesting. Gotta love those geniuses at MIT. :)
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Electrolytic hydrogen fuel cells have been available for at least a decade. They can use any input electricity to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen. The difference is that the previous catalyst (trade name Nafion) used platinum rather than cheaper metals. This will definitely make the technology less expensive, but it's also not a revolutionary concept.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: dmcowen674

I give you credit for trying up against all the oil apologists in here.

Sorry, Dave. As someone with enough of an engineering background to understand what they're talking about, this makes too much sense. Until someone shoots it down, I'm just going to sit here and enjoy feeling good about the possiblities this research brings.

Even someone as pessimistic as you can't put a turd in this punchbowl... at least for today. :beer: :thumbsup: :cool:

Makes much more sense and from a reputable location than the water powered car down in Fla earlier this year.

 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Electrolytic hydrogen fuel cells have been available for at least a decade. They can use any input electricity to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen. The difference is that the previous catalyst (trade name Nafion) used platinum rather than cheaper metals. This will definitely make the technology less expensive, but it's also not a revolutionary concept.

Considering expense is one of the greatest hurdles to alternate energy (even at $150/bbl, oil is incredibly cheap power) any decreases to price is a big step forward.
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Originally posted by: Harvey
MIT researchers announced they have discovered a feasible, non-polluting way to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. There's not much I can add other than to hope it's the breakthrough they believe it is.

Oh, yeah... I'll add... WOW!!! :sun: :thumbsup: :cool:

MIT researchers use plant energy storage system for solar storage innovation

By Ann Steffora Mutschler, Senior Editor -- Electronic News, 8/1/2008

In what Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) researchers say is a revolutionary leap that could transform solar power from a marginal, boutique alternative into a mainstream energy source, the researchers report they have discovered a way to store energy for use when the sun doesn't shine, thereby overcoming a major barrier to large-scale solar power.

MIT reminded that until now, solar power has been a daytime-only energy source, because storing extra solar energy for later use is prohibitively expensive and grossly inefficient, but its researchers have come upon a simple, inexpensive, highly efficient process for storing solar energy that requires nothing but abundant, non-toxic natural materials, inspired by the photosynthesis performed by plants.

"This is the nirvana of what we've been talking about for years. Solar power has always been a limited, far-off solution. Now we can seriously think about solar power as unlimited and soon," noted MIT's Daniel Nocera, the Henry Dreyfus Professor of Energy at MIT and senior author of a paper describing the work in the July 31 issue of Science, in a statement.

Nocera and Matthew Kanan, a postdoctoral fellow in Nocera's lab developed a process that will allow the sun's energy to be used to split water into hydrogen and oxygen gases, which later may be recombined inside a fuel cell, creating carbon-free electricity to power houses or electric cars, day or night.

The key component in the process is a catalyst -- cobalt metal, phosphate and an electrode, placed in water -- that produces oxygen gas from water, while another catalyst produces hydrogen gas. When electricity -- whether from a photovoltaic cell, a wind turbine or any other source -- runs through the electrode, the cobalt and phosphate form a thin film on the electrode, and oxygen gas is produced, the researchers explained.

Combined with another catalyst, such as platinum, that can produce hydrogen gas from water, the system can duplicate the water splitting reaction that occurs during photosynthesis.

The new catalyst works at room temperature, in neutral pH water, and is easy to set up, Nocera said. "That's why I know this is going to work. It's so easy to implement," he said.

Nocera also said that sunlight has the greatest potential of any power source to solve the world's energy problems, since in one hour, enough sunlight strikes the Earth to provide the entire planet's energy needs for one year.

"This is a major discovery with enormous implications for the future prosperity of humankind. The importance of their discovery cannot be overstated since it opens up the door for developing new technologies for energy production thus reducing our dependence for fossil fuels and addressing the global climate change problem," added James Barber, a leader in the study of photosynthesis, the Ernst Chain Professor of Biochemistry at Imperial College London, and who called the discovery a "giant leap" toward generating clean, carbon-free energy on a massive scale.

More work to do

While this is a good start, the currently available electrolyzers that split water with electricity and are often used industrially, are not suited for artificial photosynthesis because they are very expensive and require a highly basic (non-benign) environment that has little to do with the conditions under which photosynthesis operates, Nocera said.

As such, more engineering work needs to be done to integrate the new scientific discovery into existing photovoltaic systems, but Nocera is confident that such systems will become a reality.

"This is just the beginning. The scientific community is really going to run with this," he added.

Nocera hopes that within 10 years homeowners will be able to power their homes in daylight through photovoltaic cells, while using excess solar energy to produce hydrogen and oxygen to power their own household fuel cell. Electricity-by-wire from a central source could be a thing of the past.

The project is part of the MIT Energy Initiative, a program designed to help transform the global energy system to meet the needs of the future and to help build a bridge to that future by improving today's energy systems.

© 2008, Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc.



The key component in the process is a catalyst -- cobalt metal, phosphate and an electrode, placed in water


cool now the russians and canadians can screw us:D
Worlds top colbalt producers
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Considering expense is one of the greatest hurdles to alternate energy (even at $150/bbl, oil is incredibly cheap power) any decreases to price is a big step forward.
And no one is arguing that. However, the price of the catalyst isn't really what has held this techology back. It is the hesitation to implement the infrastructure, peoples' distrust of hydrogen storage methodologies (largely due to ignorance, thanks to journalism), and myopic policy.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Wow, so you can get oxygen and hydrogen gas from water by puting electricity through it.

Someone had better tell the USN that this is now possible.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: lupi
Wow, so you can get oxygen and hydrogen gas from water by puting electricity through it.

Someone had better tell the USN that this is now possible.

Are you intentionally obtuse or just naturally stupid?
 

nullzero

Senior member
Jan 15, 2005
670
0
0
Horrible idea of taking water and turning into oxygen and hydrogen before we know it we will dewater earth for energy...
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: lupi
Wow, so you can get oxygen and hydrogen gas from water by puting electricity through it.

Someone had better tell the USN that this is now possible.

Are you intentionally obtuse or just naturally stupid?

Just returning the favor.
 

event8horizon

Senior member
Nov 15, 2007
674
0
0
harvey- have u looked into the japanese water car?? i wonder if their "membrane" is anything like what u posted. sounds alittle different but very cool.

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/e...WS_EN/20080613/153276/

or youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrxfMz2eDME

The basic power generation mechanism of the new system is similar to that of a normal fuel cell, which uses hydrogen as a fuel. According to Genepax, the main feature of the new system is that it uses the company's membrane electrode assembly (MEA), which contains a material capable of breaking down water into hydrogen and oxygen through a chemical reaction.
With the new process, the cell needs only water and air, eliminating the need for a hydrogen reformer and high-pressure hydrogen tank. Moreover, the MEA requires no special catalysts, and the required amount of rare metals such as platinum is almost the same as that of existing systems, Genepax said.
Unlike the direct methanol fuel cell (DMFC), which uses methanol as a fuel, the new system does not emit CO2. In addition, it is expected to have a longer life because catalyst degradation (poisoning) caused by CO does not occur on the fuel electrode side. As it has only been slightly more than a year since the company completed the prototype, it plans to collect more data on the product life.