Help stop a friend from throwing his $ out the window

[MDesigner]

I've got a buddy who is building a digital audio workstation. Here's what he's looking at for parts:

CHASSIS: AOPEN QF50A --$45
MOTHERBOARD: ASUS P4PE/LAN 533/400 FSB 3 DDR PC2700 -- $115
CPU: INTEL P4 533FSB -- $299 (He went intel because athlon no longer makes boards that support onboard SCSI)
VIDEO CARD: ATI RADEON 7000 64MB -- $49
HARD DRIVES 2 SEAGATE SCSI 80 Pin drives 10,000 RPM -- Already purchased
DVD ROM: 16X --$40 (I want 24x or 48x)
CDRW: 54X24X52X -- $49 (If DVD ROMs do CDRW, I wont need this...)
FLOPPY: $9
SCSI ADAPTOR: LSIU 160 -- $40 or Adaptec 29160 -- $196 (My problem: he wants an ONBOARD SCSI MOBO to get around needing one of these.)
SCSI Cable -- $35

First off, $299 ?! Screw Intel. The problem is, he definitely needs SCSI support. Is it true that there are no AMD boards that have onboard SCSI? What about those SCSI adaptors, will those do the trick? The only concern I have with 3rd party adaptors is, the BIOS does not recognize the drives. So if you boot on a floppy to run a disk check or something like that, it doesn't see any hard drives. I had that problem with my last system because I had a Promise IDE controller separate from the m/b.

What do you guys recommend he do? I say he goes for an Epox 8RDA+ with an XP2500+ Barton. But which SCSI controller to get? And will he have issues with the drives not being detected when booting on a Win9x/DOS floppy?

Thanks!

 

[dwango]

Can't he just get a separate SCSI controller card?

 

[Tab]

Do him a favor and force him to register on AnAndTech

 

[mechBgon]

What's wrong with non-onboard SCSI? It's readily transportable to other systems, for one thing.

There are certainly AMD boards with onboard SCSI controllers, such as Tyan's Thunder K7X Pro at $435, with dual-channel Ultra320 SCSI onboard the 64-bit PCI bus.

He could get a combo DVD-ROM/CD-RW drive for around $60 these days, that would save a few bucks.

 

[MDesigner]

Like I said, what about the problem with non-onboard SCSI (or any controller for that matter)... if you boot on a floppy to run a hard drive check or something, it won't detect the devices because they're not connected directly to the motherboard's controller. How do you remedy this?

 

[mechBgon]

The onboard SCSI controller is not going to change that. It's soldered to the motherboard, but it's the same as a plug-in card from the motherboard's point of view. SCSI controllers have their own BIOS that can do low-level formats and error-checks on the drives.

Bottom line: boards with onboard SCSI are going to be expensive, unless you snag one cheap off e-Bay or something.

 

[DSE]

Originally posted by: MDesigner
Like I said, what about the problem with non-onboard SCSI (or any controller for that matter)... if you boot on a floppy to run a hard drive check or something, it won't detect the devices because they're not connected directly to the motherboard's controller. How do you remedy this?

Most boards, if not all will load the SCSI BIOS into the MB's extended settings, making the drives available. That's how Ghost, Partition Magic and programs like that access the drives. Older boards had trouble loading the controller card's BIOS if you didn't have the card in one of the top PCI slots (or which ever PCI slots were designated for this purpose). Newer boards tend to be a lot better about it.

 

[Playmaker]

Pair a $170 P4 2.4C with a Springdale or Canterwood board for greater performance then the AMD set up you are recommending after OCing and only ~$50 more then the AMD set up. I don't know why you'd spend $299 on a 533FSB P4 chip (you didn't list the speed btw)...

 

[Slammy1]

Well first, I can boot off my SCSI off my old system. A friend has it now, he can also. It's an Adaptec AHA2940UW Pro, so it's neither advanced nor fancy. He doesn't even have a floppy right now. But, yeah, more bang for the buck is some fast memory, a 2.4C, and a Zalman cooler. My UW drives ran too hot, I had to put them in my friend's P3-850 where they run much cooler. I don't think SCSI drives are good for HTPC. Yeah, great low error marks for better video encoding, but they will be loud, warm, and take spin up time to warm up. That's why I decided to change from the SCSI tree. I think they're great, don't get me wrong, just not right for the application.And what, no sound card for a DA workstation? Hell need the SCA to 68-pin converter. Are those Cheetahs? 18.4GB? Might need some sort of basic RAID to get his money's worth.How old are they?

 

[Bleep]

Just a little advice. If you talk your friend out of his choise of components and he has some problems guess who will take the crap over it? Is it worth it?

Bleep

 

[Actaeon]

Its his money... sure, give him you suggestion, and recommendation. I really wouldn't stress over it.

 

[MDesigner]

Not sure what types of drives he's got already. And the sound card wasn't listed because that's already settled.. I believe he's getting a Delta 66.

 

[MaestroK]

Hey everybody, I'm the friend who you all are trying to help save some money. Here's what I'm currently looking at doing:

CHASSIS: Unknown (Suggestions here?)

MOTHERBOARD: Epox 8RDA+

PROCESSOR: AMD Athlon XP 2500+ "Barton"

HD: 2 50 gig SEAGATE 80 pin SCSI drives at 10,000 RPM

VIDEO CARD: ATI Radeon 7000 64 MB

MEMORY: 2 Kingston HyperX 512 DDR

DVD: 2 options here. Either: Lite On Black 48x24x48x16 CDROM/CDRW/DVD Combo Drive LTC-48161H OR
DVD: Lite-on DVD 16x XJ-HD166S and some CDRW: Lite-on, uknown model as of yet.

QUESTION:
All three of these drives (the DVD/CD-R/CD-RW combo drive and the separate drives say ATAPI/EIDE interface. Are they usable with my SCSI set up? If not, what are alternatives?

FLOPPY: Unknown. (Suggestions, please?) Same question above applies: will it work with SCSI set up?

SCSI ADAPTER: 2 choices here: 1.) the cheaper alternative -- LSI Logic for a mere $41 OR 2.) Adaptec 29160 for $105 (What am I looking for here?

SCSI Cable: Vaster 80 pin to 68 pin cable. (I assume this is right for my HDs?)

Thanks for all your help!

Steve

 

[MaestroK]

Whoopsie, I forgot: the suggestion for the CHASSIS was: AOPEN QF5OA

Thanks!
Steve

 

[MaestroK]

Hey folks,
Question for you all:

So I've done more research into this Epox 8RDA+ board and to my dismay, it does not have 64 bit PCI slots, only the standard 32 bit. Well, the SCSI adapters I'm looking at are all 64 bit. Does this kill the Epox motherboard? And where the heck can I find an inexpensive board with 64 bit PCI that performs well. (The TYAN is freakin expensive, but if it's the only option...)

Help!

Steve

 

[gf4200isdabest]

"Help stop a friend from throwing his $ out the window"

What do you want me to do, rob him?

I think getting an Intel is a good decision and your "screw intel" comment didn't really do much to dissuade me. Intel would be a much better choice for a workstation. The only thing he's getting screwed on is 299 for a p4 with the 533 fsb. Be a good friend a point him to newegg where he can get a Intel Pentium 4 / 2.8GHz 512k socket 478 Hyper Threading Technology 800 MHz FSB - OEM for $271. If he has the money, a p4 w/ hyperthreading will serve his purposes much better than a 2500+ Barton would.

If you really want to help him, show him that he could get a better p4 for less money; trying to convince him to get a worse CPU for less money isn't "helping."

 

[MDesigner]

Let's not get started on a religious war over which CPU is better. AMD is not a "worse CPU"... it may be a slightly slower performer, but for the price, you can't beat it. Yes, the price of a 2.8GHz P4 beats AMD's CPU of that same speed.. but he really doesn't need 2.8GHz. I mean, it's up to him.. maybe he wants to game or something on the side, but audio workstations don't need nearly 3GHz to perform well. RAM and hard drive space are the important factors with the tools that we use, not processor power. You can get an Athlon XP 2500+ Barton for $96 retail on NewEgg. I've got the Epox 8RDA+ with the aforementioned Athlon CPU, and my machine as an audio workstation performs quite well.

So.. if Steve wants to grab a P4, that's fine.. I just know that he's on a budget, and I'm trying to get him a nicely performing machine at a decent cost.. NOT top-of-the-line.

 

[MikeMike]

the only way you are going to find 64 bit pci slots is if you go with a server board, and at that option you are going to be paying close to 300$+ for a decent board.

why not go w/ sata raptors? that way you can get close to scsi speed, and a lot of new boards have sata controllers onboard?

MIKE

 

[gf4200isdabest]

Originally posted by: MDesigner
Let's not get started on a religious war over which CPU is better. AMD is not a "worse CPU"... it may be a slightly slower performer, but for the price, you can't beat it. Yes, the price of a 2.8GHz P4 beats AMD's CPU of that same speed.. but he really doesn't need 2.8GHz. I mean, it's up to him.. maybe he wants to game or something on the side, but audio workstations don't need nearly 3GHz to perform well. RAM and hard drive space are the important factors with the tools that we use, not processor power. You can get an Athlon XP 2500+ Barton for $96 retail on NewEgg. I've got the Epox 8RDA+ with the aforementioned Athlon CPU, and my machine as an audio workstation performs quite well.

So.. if Steve wants to grab a P4, that's fine.. I just know that he's on a budget, and I'm trying to get him a nicely performing machine at a decent cost.. NOT top-of-the-line.

He obviously not on a very tight budget if he's planning on spending 300 dollars for a CPU. I suggested how you could get a better CPU for less money. I'm not starting an AMD vs Intel war; i'm merely stating that the way you buy a CPU isn't a simple ratio of (performance in *** bench) / (price). It doesn't matter whether or not you can beat it for the price. What matters is; "what's the best computer you can get in your price range." His price range allows him to get a p4 w/ hyperthreading + 800FSB. That is the top performing CPU in his price range. By my logic, the decision is a simple one.

 

[brettjrob]

The 2.4C with 800FSB and HT for only $75 more than the Barton would be a better choice IMO. Once you add up the cost of CPU, motherboard, and RAM, the percentage difference in cost between the two platforms is going to be 20 to 25% at most, and the P4 is superior with regard to performance.

 

[MaestroK]

Hey guys... What about the PCI dilemma I posted about above? The 8RDA+ would be just grand if it had 64 bit PCI slots, but it doesn't. What now?

 

[MaestroK]

Wow, sorry Mike, not used to how fast this thing updates. So you're telling me that a good SPDIF board with SCSI onboard exists? What's it like in comparison to the Athlons and Intels?

 

[MaestroK]

Oh, I see. Sata is an alternative to SCSI. Problem is, I've perchased the SCSI boards already, and if they can work, I want them to work. But I assume with just 32 bit PCI slots, I'll just get 80mps instead of the full 160 which sucks...

 

[Playmaker]

Go with a P4 2.4C. Many are OCing to 3.0ghz on stock retail HSF and it will outperform a 2500+ Barton OCed to 3200+. The price difference is $75, and when you figure in the fact that the AMD can't make that OC on the retail HSF like the Intel can you have to add in $30 for an aftermarket HSF. I realize this forum is full of AMD fanbois. On another post similar to this a guy posted that he'd recommend the AMD solution over the Intel solution and he was NOT biased. I clicked on his rigs link and he had 5 AMD rigs and no Intel rigs LOL. ATM the Intel route is a better decision for better performance at a $45 additional price. Get a Springdale or Canterwood board with onboard SATA RAID and run 2 Raptors...

 

[Spac3d]

Originally posted by: MaestroK
Oh, I see. Sata is an alternative to SCSI. Problem is, I've perchased the SCSI boards already, and if they can work, I want them to work. But I assume with just 32 bit PCI slots, I'll just get 80mps instead of the full 160 which sucks...

You already purchased a SCSI PCI card?