Help with building a CAD System

[SolidEd]

First of all, this is my first post here, pleasure to meet you all.
I found this place by searching the intrawebs for CAD specific/recommended hardware and out of all the other forums that popped up with these types of dicussions this seems to be the most experienced and knowledgeable.
I've done a search of CAD related tropics here and read the few posts that popped up but I hope that you guys can further help me.

First, I am not of a CAD background (I'm a EE). I was promoted into a position that oversees the documentation department and really learned hands on and now I spend about 95% of my time doing CAD/3D modeling. The previous "regimes" here weren't really knowledgeable about hardware/software so the equipment we have here is basically regular PC's with gaming video cards and a little extra memory from other general use pc's. I have finally convinced the powers that be that our computing needs are different from everyone elses here and so now I have the fun task of researching and recommending new hardware/equipment. I really want to suggest that we upgrade for the long term, in otherwords spend the money to not only catch up with current technologies but be on par for the next couple of years rather than upgrading a piece here and there that will need to be upgraded again because of obsolete technologies. Price is a concern here. I'm not nescessarily looking for the cheapest solutions (although cheap+good performance is obviosuly good) but I also don't think that I'll get approval for $2000+ video cards or $10,000 PC workstations

Current specs
Software - Solid Edge

PC
MOBO - Intel Desktop board d865gbf
RAM - 1.5GB DDR 400
CPU - 2.6GHZ P4
Video Card - Nvidia Quadro FX 400/500 PCI 128MB (I actually had onboard video before I bought this one. The other CAD guys here are using a Gforce4 MX440.)
HD- Maxtor 6E040L0
OS - Windows XP
Monitor - Syncmaster 955 DF 19"

All drawings are stored on a network directory, don't know servers or networks specs but I am sure they are also a factor in performance (super long wait time on loads) so I also want to look into what to recommend for that (local server with gigabit ethernet?).

What I've seen recommended so far from reading this and other forums

HD- SATA
CPU ? Athlon Dual cores
Video Card ? CAD specific, Quadro
RAM ? 2GB fast speed
Monitor (most likely looking at dual LCD's)- .25 or less pixel pitch, at least 1600x1200 max resolution

Can you guys enlighten me a bit more on what other things are important for a good CAD setup? I saw a thread here where a guy is basically doing the same thing I am and he outlined the components and cost to about $1500, is this a good setup/guide (sorry I didn't copy the authors name)?

ASUS A8N-SLI Motherboard
AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+
Thermaltake RX Copper Heatsink (CL-P0296)
CORSAIR ValueSelect 512MB (x3 for 1.5GB)
MSI Gefroce 7600GS NX7600GX-T2D256E
Seagate Barracuda 7200.9 80GB SATA (Check out the Linux Server thread, that has 0.9TB for my storage needs)
Plextor PX-755SA SATA DVD-RW
Antex TX640B Case w/400W Smart Power
Dual Viewsonic VA1912 19" LCD Widescreen
Plextor PX-AV100U (For Video Input from external VCR, TV, and DVD)

While doing searching I found the Matrox site and found that they make some CAD specific video cards. they seem moderately priced, does anyone have some feedback on how good or bad they are? The reviews for it here on the Video section were mostly geared toward gamers.

Any other help/insight you guys can provide will be greatly welcomed

Thanks in Advance

Ed


Edit: I also want to add that I am going to have to justify and persuade the powersthat be to approve the purchase of any new parts, so I also want and need to understand why anything that I choose is better that a cheaper alternative or what we currently have.

 

[Howard]

Dell 20" 2007FP - $359 before coupon(s)/tax/shipping/rebate - bigger is better, I don't see that IQ is a factor

PNY Quadro FX 1400 - $440, free shipping
review

Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 - $314, free shipping
review

Since it'll be part of a workstation, the mobo shouldn't need to have any OCing options; it just has to be stable. I don't think the cheapest Intel board would give you any problems, but you can always go for a server-class board for better reliability and support.

2GB of memory, at least.

EDIT: Keep the 19" CRT as a secondary.

 

[SolidEd]

thanks

I actually called Dell and another local CAD reseller to get quotes on CAD specific systems just to compare.

The Dell 20" 2007FP is comporable in specs and price to the Samsung 204b which I had been looking at. I've heard good things about Dell LCD's, but also saw good reviews about the 204b. Anything else I should consider to go one way or the other?

 

[SolidEd]

I hadn't even thought about power supplies. Are there any specifics I should take into heavy consideration?

 

[Ayah]

Originally posted by: SolidEd
I hadn't even thought about power supplies. Are there any specifics I should take into heavy consideration?

Reliable power supplies which can run with a heavy load for long periods would be a good choice. Just pick from a large quality manufacturer.

 

[mfs378]

Don't fill three memory slots - use either 2 or 4. Otherwise your memory won't run in dual-channel mode, and it will be half as fast.

 

[SolidEd]

What do you guys think of this quote from Dell for $927? The video card definatley doesn't look right, but how about the rest?

Base Unit:
Dimension E521,Athlon 64 X2 3800+ (2.00GHz, 512Kx2) (222-5668)

Memory:
2GB DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz (311-6581)

Keyboard:
Dell USB Keyboard (310-8025)

Monitor:
Video ready w/o Monitor, DIM X2 (320-5179)

Video Card:
256MB ATI Radeon X1300 Pro (320-5089)

Hard Drive:
160GB SATA II Hard Drive (7200RPM) (341-3292)

Floppy Disk Drive:
No Floppy Drive Requested (341-4028)

Operating System:
Microsoft Windows XP Professional,Service Pack 2, English (420-4838)

Operating System:
Windows Media Player 10 (420-4927)

Operating System:
Dell Direct Download (420-5477)

Operating System:
Internet Search and Portal (420-5769)

Operating System:
Image Restore (412-0688)

Operating System:
Dell Support (412-0911)

Operating System:
Dell Owners Manual installed on your system,click on icon after system set-up to access (463-2282)

Operating System:
Backup media for XP Pro Dimension E521 (310-8549)

Mouse:
Dell USB 2-button mouse (310-7965)

NIC:
Integrated NIC card (430-0412)

Modem:
No modem requested for Dell Dimension (313-3137)

TBU:
Adobe Acrobat Reader 7.0 (412-0914)

CD-ROM or DVD-ROM Drive:
16X DVD-Rom Drive (313-4580)

CD-ROM or DVD-ROM Drive:
Sonic Cineplayer (420-6399)

Sound Card:
Integrated Audio (313-2758)

Speakers:
Dell A225 Speakers (313-4257)

Bundled Software:
MS Works 8.5 Plus Office Trial (412-0912)

Factory Installed Software:
Network Associates McAfee 7.0,English,90-day Trial (412-0850)

Feature
Music Match 10.1 Basic with 7 days OnDemand (412-0813)

Feature
Paint Shop Photo Album 6.0 Starter Edition (412-0845)

Service:
Soft Contracts - Qualxserve (412-0359)

Service:
Warranty Support,3 Year Extended (900-9773)

Service:
Dell Hardware Warranty PlusOnsite Service, Initial Year (985-1318)

Service:
Type 3 Contract - Next Business Day Parts and Labor On-Site Response, Initial Year (980-3350)

Service:
Dell Hardware Warranty PlusOnsite Service, Extended Year (985-1319)

Service:
Type 3 Contract - Next Business Day Parts and Labor On-Site Response, 3YR Extended (950-7363)

Service:
Warranty Support,Initial Year (960-2800)

Misc:
AOL BSD/SMB (412-0586)

 

[dfuze]

I wouldn't use the 256MB ATI Radeon X1300 Pro (320-5089) video card because as I have read, it's a 3d card, not set up to handle 2d as well. I have a pc here at work that is set up to handle CAD (we use Unigraphics NX2 here) and the video card is an Nvidia Quadro FX 1300. Not sure of the price, but knowing this place, it can't be that expensive!

 

[SolidEd]

I got another quote from them for a beefier machine. I think the last guy wasn't that knowledgeable about CAD specific PC's. This is about $2,300 per system, no monitors.

Base Unit:
Dell Precision 390 ConvertibleMiniTower,PC Processor E6400 2.13GHz, 1066, 2MB L2 DC/VT (222-3399)

Processor:
Mini-Tower Chassis Configuration, Dell Precision 390 (311-6070)

Memory:
2GB, 667MHz, DDR2 ECC SDRAM Memory, 2X1GB, Dell Precision 380/390 (311-5136)

Keyboard:
Entry Level, USB, No Hot Keys keyboards, Dell PrecisionWorkstations (310-7949)

Monitor:
Monitor Option-None (320-3316)

Video Card:
nVidia,Quadro FX 3450,256MB dual VGA or DVI, Graphics CardDell Precision X90 (320-4938)

Hard Drive:
80GB Serial ATA, 10K RPM HardDrive with 16MB DataBurst Cache, Precision 380 (341-3683)

Hard Drive Controller:
C1- All SATA Hard Drives Non- RAID for 1 Hard Drive Dell Precision 390 (341-3628)

Floppy Disk Drive:
3.5inch,1.44MB,Floppy Drive Dell Precision 390, Factory Install (341-3624)

Operating System:
WINDOWS XP PRO SP2, with MediaDell Precision,English Factory Install (420-4860)

Mouse:
Dell USB 5-Button Premium Optical Mouse with Scroll for Dell Precision (310-8224)

CD-ROM or DVD-ROM Drive:
48X/32XCDRW AND 16XDVD+/-RW w/Cyberlink Power DVD,Roxio Digital Creator Dell Edition Dell Precision X90 (313-4283)

 

[Operandi]

CAD to me = workstation. Workstation = means reliability and stability are paramount.

The Dell Precision is probably pretty good but it doesn?t seem like particularly great deal. I'm sure it would be possible to build something better for a similar or better price point. That is unless you set on going with a big OEM vs. building it yourself.

 

[bamacre]

The Precision 390 is simply an awesome machine, period. I love them. You should definitely consider it if you don't end up building one.

 

[acole1]

There is a wonderfull place called Dell.com where you can put together a Dell "Precision" for ~$5,000 (they are very flexible on price) and it will work great for your CAD work!

 

[SolidEd]

Originally posted by: Operandi
CAD to me = workstation. Workstation = means reliability and stability are paramount.

The Dell Precision is probably pretty good but it doesn?t seem like particularly great deal. I'm sure it would be possible to build something better for a similar or better price point. That is unless you set on going with a big OEM vs. building it yourself.

I was mostly using them for the quotes to be able to present different prices and options when I propose this to my higher ups. I have to admit though that I like their warranty, specially the 4 hour response, on site service. I'm a man of convinience. I guess it'll also depend on what price range I get approved for.

 

[kornphlake]

Look at the 3Dlabs video cards as well, if they are supported by solidedge. I've got one that my dad got from a scrap bin where he works. I've started using it for SolidWorks and it's okay, I've only got 512mb RAM on my home system so I can't be sure if it's RAM or the video card that causes a little bit of delay. I checked on the cost of the same card new and it was about $140, which is pretty cheap even for a consumer level card.

Contrary to what others may say I'd reccomend Xeon processors, you'll get a lot more stability from a high end processor and high end mobo. The last thing you want is to work 3 hours on a model and have the system crash.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: acole1
There is a wonderfull place called Dell.com where you can put together a Dell "Precision" for ~$5,000 (they are very flexible on price) and it will work great for your CAD work!

There's an even better place called delloutlet.com.

 

[Operandi]

This would be my foundation for a high-end work station.

Motherboard: Intel BOXD975XBXLKR Intel makes some of the best boards around. Top quality components all around and always passively cooled.
CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 A good compromize between money and performance.
PSU: Seasonic S12 380 One of the best PSUs you can buy. Very efficient, tight voltage regulation (5-3%), high quality Japanese capacitors, and nearly silent.
Case: iStarUSA Nitro Ax S-10000B Tons of room and built like a tank, everything a workstation case shoudl be.
GPU: PNY Quadro FX1500 I'm not an expert on pro level GPUs but I think the higher-end 3D design programs benefit enough to justify the cost.
RAM: 2GB Corsair ValueSelect Depending on application needs you may/maynot want more.

The above is obviously not a complete system but what I consider to be the most important components, filling in the rest should be pretty easy.

 

[pkme2]

Here a link to another thread. The person was building a video editing rig, very similiar to what you're building. It can be adapted to CAD also.
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=27&threadid=1944832
Hope this helps.

 

[gsellis]

Originally posted by: acole1
There is a wonderfull place called Dell.com where you can put together a Dell "Precision" for ~$5,000 (they are very flexible on price) and it will work great for your CAD work!

QFT. Plus, you can get warranty service in less than a day. Also, go with the workstation graphics card over a gamer card for graphics. CAD/3D apps built for these and vice versa. While they may seem slower on paper, they are not inside the applications. Some gamer cards may not even do some functions while the 'slower' Quadro or FireGL will.

The HP workstations are fairly competitive with the Dells.

So, while there is a premium from buying from Dell over building your own, Dell supports it. They put on OS on it, have support for it, and can repair it. This is a value to a business in that you do not also need to do tech support. Since these are business purchases, tech support is in the US too.

 

[wwswimming]

http://users.tns.net/~equity/ztutoriaLz/workstation.htm

here's a description of some CAD & 3D workstations that i use. most of them are 1 or 2 years old.

what level of detail are your models ? at one corporate job i had a dual Xeon 1 GHz Dell with
an ATI FireGL card, sufficient to model a backplane with 5000+ mixed RF, digital, and power
nodes.

you can buy a boatload of workstation these days for $1K.

 

[pkme2]

Check eBay for cards.

Christmas comes a little earlier this rear.

 

[SolidEd]

Originally posted by: gsellis
So, while there is a premium from buying from Dell over building your own, Dell supports it. They put on OS on it, have support for it, and can repair it. This is a value to a business in that you do not also need to do tech support. Since these are business purchases, tech support is in the US too.

This is exactly the way I'm looking at it.

Got another quote today for a very similar system as the last dell I posted (I actually sent them that list components and told them to quote it for me) for about $600 cheaper. However, there is some support that Dell provides that doesn't come with the cheaper system so in the end we'll have to weigh that out.

I am waiting for one more quote then I have to put all this together in some sort of "educational" proposal. I have to not only explain why these CAD specific work stations are better than using a general use PC's with extra RAM and a gaming video card (which is basically what we use now) but I also have to try to quantify how much more productive/efficient this is going to make us.

I hope i can find some good info on line that has some of this stuff already outlined, otherwise I'm going to be making a lof of stuff up (LOL, JK).

 

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: SolidEd

Originally posted by: gsellis
So, while there is a premium from buying from Dell over building your own, Dell supports it. They put on OS on it, have support for it, and can repair it. This is a value to a business in that you do not also need to do tech support. Since these are business purchases, tech support is in the US too.

This is exactly the way I'm looking at it.

Got another quote today for a very similar system as the last dell I posted (I actually sent them that list components and told them to quote it for me) for about $600 cheaper. However, there is some support that Dell provides that doesn't come with the cheaper system so in the end we'll have to weigh that out.

I am waiting for one more quote then I have to put all this together in some sort of "educational" proposal. I have to not only explain why these CAD specific work stations are better than using a general use PC's with extra RAM and a gaming video card (which is basically what we use now) but I also have to try to quantify how much more productive/efficient this is going to make us.

I hope i can find some good info on line that has some of this stuff already outlined, otherwise I'm going to be making a lof of stuff up (LOL, JK).

How many machines are you talking about?

If it's 10 or more machines then I can see the Dell support being a benefit, if its a smaller number of machines I don't think it makes a lot of sense. How long dose the Dell support last anyway?

If you pick the right components and build it the right way it should be very stable, reliable and last far longer then you'll ever need it to. I say if it's small enough number of systems that you or staff can manage yourself build them. Doesn?t Anandtech still build their own servers?

 

[BladeVenom]

Originally posted by: mfs378
Don't fill three memory slots - use either 2 or 4. Otherwise your memory won't run in dual-channel mode, and it will be half as fast.

That's nonsense. Dual channel usually only gives you a 5% or less increase in performance. A nice little tweak, but having enough memory is far more important than wether it's dual channel.