Here comes the spin machine! (Our Take on AMD FX)

[krumme]

The fundamental flaw with the "more cores" strategy is that it generally requires developers to do more to see benefits. Programming is no different than most any other business and as such has to make due with limited budgets, compressed time tables, underskilled and/or inexperienced labor, a lack of priority and resources from management, etc.

This is roughly the same issue as the x86 uarch. It is cheaper and easier for Intel and AMD to throw billions at R&D, fabs, and production and for customers to throw billions purchasing x86 than it is to move away from it on the software end.

Now, as to BD itself... It works. It does everything a CPU is supposed to do. There is nothing you can do on Intel that you can't do on AMD. ATI/Radeon is doing fine. Bobcat and Llano seem to be doing fine in their respective markets. BD will likely do well in the server sector. It just seems to be a bad enthusiast level CPU.

BD obviously doesn't do enough to change that landscape, but AMD has been losing that battle for a while now. On 10/11, if you needed the best gaming CPU, best single-threaded IPC, and/or best multi-threaded performance you bought Intel. On 10/13, you still do, however I believe that the Bobcat (would anyone on this forum still buy Atom?), Llano (AMD is relevant in notebooks finally), and Radeon lines place AMD in a better position today than they have been in years past.

I never expected the BD to be an enthusiast desktop CPU. The 2 alu design made that very clear. It was designed to be a server cpu, hands down. All the expectations for high IPC and good gaming, was nonsense and irational. AMD marketing this as a gaming CPU with idiotic BF3 bm is stupid, just showcasing its really not a gamers cpu.

But I can hardly see the peformance is there for the server market either. As redpriest have shown in optimal situations it can compete with an 12thread i7. But even then, i cant see it winning the market share.

Llano is a different product as it doesnt have a competitor right now. Intel GFX sucks, and the cost advantage of having gpu on die is huge.

Atom - bobcat is another story too, as atom was never meant to compete for the nettop/laptop market. So basicly no product competion here too.

Then add. the importance of Intels huge marketing and selling machine, far outweigt 20% performance disadvantage. Beeing the biggest guys have many advantages, most of the time you dont even have to fight to win

 

[jvroig]

I just don't understand the magnitude of that swing-and-a-miss. Gonna have to let time pass and the smoke to clear on this before I can come to any sensible understanding with much confidence.

This is how I feel, too.

I've wasted quite a time reading through so many Bulldozer articles and forum threads across different forums. I am left with the impression that there certainly must be something effed-up in the current BD implementation in Zambezi. Either they end up releasing an optimizer like their former DCO, or they are just keeping mum about it (the flaw) despite having fixed it for the next iteration (Piledriver?) because talking smack about your own current gen products does not seem to be a good idea.

Whatever the case, I am interested to see how this all plays out. Zambezi is certainly not finding its way to my desktop, and pending reviews that say otherwise, also not in any PC with server duty as well (I'm itching for Interlagos benches already). But I still want to know what happened and caused this epic failure of a launch.

 

[Vdubchaos]

AMD is really losing their mind.

BF3 BETA is the WORSE example they can possibly come up with. It is BETA, BETA that has been stripped down to bare bones (which is very clear as graphics are on par with BC2).

When the game comes out, we shall see the benchmarks.

Besides, it's 1 game out of how many?

 

[GaiaHunter]

AMD is really losing their mind.

BF3 BETA is the WORSE example they can possibly come up with. It is BETA, BETA that has been stripped down to bare bones (which is very clear as graphics are on par with BC2).

When the game comes out, we shall see the benchmarks.

Besides, it's 1 game out of how many?

If the graphics aren't as good as they are going to be in the final release, chances are the game will be GPU bottlenecked (even more?) making the differences between the differebt CPUs virtually nil.

 

[Vdubchaos]

If the graphics aren't as good as they are going to be in the final release, chances are the game will be GPU bottlenecked (even more?) making the differences between the differebt CPUs virtually nil.

Not true, Beta has been stripped down pretty significantly all around.

Also most BF3 Beta benchmarks I've seen do not match up with what "AMD is providing us".

Bottom line, do not comment on performance until FULL GAME RELEASE.

And even if AMD has an edge in BF3, something would not add up.....that's 1 game out of how many?

I smell fish.

I just think it's pathetic for AMD to use BF3 Beta as an example. Perhaps they want people to believe it and buy some CPUs before the game comes out?

Just silly

 

[Olikan]

And even if AMD has an edge in BF3, something would not add up.....that's 1 game out of how many?

all the games with game envolving logo, expect more games next year

 

[Keysplayr]

The new CEO could be the "EXIT" CEO. You know, the CEO a company hires to inflate the worth of the company (top dollar possible for stockholder payoffs) just before dismantling or selling. I would hate to see this happen, though I've seen it happen a few times before including a company I used to work for.

The M.O. is usually coming in guns blazing. Declare a new super aggressive strategy. This lasts under a year.
I really hate to say this, but I think AMD is probably done. I really wish another player or two would come on in and replace them. Buy them, and improve them.

Even with the influx of a billion bucks from Intel and Abu Dhabi money, this is what they deliver. It's a holdover. A time buyer.

 

[StrangerGuy]

I never expected the BD to be an enthusiast desktop CPU. The 2 alu design made that very clear. It was designed to be a server cpu, hands down. All the expectations for high IPC and good gaming, was nonsense and irational. AMD marketing this as a gaming CPU with idiotic BF3 bm is stupid, just showcasing its really not a gamers cpu.

But I can hardly see the peformance is there for the server market either. As redpriest have shown in optimal situations it can compete with an 12thread i7. But even then, i cant see it winning the market share.

Llano is a different product as it doesnt have a competitor right now. Intel GFX sucks, and the cost advantage of having gpu on die is huge.

Atom - bobcat is another story too, as atom was never meant to compete for the nettop/laptop market. So basicly no product competion here too.

Then add. the importance of Intels huge marketing and selling machine, far outweigt 20% performance disadvantage. Beeing the biggest guys have many advantages, most of the time you dont even have to fight to win

That's merely Intel feeding AMD the unprofitable scraps to avoid antitrust lawsuits.

 

[dma0991]

Whenever I do go to AMD's youtube page, it seems very nice and lively compared to Intel's which is more on the technical spectrum. However I can't deny that some videos by AMD showing comparisons are in a way taunting Intel and bringing up false hope out of thin air. The marketing team could at least be more moderate about figures and scale them proportionally with their product.

I do hope that Rory Reed could perform a miracle eventually to bring AMD back up.

 

[Idontcare]

Long time AnandTech Reader and fan here (hi)

I have no horse in this race, I buy what is the fastest stable platform. But I really don't understand how you can even in Jest Defend fraudulent Marketing AMD marketing Videos claiming I980 when it's a I5-2500. And then to go on to say you can't defend nor condone nor hold "feet to fire" an AMD employee person that came on Your Site advertising grossly false IPC claims who is now conveniently silent. Are you serious? As you come from a respected website that prides itself on factual reviews I respectfully am taken back by your dismissive attitude. I appreciate your diplomacy and by all means treat them civil but these claims and people should be taken to task.

When I made those comments I'm obviously speaking for myself. I'm not interested in vengeance, or rage. I'm interested in understanding. Understanding "how", and "why". But I also recognize my own foibles, which is to say that I'm not sure I even understand "what" has actually happened here.

I want to understand what happened, see a bit of a post mortem on all this, before I pull out my jump-to-conclusions mat. I'm not saying forgive and forget, I'm just saying at this time it is not entirely clear (to me) what it is that I should be upset over.

When it comes to people, actual humans and not business entities, there have been very very few times in my life where getting upset and angry with a person turned out to be a winning strategy. I've no desire to take anyone to task until I'm more convinced in my being right to do so.

For now we haven't even heard John's side of the story. This is a guy who staked his reputation on his comments about bulldozer. Yeah we all had our fun with tongue-in-cheek quips about bulldozer going to 11 and so on, but something must have been in error. Not a single one of my interactions with the guy ever set off the "liar ahead" detector.

Not saying I can't be fooled, I'm not special of course I can be fooled, but I'm not ready to be judge jury and executioner here when we haven't even heard anything from the defense.

But without question the damage to reputation and credibility is done. Fool me once blah blah bla...it's all true.

 

[Vdubchaos]

all the games with game envolving logo, expect more games next year

When BF3 is released.....we shall see how AMD does.

Let's leave it at that. AMD doing any kind of benchmarks on the beta is F'in stupid.

 

[zlejedi]

AMD is really losing their mind.

BF3 BETA is the WORSE example they can possibly come up with. It is BETA, BETA that has been stripped down to bare bones (which is very clear as graphics are on par with BC2).

When the game comes out, we shall see the benchmarks.

Besides, it's 1 game out of how many?

That's the only game where they can show any significant gains over intel. So expect to see a lot of it

 

[Vdubchaos]

That's the only game where they can show any significant gains over intel. So expect to see a lot of it

yea a beta hehe

I still cant wait to see full release benchmarks. I really don't believe AMD will be able to top Intel once all the features/graphics are in there.

That would be REALLY sketchy (if they do)

 

[exar333]

When I made those comments I'm obviously speaking for myself. I'm not interested in vengeance, or rage. I'm interested in understanding. Understanding "how", and "why". But I also recognize my own foibles, which is to say that I'm not sure I even understand "what" has actually happened here.

I want to understand what happened, see a bit of a post mortem on all this, before I pull out my jump-to-conclusions mat. I'm not saying forgive and forget, I'm just saying at this time it is not entirely clear (to me) what it is that I should be upset over.

When it comes to people, actual humans and not business entities, there have been very very few times in my life where getting upset and angry with a person turned out to be a winning strategy. I've no desire to take anyone to task until I'm more convinced in my being right to do so.

For now we haven't even heard John's side of the story. This is a guy who staked his reputation on his comments about bulldozer. Yeah we all had our fun with tongue-in-cheek quips about bulldozer going to 11 and so on, but something must have been in error. Not a single one of my interactions with the guy ever set off the "liar ahead" detector.

Not saying I can't be fooled, I'm not special of course I can be fooled, but I'm not ready to be judge jury and executioner here when we haven't even heard anything from the defense.

But without question the damage to reputation and credibility is done. Fool me once blah blah bla...it's all true.

In JFAMD's defense, he didn't state any rediculous claims. He vehemently stated IPC would NOT decrease. Doesn't that sound reasonable? Why would this seem outrageous for a brand-new product?

I think as he knew more and more about issues relating to performance, he stuck to his story. That's just my thoughts on what happened, definitely no proof here. I would like to hear his side of the story, if he comes back to the forum.

 

[GaiaHunter]

yea a beta hehe

I still cant wait to see full release benchmarks. I really don't believe AMD will be able to top Intel once all the features/graphics are in there.

That would be REALLY sketchy (if they do)

Isn't that what some people say about some programs, being optimized to run better on Intel?

For the record I'm not currently planning on buying BD, I haven't bought any AM3+ board waiting for BD and I'm not going to play/buy BF3.

 

[Nemesis 1]

When I made those comments I'm obviously speaking for myself. I'm not interested in vengeance, or rage. I'm interested in understanding. Understanding "how", and "why". But I also recognize my own foibles, which is to say that I'm not sure I even understand "what" has actually happened here.

I want to understand what happened, see a bit of a post mortem on all this, before I pull out my jump-to-conclusions mat. I'm not saying forgive and forget, I'm just saying at this time it is not entirely clear (to me) what it is that I should be upset over.

When it comes to people, actual humans and not business entities, there have been very very few times in my life where getting upset and angry with a person turned out to be a winning strategy. I've no desire to take anyone to task until I'm more convinced in my being right to do so.

For now we haven't even heard John's side of the story. This is a guy who staked his reputation on his comments about bulldozer. Yeah we all had our fun with tongue-in-cheek quips about bulldozer going to 11 and so on, but something must have been in error. Not a single one of my interactions with the guy ever set off the "liar ahead" detector.

Not saying I can't be fooled, I'm not special of course I can be fooled, but I'm not ready to be judge jury and executioner here when we haven't even heard anything from the defense.

But without question the damage to reputation and credibility is done. Fool me once blah blah bla...it's all true.

Interesting. You viewed the picture but didn't comprehind what the artist was tring to capture. So when an expert is called in he says . These brush strokes don't fit the artist previous work . The expert concludes the reason you couldn't comprehind the artist work was because the artist was a fake and lacked the skills of the true artist and couldn't express himself in the forgery.

 

[Nemesis 1]

In JFAMD's defense, he didn't state any rediculous claims. He vehemently stated IPC would NOT decrease. Doesn't that sound reasonable? Why would this seem outrageous for a brand-new product?

I think as he knew more and more about issues relating to performance, he stuck to his story. That's just my thoughts on what happened, definitely no proof here. I would like to hear his side of the story, if he comes back to the forum.

Problem being AMD new in dec. 2010. Check my post for dec . What I said about BD/BS in dec. I believe 1or 2 weeks latter Dirk got canned. JF new or he is placed to high in the companies payroll. I new in dec. along with many others. JF plain and simple LIED. But it was I he called a liar . I got those post saved now . This isn't over with JF and me that includes AMD . I have documented everthing. He crossed a legal boundry . Now its time to pay.

 

[Riek]

Problem being AMD new in dec. 2010. Check my post for dec . What I said about BD/BS in dec. I believe 1or 2 weeks latter Dirk got canned. JF new or he is placed to high in the companies payroll. I new in dec. along with many others. JF plain and simple LIED. But it was I he called a liar . I got those post saved now . This isn't over with JF and me that includes AMD . I have documented everthing. He crossed a legal boundry . Now its time to pay.

Good luck trying that... given the way you present your post and how offensive you are.... the only one who will look like the bigger idiot will be you.

Also gambling (which is what you did, so did many others) might be illegal depending on where you live...

 

[Nemesis 1]

Oh. My legal ground is solid. Offensive in what way . The truth can be hard. But the truth is in fact the truth. Gambling . That would be a hard case to prove . considering all our videos.

 

[SlowSpyder]

When BF3 is released.....we shall see how AMD does.

Let's leave it at that. AMD doing any kind of benchmarks on the beta is F'in stupid.

Would you expect them to use benches of Marble Maddness or the available beta of one of the most anticipated games of the year?

What confuses me is why JFAMD would tell us all that IPC goes up. What is the point of deceiving there knowing that at launch he credibility would be gone. Infact, that should probably make it to our sigs.

 

[JustMe21]

From what I've read on Bulldozer, not what people have said, I expected single thread processes to be somehwat slower then Phenom II but multithreaded performance to be better. Granted, we understand that Windows 7 doesn't handle thread proccesses as efficiently as AMD would like for Bulldozer but overall, it does do well. Also, there is also the issue of Intel's compiler being used that only optimizes for Intel. And figure that dropping old instruction sets like 3DNow could impact some performance as well.

As I said before, I consider the FX-8150 essentially a 4 core with 4 hyperthreading on steroids because it's about 60% more efficient than Intel's hyperthreading so I'd be upset if a 12-core Bulldozer got taken by a 1100T but I can understand it beating an FX-8150.

As for why not shrink and improve Phenom II, they did and it's called Llano.

 

[Idontcare]

Problem being AMD new in dec. 2010. Check my post for dec . What I said about BD/BS in dec. I believe 1or 2 weeks latter Dirk got canned. JF new or he is placed to high in the companies payroll. I new in dec. along with many others. JF plain and simple LIED. But it was I he called a liar . I got those post saved now . This isn't over with JF and me that includes AMD . I have documented everthing. He crossed a legal boundry . Now its time to pay.

Oh. My legal ground is solid. Offensive in what way . The truth can be hard. But the truth is in fact the truth. Gambling . That would be a hard case to prove . considering all our videos.

Nemesis, the innuendo is unproductive.

You got a case to make then make it, not this BS of "well there are these posts, somewhere, if you want proof you'll have to go find them, I have them saved but apparently not accessible otherwise I'd link them up in this very post".

The path you are taking here is nearly indistinguishable from that of trolling. Lest you wish to bring such judgement upon yourself, I'd be backing off the baseless accusations and either make them "based on evidence" or simply not stated at all.

Credibility matters in technical forums, but being respectful and civil matters even more. If you can't conduct yourself in a civil and respectful manner while discussing the matter of another's credibility then you will find yourself crossing a line and running afoul the posting guidelines.

This is not a case where two wrongs make a right.

 

[Nemesis 1]

From what I've read on Bulldozer, not what people have said, I expected single thread processes to be somehwat slower then Phenom II but multithreaded performance to be better. Granted, we understand that Windows 7 doesn't handle thread proccesses as efficiently as AMD would like for Bulldozer but overall, it does do well. Also, there is also the issue of Intel's compiler being used that only optimizes for Intel. And figure that dropping old instruction sets like 3DNow could impact some performance as well.

As I said before, I consider the FX-8150 essentially a 4 core with 4 hyperthreading on steroids because it's about 60% more efficient than Intel's hyperthreading so I'd be upset if a 12-core Bulldozer got taken by a 1100T but I can understand it beating an FX-8150.

As for why not shrink and improve Phenom II, they did and it's called Llano.

I understand your point of view . I been on that side of the fence. P4c against AMD64. The P4 was the same except it beat AMD 64 more than BD does SB when it comes to multi threads. But AMD64 was what 20% faster than P4C in single threaded apps.

So I do understand how you feel . Someone look at ATs article on the intel AMD settlement . As I recall there was something in what AT printed that bothered me . Something about AMD conseding the high end market to intel . I was pretty sick at the time so I may not have comprehended what was stated . The thing I found odd was no topic here on that subject.

 

[lifeblood]

In our design considerations, AMD focused on applications and environments that we believe our customers use – and which we expect them to use in the future. The architecture focuses on high-frequency and resource sharing to achieve optimal throughput and speed in next generation applications and high-resolution gaming.

So AMD created BD, not for todays Apps, but future apps. Ok, I can understand that. If they think their module/core architecture is superior and can give real benefits to the user, I'm all for it. But in order for this to work you need the software. AMD should have been working on MS to bring out a Win7 scheduler patch at launch and not wait for Win8. They should have worked with all the other vendors whose software would benefit from the new design and have patches for them as well. Maybe not even patches to take advantage of everything, but at least some things.

nVidia once described itself as a software, not a hardware company. AMD would do well to learn that lesson and work better with software vendors to support their hardware.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Nemesis, the innuendo is unproductive.

You got a case to make then make it, not this BS of "well there are these posts, somewhere, if you want proof you'll have to go find them, I have them saved but apparently not accessible otherwise I'd link them up in this very post".

The path you are taking here is nearly indistinguishable from that of trolling. Lest you wish to bring such judgement upon yourself, I'd be backing off the baseless accusations and either make them "based on evidence" or simply not stated at all.

Credibility matters in technical forums, but being respectful and civil matters even more. If you can't conduct yourself in a civil and respectful manner while discussing the matter of another's credibility then you will find yourself crossing a line and running afoul the posting guidelines.

This is not a case where two wrongs make a right.

Your right. I am done here . its been a pleasure. You guys take care and watch out that the truth doesn't set you free or you end up like me . According to what I just read . There be no place left in this world for truth . Bye guys be safe live long and die well.

Good bye Nemesis 1