Help - what kind of nutrient deficiency is this?

[SaltyNuts]

These are "tendergreen" green bean plants. And they are already starting to drop green beans. But look at those leaves - the edges look like they are almost burning off. Any idea what deficiency that might be? Potassium? Magnesium? Calcium?

Thanks for any help!!!

 

[SaltyNuts]

Actually, looks like maybe nitrate or phosphate deficiency. Really looks more like nitrate. Which is hard to believe given how much nitrates I have been giving them, both from a soluble fertilizer and old tank water high in nitrates!!!! But I'm all ears!

 

[mindless1]

Many deficiencies can look more alike than deficiency guides would lead one to believe. Without a soil analysis, it can be difficult to know unless you built this soil from a balance of compost.

I might try a shotgun approach of 10-10-10 fertilizer, epsom salts, and calcium chloride, then use a year's worth of composting to add to the soil for next spring. Also be careful not to overwater, that alone can wash nutrients away and cause root rot so nutrient uptake is hampered.

If you've got them in one of those store bought potting products that is mostly brown cellulose (ground up wood, peat, etc), those start out low in nitrogen besides any that they add to create their special product, so if that's the case, in addition to the shotgun mentioned above, for the first half a month of applications I'd add more nitrogen to make it more like a 40-10-10 mix.

 

[turtile]

Actually, looks like maybe nitrate or phosphate deficiency. Really looks more like nitrate. Which is hard to believe given how much nitrates I have been giving them, both from a soluble fertilizer and old tank water high in nitrates!!!! But I'm all ears!

It's not nitrogen or phosphorus. It looks more like over fertilization. What are you using for the media and how much fertilizer are using? Do you water until the it drains out of the bottom?

 

[mindless1]

^ Unquestionably no, that does not at all look like over-fertilization. Over-fertilization looks like the whole plant drooping within 2 days. Been there, done it.

It is far more likely a nutrient deficiency, soil pH or fungus problem, and/or too much water.

Your best bet at this point is to transplant it into a larger pot or ground with good soil (soil, not some crap special bag of stuff, plain old earth dirt, lol) , not some starter "mix" and leave it alone, watering minimally until it has signs of leaves drooping from too little water. Again been there, tried and this was the best solution.

Consider farmers who produce most of what we eat. They don't go through this silliness. If you want to reproduce their (arguably considering the economy) success, recognize that they follow the (centuries of human crop experience) time tested measures, not internet "wisdom" about special measures.

Internet jockeys that tell you what to do, need to be clear about their goals. It is one thing to grow a high value marijuana crop where you're in trouble if you grow it outside, and another to grow something legal.

Most of the time, people who suggest special measures, are clueless noobs who grow a tiny plant or two, and have no idea that they would spend 1/100th as much to grow more. Again it depends on space. If all you have is an apartment balcony, and one plant, then sure, give that one plant nirvana because it's all you have. It's still about space, you'd get more from double the space at less than 1/10th the cost. Space and sun are THAT important. You can make mistakes (too little nutrients or overwatering), but there is no substitute for space (which means) sun, and space for roots, extensive roots is better than small pot roots trying to absurb a strong mix.

 

[turtile]

^ Unquestionably no, that does not at all look like over-fertilization. Over-fertilization looks like the whole plant drooping within 2 days. Been there, done it.

It is far more likely a nutrient deficiency, soil pH or fungus problem, and/or too much water.

Your best bet at this point is to transplant it into a larger pot or ground with good soil (soil, not some crap special bag of stuff, plain old earth dirt, lol) , not some starter "mix" and leave it alone, watering minimally until it has signs of leaves drooping from too little water. Again been there, tried and this was the best solution.

The reaction over fertilization causes depends on which nutrient(s) is causing the toxicity and/or the salt concentration in the media. The mix he is using also looks to be all organic material, possibly part manure, which can cause issues with nutrient balance. For example, manure can contain large amounts of phosphorus which can induce zinc deficiency. Zinc is not deficient in the media but it can't be obtained by the plant. Suggesting to add 10-10-10 which adds more phosphorus to the mix isn't going to resolve the issue. Also consider that organic material has very high CEC and phosphorus binds heavily the exchange sites, there is no easy way to get rid of it once it's been added.

Yes, you are right that the damage can be from root rot from over watering but we can't see that unless you pulls the plant out. We also can't see the pH unless he tests it. Adding more fertilizer not only increases the common fungal diseases but lowers the pH via nitrification due to the presence of ammonical nitrogen in the common 10-10-10. Potassium deficiency can also occur from temperature and improper water.

If constant liquid fertilizer is added to a pot, water should drain out of the bottom otherwise the media will build too much salt and nutrients.

 

[mindless1]

^ I didn't see read any indication that manure was used, nor any strong fertilizers?

 

[turtile]

^ I didn't see read any indication that manure was used, nor any strong fertilizers?

Actually, looks like maybe nitrate or phosphate deficiency. Really looks more like nitrate. Which is hard to believe given how much nitrates I have been giving them, both from a soluble fertilizer and old tank water high in nitrates!!!! But I'm all ears!

I can see from the photo that the there is a lot of organic material. It's extremely unlikely for soil/media to be low in nutrients with so much organic material with the addition of soluble fertilizer. Now if it was fresh hardwood or anything else very high in carbon, then it would be possible.

 

[mindless1]

^ Looks like shredded wood/etc to me, which can bind up and deplete available nitrogen easily.

There are a lot of poor fertilizers out there, we'd need to know exactly what it was and how much was applied.

 

[SaltyNuts]

Thanks mindless1 and turtile! So, the soil it is sitting directly in - i.e. that black soil with the littler perlite balls you can see, is a Kellog raised bed soil. But that is the top layer in that box. Underneatch, I have layers of compst/humis, top soil, and a bit of peat moss (I mixed these up a good, but not completely, figured it didn't have to be a perfect mix). I read that if you use straight compost it can cause nutrient burn, hence the top soil. And I read the peat moss can help with aeration.

The lighter brown stuff you see in the picture I think was just a tiny bit of some other soil (garden soil?) I had left over from some other deal so I just dumped it in. But there is such a small amount, basically what you see in the pic.

Garden certainly seems to be growing, and one or two beans have dropped, so something seems to be going well. I'll post some current pics tomorrow and you guys can let me know your thoughts! Thanks!!!

 

[turtile]

Thanks mindless1 and turtile! So, the soil it is sitting directly in - i.e. that black soil with the littler perlite balls you can see, is a Kellog raised bed soil. But that is the top layer in that box. Underneatch, I have layers of compst/humis, top soil, and a bit of peat moss (I mixed these up a good, but not completely, figured it didn't have to be a perfect mix). I read that if you use straight compost it can cause nutrient burn, hence the top soil. And I read the peat moss can help with aeration.

The lighter brown stuff you see in the picture I think was just a tiny bit of some other soil (garden soil?) I had left over from some other deal so I just dumped it in. But there is such a small amount, basically what you see in the pic.

Garden certainly seems to be growing, and one or two beans have dropped, so something seems to be going well. I'll post some current pics tomorrow and you guys can let me know your thoughts! Thanks!!!

With what you have, nutrient deficiency from the soil is unlikely. Top soil from the store is just any type of soil mixed with compost. Generally, 3-7% organic material by weight in soil is fine.

Did you have cooler weather and/or wet weather?

Avoid peat moss in the future, it's good for short term potting mixes but not long term. While it starts off as a well aerated medium, it degrades and provides less and less pore space. It's also extremely acidic. So much so that potting mixes with peat are mixed with lime for use. In addition, it's hydrophobic which makes it difficult to wet when it becomes totally dry. Potting mixes also contain wetting agents to fix the problem.

 

[mindless1]

^ Again I disagree, but it is much easier than going back and forth on this, to simply pick two plants and give one of them a nitrogen salt rich fertilizer and leave the other without, and make sure not to overwater so it doesn't wash out. Nitrogen rich means truly rich at this point, around a teaspoon of 30-10-10 per sq ft may be about right, initially, then reduce to half in a week and so on till the soil is done 'sinking nitrogen.

Potting soil is usually just something like shredded bark (varies by region what waste is available) that has half decomposed, and is still sinking away nitrogen and will not be fit without supplemental nitrogen for at least a couple months of use, for fast growing plants.

I have no problems using peat. The tapwater pH offsets it as well as any minerals in the soil like calcium from eggshells. The acidity is a good thing, greatly reduces the need to use mineral salt forms of fertilizer, but of course peat is only a soil amendment, not the entirety of the soil and as such, the other soil it is mixed with provides the wicking to eventually wet it.

Soil is a recipe where all ingredients count, or where you start adding fertilizer salts if you don't have the recipe right. The right recipe mandates some use of acidic material to break down minerals into the soluble salt form, whether it happens in your soil or in the compost before transferred to its final location.

Peat composting during use is not a problem if the soil is not overwatered, so the plant roots distribute and suspend the soil rather than compacting excessively. I've had success with peat for decades, but the key (as with anything) is moderation. It's an improvement rather than replacement for other soil qualities.

 

[turtile]

^ Again I disagree, but it is much easier than going back and forth on this, to simply pick two plants and give one of them a nitrogen salt rich fertilizer and leave the other without, and make sure not to overwater so it doesn't wash out. Nitrogen rich means truly rich at this point, around a teaspoon of 30-10-10 per sq ft may be about right, initially, then reduce to half in a week and so on till the soil is done 'sinking nitrogen.

You're making the assumption that his additives have a high C:N ratio which is not true. The top layer that he used has four different nutrient sources. I highly doubt they would still be in business selling a mix that cause nutrient deficiency.

His beans are producing fruit which means additional high nitrogen application can heavily hurt fruit production. Too much nitrogen will promote a lot of green vegetative growth. In addition, legumes form relationships with bacteria to fix atmospheric nitrogen into usable form.

Potting soil is usually just something like shredded bark (varies by region what waste is available) that has half decomposed, and is still sinking away nitrogen and will not be fit without supplemental nitrogen for at least a couple months of use, for fast growing plants.

Maybe truly cheap garbage contains uncomposted bark/wood but most short term potting mixes in the industry use peat/perlite/vermiculite/coir. Longer term crops, especially in the SE US, use composted pine bark.

I have no problems using peat. The tapwater pH offsets it as well as any minerals in the soil like calcium from eggshells. The acidity is a good thing, greatly reduces the need to use mineral salt forms of fertilizer, but of course peat is only a soil amendment, not the entirety of the soil and as such, the other soil it is mixed with provides the wicking to eventually wet it.

Tap water won't correct pH for peat. If you are adding nitrogen that has any ammonical form, you will be lucky to offset the acidification from nitrogen. Peat's pH is generally around 3.5 to 4.5. Only the most acid loving plants will grow well in it as is. Acid soils also leach out nitrate because the soil is negatively charged. Calcium does not change the pH unless it's in the carbonate/oxide form. It will buffer in neutral salt forms.

Soil is a recipe where all ingredients count, or where you start adding fertilizer salts if you don't have the recipe right. The right recipe mandates some use of acidic material to break down minerals into the soluble salt form, whether it happens in your soil or in the compost before transferred to its final location.

Peat composting during use is not a problem if the soil is not overwatered, so the plant roots distribute and suspend the soil rather than compacting excessively. I've had success with peat for decades, but the key (as with anything) is moderation. It's an improvement rather than replacement for other soil qualities.

Soil is complex but plant biology must be understood before assuming there is a problem with the soil. Temperature, moisture, humidity etc. will all play a role in nutrient uptake. Adding a bunch of things to the soil just makes a simple thing much more complex. Add some compost on top and use a recommended amount of fertilizer for the crop and you're good. (Of soil test is best)

If the soil is outside, how can you prevent over watering from rain? I'm not saying peat isn't good, it's superior to most things in potting mix but simply using composted leaves and bark is far superior for outdoor applications.

 

[mindless1]

^ Again instead of going back and forth he can simply try fertilizer.

I have had no problem using peat for decades, though I do use more leaves and other materials because it would make no sense to throw them away and then need more peat.

Tapwater pH does need offset. I've observed it practically every time it rains, and so I collect roof rainwater rather than an additive to offset the pH, except that peat is doing that.

I'm not arguing theory as much as success over many years of gardening. Everything I've stated, works great.