help spidey pick foundry/extreme gear

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
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I don't know their product lines that well so maybe some guys could throw together some gear recommendations that would be an apples to apples comparison to the cisco 6500 platform.

Data Center/Core application (two switches, could be four based on model)
High redudancy/availibility (dual switches)
150 ports 10/100/1000 each
4-8 10 Gig ports each
24 GBIC based ports each
Full routing capabilities

True layer3 core (two switches) would route/switch between campus buildings. Attached to this core would be a server farm of two switches...that's where the 10/100/1000 comes in.


thanks bunches!
 

spidey07

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Aug 4, 2000
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Originally posted by: amdfanboy
I thought you said you were going Cisco ? :confused:

I have to price/look at other manufacturers to squeeze another 10 points out of cisco.

John
 

CTR

Senior member
Jun 12, 2000
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Heya Spidey, here's my quick run-down on Extreme:

My company has Alpines, Black Diamonds, and Summit48's installed in all of our markets. The Summits have been fine. The Alpines and the BD's have alarming hardware failure rates. We have encountered our share of bugs in the software as well, which have not been addressed in a timely manner. BGP is not stable enough to put into production. Some OSPF problems occasionally, but no show-stoppers in a redundant configuration. RIP working like a champ. No ISIS support in stable code yet. The chassis are bright purple.

So an Extreme Sales Droid would probably recommend some combination of BD's at the core and possibly Alpines at the edge. I don't have any experience with the BD10K equipment, but check out the specs on their Black Diamond 6800-series

Do you have the authority within your company to send an RFP to the other vendors? On short notice, you might get a green sales crew assigned to you, but that should be good enough for a bluff. It's been a couple of years, but we played the 3 vendors against each other and ended up with a surprisingly competitive quote from Cisco.

Sorry if this post was more of a gripe session than anything else. Good luck!
 

cmetz

Platinum Member
Nov 13, 2001
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spidey07, really, this is just a matter of perusing Extreme's web site. A BD6808/6816 would beat anything the 6500 series pits against it in the real world, but is a fairly well matched competitor. (Cisco's newest Sup720/high density gig stuff beats the BD6800 stuff on paper, but my understanding is that in the real world no way). Of course, Cisco's sales guys are required to stick to the party line in which the Cisco product is better.

The BD10k is very impressive on paper, and is probably a lot scarier to your Cisco sales rep.. say "wow, this is a platform that's really got a lot of room for me to expand in the future, so I'd spend more for it... but yours doesn't seem to have so much future-proofing" ;) Operationally, that box is a brand new major generation... definitely some risk there.

CTR, please elaborate about exactly what the hardware failures you're seeing are.
 

spidey07

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Aug 4, 2000
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just got off the phone with extreme and an account rep/SE. Seems pretty straight forward and of course they're gear compares with cisco in terms of features.

Or so they say?
 

ITJunkie

Platinum Member
Apr 17, 2003
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www.techange.com
Originally posted by: CTR
Heya Spidey, here's my quick run-down on Extreme:

My company has Alpines, Black Diamonds, and Summit48's installed in all of our markets. The Summits have been fine. The Alpines and the BD's have alarming hardware failure rates. We have encountered our share of bugs in the software as well, which have not been addressed in a timely manner. BGP is not stable enough to put into production. Some OSPF problems occasionally, but no show-stoppers in a redundant configuration. RIP working like a champ. No ISIS support in stable code yet. The chassis are bright purple.

So an Extreme Sales Droid would probably recommend some combination of BD's at the core and possibly Alpines at the edge. I don't have any experience with the BD10K equipment, but check out the specs on their Black Diamond 6800-series

Do you have the authority within your company to send an RFP to the other vendors? On short notice, you might get a green sales crew assigned to you, but that should be good enough for a bluff. It's been a couple of years, but we played the 3 vendors against each other and ended up with a surprisingly competitive quote from Cisco.

Sorry if this post was more of a gripe session than anything else. Good luck!

Though I don't have any experience with the BD's, CTR is right about the Summits. They are fast, solid and a couple grand less than a comparable Cisco. Hammer your Cisco rep spidey...they can come down in price :)

 

CTR

Senior member
Jun 12, 2000
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Here is some elaboration, as requested by cmetz:

Numerous Alpines have experienced a catastrophic backplane failure, requiring chassis replacement. On more than one occasion, the replacement chassis also failed. In a related incident, the backplane on one chassis caught fire when the heatsink fell off the chip it was cooling (this was the chip responsible for most of the backplane problems, according to Extreme). We have replaced a host of SMMI's, and a whole crop of power supplies.

Our Black Diamonds have experienced hardware failure at every level. Our most consistent failuresare the Ethernet cards, both 10/100 and Gig.

If anyone feels compelled to read about more of my Extreme hardware issues, I can oblige. But it really isn't helping this thread, so a PM might be more appropriate.

Hey Spidey did they mention EAPS?
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
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yeah, EAPS was mentioned and sounds pretty neat. Although I don't like proprietary solutions/protocols.

I'd like to get to an all layer3 campus and avoid any layer2 issues all togther.




 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,303
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Originally posted by: spidey07
just got off the phone with extreme and an account rep/SE. Seems pretty straight forward and of course they're gear compares with cisco in terms of features.

Or so they say?

Don't forget to call the Foundry rep too, to see what they have to say..
 

cmetz

Platinum Member
Nov 13, 2001
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spidey07, there is an IEEE working group - I believe it's called like ROR or something - working on an EAPS-like protocol but standard. Doesn't help you today, but someday there will be a standard solution to this problem and it's a very useful technology. Reference previous conversation about spanning-tree sucking - give up on STP for redundancy and instead deal with healing rings the good old FDDI/SONET way we know how to make work pretty well.

Going all L3 and OSPF would be very cool though. Mixing L2 & L3 technologies in the same problem domain (e.g., path selection / routing) is asking for trouble, and I don't think you're going to be able to avoid the L3 part, sooooo...

Astaroth33's right, a call to Foundry's sales guys would be in order, too.
 

Darthkim

Senior member
Dec 11, 1999
204
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Spidey,

I am assuming that you want your gig and gbic ports not oversubscribed correct? I was comparing with foundry and extreme and cisco when doing the rfp a couple month earlier.

Obviously we've been over the cisco setup. The only question being whether you want 2port 10 gig blade (fully non blocking ) or 4port 10gig blade (almost...non blocking) (assuming 6513, dual sup720, 6748 with dcef, 6816 with cef)

On the foundry side, we were looking at the fastiron 1500. The only downside for that design is that it only has 8 GB/slot to the backplane. So obviously if you were adding 10G links, you could only run maximum 8GB of it. The BigIron MG8 looks great on specs, except that it only has 10 gig modules. Also cost wise, the fastiron matches up nicely with the cisco 6509/sup720 combo. Plus i like their Sflow stuff. Very neat. For them to meet your requirements, you could get by with 2 switches (just because the 150 gig /per switch takes up 10 slots of the FI 1500. with redundant sup, you have 3 slots remaining. 1 would be used for a 16 gbic fiber (for a total of 24... 16+8) and 2 2port 10 gig modules). You could split this configuration over 4 switches and have some room for growth. otherwise with two switches, you have no room for growth.

On the Extreme side, we were looking at the 6816 series. I wasn't sure about the quality issues, but the guys in this forum seem to verify what i heard from other folks. One guy i met in a cisco training class stated that he had to have both his 6816 replaced due to constant failure. Besides that story, one thing that extreme couldn't do was meet our port density and subscription ratio. We wanted 150 10/100/100 gig ports with max of 2:1 over subscription. Their spec sheet states max 360 (but at 4:1 ratio). If you want non blocking, you can only get 128 out of this chassis (that fully populated chassis with 2 or 4 sup modules and 16 of these 8 gig ports). So i won't even bother mentioning the 10 gig ports because there is no room. Even if you did go 4 switches in your core, i think extreme would barely cut it (as far as meeting your req's that is)

The 10808 looks great on paper but wasn't available when i did my rfp. Extreme also has some very cool proprietary routing protocols and other features which makes them different from the other vendors.

Hope this helps... good luck!