Help with motion blur

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Xarick

Golden Member
May 17, 2006
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So here is my issue. I have a 24" display. I upgraded from a 19" I got an h243h acer that has 2ms response. I read tons of reviews and all gave it high marks and said no ghosting. But when I play games like bioshock 2 and newly I just started fallout 3 whenever I strafe or turn things get blurry. Not horrible blurry, but strafing fast means that text becomes blurry until I stop. Most things become blurry. Understand it is a very slight blur, but enough that it kinda annoys me when there is a large writing on the wall. I can tell what is says, but hate the lack of clarity.
What am I experiencing here?
 
ViRGE

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
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You'll never get rid of motion blur completely on an LCD; it's inherent in the technology. But you should be able to reduce it to the point where the vast majority of people will never notice it.

Is it just on those games? Some games implement motion blur on purpose. There are some programs you can use for testing this, although their names escape me at the moment.
 
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Xarick

Golden Member
May 17, 2006
1,199
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I have tested it.. and it comes out pretty good.. I don't know that it would bug most people. Just for me the the blur effect when I am strafing is noticeable. Oddly in some games like l4d2 or counter strike I don't even notice it. It is usually in far more detailed games that I notice it because things don't stay crisp when you strafe or turn. I did go to frys and try out some games on asus monitors and noticed it there as well. I even hooked up to my plasma tv and there it is far less and far more tolerable to me. I didn't bug me at all on my 19" hans-g cheapy monitor. Don't know if that is because of the size or not.
 
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zagood

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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Bioshock 2 - disable High Detail Post Processing.
Fallout 3 - try to play with SetMotionBlur in the INI file.
 
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NoQuarter

Golden Member
Jan 1, 2001
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I notice the same thing on my LCD monitors. Even my 2ms Asus one has the same problem. It's the big reason some people still use CRT's.. when you play an FPS on an LCD it's a lot of move - refocus - move - refocus, because you have to stop the screen for a split second to let the blur go away long enough to see what is happening in detail.

I have a plasma TV too but never paid attention to that on there since I rarely game on it, I do know plasma screens have an internal refresh rate of 600Hz which should negate that motion blur. I bet the 120hz LCD monitors (true 120hz not the fake 120hz TV's) don't have as big a problem with it either.
 
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Xarick

Golden Member
May 17, 2006
1,199
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It may be that increasing the size of my monitor has made it more noticeable for me. I can live with it I would just prefer clarity at all times.
 
taltamir

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
Xarick said:
So here is my issue. I have a 24" display. I upgraded from a 19" I got an h243h acer that has 2ms response. I read tons of reviews and all gave it high marks and said no ghosting. But when I play games like bioshock 2 and newly I just started fallout 3 whenever I strafe or turn things get blurry. Not horrible blurry, but strafing fast means that text becomes blurry until I stop. Most things become blurry. Understand it is a very slight blur, but enough that it kinda annoys me when there is a large writing on the wall. I can tell what is says, but hate the lack of clarity.
What am I experiencing here?
Click to expand...

Are you sure it isn't the motion blur special effect? one of the stupidest thing to ever be implemented, it is found in a large number of games today. You need to find out how to disable it on a game by game basis... rarely there is an in game graphic option to turn it off, sometimes there is a command line argument, rarely you need modified files (which can be found online, just google "disable motion blur <game name>"

The logic that the idiots who implement it use is "games look like you have an HD camera floating 5 feet off the ground, human eyes are not HD camera and sometimes are subject to motion blur and other issues, so we implemented artificial motion blur to represent it and provide a more realistic and immersive experience"...

Which is pretty damn stupid considering that when you turn your head you instinctively blink to avoid it (which you don't in a game so you get horrible motion blur), and IRL you cannot run fast enough to produce motion blur (which you do in those games whenever you move), and if you are in a vehicle that causes motion blur, only the closest area would be blurred; aka, sit in a car that is going 60 miles an hour and look out the window straight down, the asphalt would be blurred (in those games the entire screen is blurred though)...

basically its this pseudo realism that makes everything brown, too much shadows that don't properly account for light diffusion, and with too much bloom so it burns out your retina... basically it is super unrealistic.
http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=224

PS. what was your 19 inch display?
 
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WaitingForNehalem

WaitingForNehalem

Platinum Member
Aug 24, 2008
2,497
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NoQuarter said:
I notice the same thing on my LCD monitors. Even my 2ms Asus one has the same problem. It's the big reason some people still use CRT's.. when you play an FPS on an LCD it's a lot of move - refocus - move - refocus, because you have to stop the screen for a split second to let the blur go away long enough to see what is happening in detail.

I have a plasma TV too but never paid attention to that on there since I rarely game on it, I do know plasma screens have an internal refresh rate of 600Hz which should negate that motion blur. I bet the 120hz LCD monitors (true 120hz not the fake 120hz TV's) don't have as big a problem with it either.
Click to expand...

Plasmas do not have 600Hz refresh rate.
 
taltamir

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
I think he is referring to the ms delay... there are 1000 ms per second. a 2ms black to white to black display could thus, in theory, change from black to white to black again 500 times per second, assuming non stop changing back and forth...

the thing is, that is not the refresh rate. And if it was 600 that would be 1.67ms delay. (I am not sure if it is accurate to say that is delay on plasma, I am not too familiar with plasma tech as it was always too expensive for me to bother with)
Keep in mind that the rate at which pixels change their color is actually faster than that because they are not going from black to white to black (or green to green as is now often measured). On the other hand, advertised values are often straight out lies, which more then counteracts that.

BTW, LCDs in fact do not have a refresh rate PERIOD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refresh_rate
Only CRTs have a refresh rate (along with a frame rate), an LCD has a frame rate and a delay, but not a refresh rate.

Your 60Hz display has a frame rate of 60 (it gets 60 whole frames per second), the delay is how quickly the pixels change from whatever color they currently have to the colors that they should be for the next frame. The color is then held without refreshing for the duration of the entire frame.
 
WaitingForNehalem

WaitingForNehalem

Platinum Member
Aug 24, 2008
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Most plasmas have a 480Hz or 600Hz sub-field drive while some Pioneer plasmas offered an 840Hz sub-field drive. They don't have motion blur due to them using phosphors like a CRT does. The liquid crystal in a LCD can't physically switch fast enough and creates motion blur.

All plasmas flash each frame on the screen several times as part of their basic operation&#8212;in many cases, each frame is flashed on the screen eight times in 1/60 of a second, which equates to 480Hz sub-field drive. The new models flash each frame 10 times in 1/60 of a second for a 600Hz sub-field drive, which improves motion detail and color gradations.
Click to expand...
http://www.hometheatermag.com/news/panasonic_2009_line_show/
 
taltamir

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
WaitingForNehalem said:
Most plasmas have a 480Hz or 600Hz sub-field drive while some Pioneer plasmas offered an 840Hz sub-field drive. They don't have motion blur due to them using phosphors like a CRT does. The liquid crystal in a LCD can't physically switch fast enough and creates motion blur.
Click to expand...

its called ghosting, motion blur is an entirely different thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_blur
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghosting

Likewise refresh rate is something that only exists in CRT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refresh_rate
While what LCD suffer from is response time (CRTs have a response time, its just much better than an LCD): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_time_(technology) EX: the op bought an LCD with advertised 2ms response time
Both technologies use a frame rate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rate EX: Most displays get 60Hz frame rate (60 cycles/second, aka, 60FPS)

What is a "sub-field drive"?
The thing is, LCD is a CONSTANT light source which changes color, CRTs need constant refreshing.
You can see the color alteration of the constantly on LCD (which has no flicker or refresh rate), and you can see the refreshing and the resulting flicker of the CRT... Or at least, I can see all that, I can also see the screen gate effect of any LCD I ever used.
All that being said, I still think LCDs are vastly superior to CRTs... CRTs have tearing just like LCD do, CRT has flicker and refresh issues which LCDs do not, CRTs have wobble which LCDs do not, CRTs have uneven "pixels" and screen shape, always! (you had to manually align the screen to make it as square as possible and as non deformed pixels as possible, but it was never perfect and always bothered me)... CRTs are loud (require fan), need degaussing, run hot and are power hogs...
CRTs do have the big advantage of not having a native resolution... the non native resolutions in LCDs look terrible...

So all in all, I much prefer LCDs to CRTs with all their flaws... so does the vast majority of the population...

Plasma? Plasma's greatest problem is that it violates your wallet. that and burn in... and I am sure some other issues... but mostly its money.
There is, however, such a thing as a perfect display... its called OLED http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLED
 
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taltamir

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
blanketyblank said:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Samsung+...=1218175322173

it may not be refresh rate, but plasmas are advertised as 600 Hz subfield motion drive.
I think it's just marketing drivel to point out how plasmas stomp on LCDs in terms of motion playback, but that's probably what he's talking about.
Click to expand...

That would be a 1.67ms response time (advertised)... the OP's supposed LCD gets 2ms (500Hz subfield drive to use their made up term that nobody ever used before)

I am sure both figures are exaggerated.

I decided this warrants it's own thread: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=29984539#post29984539
There I explain exactly what the terms mean.
 
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NoQuarter

Golden Member
Jan 1, 2001
1,006
0
76
taltamir said:
That would be a 1.67ms response time (advertised)... the OP's supposed LCD gets 2ms (500Hz subfield drive to use their made up term that nobody ever used before)

I am sure both figures are exaggerated.

I decided this warrants it's own thread: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=29984539#post29984539
There I explain exactly what the terms mean.
Click to expand...

Response time is how long it takes for the pixel to adapt color though and that's what causes the blur/ghosting. Since the phosphors themselves have something like a 0.001ms "response time", ie they switch colors instantaneously they have no ghosting/motion blur. I suppose the refresh rate or subfield drive or whatever in plasmas is pretty irrelevant since the phosphors are instantaneous and the refresh rate/subfield drive is actually just keeping them lit up.

LCD's still have ghosting even at 2ms grey to grey, I can see it on all 3 of mine. I only believed the 120hz LCD's would have reduced ghosting because the pixels get updated more often meaning more intermediary frames to add some clarity, and because 120hz LCD's by necessity will have very fast response times.
 
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