Help me with home alarm wiring and wireless/wired home phone + FTTH home phone

[Eug]

Hi there. I just cancelled my landline because Bell was killing me on the price. I then got wireless home phone (which is basically a cell line hooked up to your phone system) for like 1/7th of the price. However, it doesn't support fax machines or most alarm systems. So, in the meantime I'm trying to negotiate a cheap landline from Bell again, but this time through FTTH, as I am getting Gigabit Ethernet and IPTV, and they can attach a home phone translater to the FTTH connection. Or at least, that's how I understand it works. No more copper infrastructure.

I have confirmed faxes through my wireless cellular home phone do not work. However, I heard that some alarm system can work through wireless cellular home phone. (I'm not talking about a GSM backup module, which requires its own cell line.)

When I was testing my home alarm system to see if it was sensing the home phone network I had plugged the wireless adapter into the DSL filter in the wiring closet in my basement. The way the system is wired, it seems that jack receives the connection from the outside, and then outputs to the home alarm system, which then in turn outputs to the rest of the house. In this setup, all jacks are active everywhere in the house.

Wireless adapter --> DSL filter --> alarm system --> rest of house = everything has a dial tone

However, if I plug my wireless adapter into any other jack in the house, all the jacks in the rest of the house are active, EXCEPT for the DSL filter jacks and the alarm system. So somehow it seems the alarm system is not allowing the signals to pass. Interesting. Not sure how this is happening but it seems like it is by design.

Wireless adapter --> rest of house --> alarm system --> DSL filter = house jacks have dial tone but alarm system and DSL filter don't get it.

So, in order to test the alarm system it seems I must connect it directly to the line somehow. But maybe that's a bad idea. Any advice? Maybe what I'll do is just keep my wireless home phone populating multi-handset cordless phones, physically separate from my home phone's internal wired network. I'll place the fax machine on the home phone network along with the alarm system. They'll be on their own line, and wireless is for all voice calls.

This is what it looks like:

The blue and white line coming into the DSL filter is from the outside copper line. However, that is currently disconnected at the demarc.

Then there is a regular phone cable attaching the DSL filter box to the square box on the left. That in turn connects to the home alarm system.

From there, going back into the square box are lines that go into that spaghetti mess of wires above, that lead to the rest of the house.

When the Bell guy comes to install the landline, I'm thinking I need to have him install a phone jack right there, and then run a cable from the phone jack to the alarm system. I'm thinking it would be a bad idea to have the alarm system unfiltered and live with all the rest of the jacks in the house, but then again, maybe it's not such a bad idea if there is no voice on that line.

 

[Red Squirrel]

How does this service work, is it basically a box with a network jack and phone jack that the phones plug into? I presume the DSL is not in use at all? If it uses regular phones seems odd that fax or the alarm would not work as it should still be POTS. The wireless is just a transport method.

Out of curiosity put a volt meter on a working phone line (you can probably probe the 2 middle strips of a phone cable that is plugged in). I have phone service but through fibre and I get a reading of 47v, which seems about right. With standard copper you'd get 54 but that's because they float the batteries, 48 is the nominal voltage of POTS.

It really does seem strange that it does not work though for fax and alarm. In what way does it not work, does it display any kind of error?

Oh and you probably don't need the POTS splitter anymore at all. You can probably just bypass that. But I don't think that's the reason why it's not working.

 

[Eug]

No the DSL POTS splitter is pretty much irrelevant right now. I think it's the alarm system is filtering everything out, since it's connected in series: Outside line --> POTS splitter --> alarm --> rest of house. I think the alarm manufacturers want to have the alarm isolated from the rest of the house jacks.

So, if the landline installer were to install the connection downstream from the alarm system, it would not work. It has to be upstream from the alarm system. However, I'm not sure I want that either. I want options, for connections either downstream or upstream from the alarm system. Perhaps I can convince him to install two jacks there.

BTW, the cell based home phone uses a device with basically just the world's ugliest cell phone in a big box with a big-ass antenna, and has a built-in phone battery too. The key though is that it has two RJ-11 jacks in the back. In essence, it converts a cell line to wired home phone. Mine came with a special Zoomer SIM that can only work in these devices but not regular cell phones. In contrast though, since it actually has a SIM slot, and you can put a regular phone SIM in there and it will work. (It's not like the popular VoIP systems, because it doesn't require an internet connection.) However, since it's cell based, it doesn't work with fax machines and it doesn't work with a lot of alarm systems.

Mine is a ZTE WF721, with Zoomer Wireless, which is a reseller of Cityfone, which in turn is owned by Rogers. I pay $10 a month for unlimited Canada-wide calling, caller ID, and enhanced voicemail. Here is the AT&T version:

And this is what it really looks like:

BTW, I actually tried a Fido SIM in it. Once the Fido SIM was installed, all of a sudden all my cordless phones got Name Display support (which is different from Caller ID). For my $10 a month Zoomer account I only have Caller ID, but not Name Display. But my Fido SIM has all the fixins.

---

For FTTH home phone though, my understanding is the adapter module that converts FTTH to wired home phone is basically the equivalent of a true landline. Although it no longer uses the copper POTS infrastructure, you still get all the features associated with landlines, including fax and home alarm system support, except now it's running over fibre optic all the way from your home. The only drawback is that it isn't externally powered, so when the battery dies, so does your landline.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Ohhhhh I wonder if it's actually using the voice portion of the cellular service for the phones. That actually would make sense now that I think about it... I was figuring it's just using some kind of POTS box and using a data stream as a carrier. But picking up a land line phone is probably like talking on the actual cell. Hmmm, yeah really not sure what your options would be here for the fax. Maybe some kind of magic jack type box? (never used one of those myself but think they basically simulate a POTS line)

For the alarm I would just look into a separate GSM module/service but guess that probably costs extra per month... I'd check with them to see if they have some kind of option regardless. Magic jack might also work.

 

[Eug]

Ohhhhh I wonder if it's actually using the voice portion of the cellular service for the phones. That actually would make sense now that I think about it... I was figuring it's just using some kind of POTS box and using a data stream as a carrier. But picking up a land line phone is probably like talking on the actual cell. Hmmm, yeah really not sure what your options would be here for the fax. Maybe some kind of magic jack type box? (never used one of those myself but think they basically simulate a POTS line)

For the alarm I would just look into a separate GSM module/service but guess that probably costs extra per month... I'd check with them to see if they have some kind of option regardless. Magic jack might also work.

I don't really care about the fax anymore. I'll just use online faxing for the rare times I need it. (I used to fax about 200 pages a month, but now it's more like 1 fax every few months.)

As for the GSM module for the alarm system, I was all set to do that, but it was going to cost me several hundred bucks' worth of upgrades, plus $8-10 a month for the GSM line. So, that's when I looked at getting the land line. I currently have it bundled in a Gigabit internet + TV package with Bell, but I'm going to try to negotiate them down to $10 a month or less. So I'd still be paying the same $10 per month, but I don't have to pay for a GSM module (and an update to the alarm system).

 

[Red Squirrel]

Oh wow yeah that seems like a lot. I kinda got lucky with my alarm, everything was free including that, but they were also charging me like 60 something per month, so I probably still got played there. Should have DIY installed then found a cheap monitoring station. They charge less now though, it's the first time ever that I see the price of a service go down. It's like 40 something now.

But yeah sounds like trying to negotiate a land line might be your best bet. Check with other local telecoms too as they may be able to offer it cheaper through the same physical cable plant.

 

[Eug]

Oh wow yeah that seems like a lot. I kinda got lucky with my alarm, everything was free including that, but they were also charging me like 60 something per month, so I probably still got played there. Should have DIY installed then found a cheap monitoring station. They charge less now though, it's the first time ever that I see the price of a service go down. It's like 40 something now.

But yeah sounds like trying to negotiate a land line might be your best bet. Check with other local telecoms too as they may be able to offer it cheaper through the same physical cable plant.

Where are you? If you own your alarm system now, you should be paying a lot less than $40. Unless security companies are uber expensive way up north. (You're up north somewhere right?)

I paid $10 a month for alarm monitoring, but I own the alarm system free and clear, and that's with a land line.

If I can get them down to $10 a month or so for the land line, that will work out well, since the alarm monitoring and land line together will be $20 a month, or $240 a year. I get about a $200 discount a year on my home insurance for having the monitored alarm system, so I'm only out $40 a year.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Where are you? If you own your alarm system now, you should be paying a lot less than $40. Unless security companies are uber expensive way up north. (You're up north somewhere right?)

I paid $10 a month for alarm monitoring, but I own the alarm system free and clear, and that's with a land line.

If I can get them down to $10 a month or so for the land line, that will work out well, since the alarm monitoring and land line together will be $20 a month, or $240 a year. I get about a $200 discount a year on my home insurance for having the monitored alarm system, so I'm only out $40 a year.

Timmins so not really THAT far north, think the company I'm with (Protectron... but now it's ADT) is just more expensive. If I wanted to I could probably shop around and find something cheaper, but not sure how that would work as they own the system, technically. What I probably should have done is gone the DIY route and then shop around but it was done on a whim. Garage got broken into and realized I really needed an alarm stat.

 

[skyking]

Your home alarm system gets first shot at dial tone. This is achieved by going through an RJ31x jack.
http://security.livewatch.com/forum...it-on-my-alarm-system-and-how-do-i-hook-it-up

that's the tan box on the left with the cover off. It is not a regular phone jack.

 

[Cee3PeeOh]

Yeah, the RJ31X is wired so the alarm has priority to seize the phone line even if you are using it on another phone.
The DSL filter is for the alarm to communicate to the central station. The 31 X can be tested by removing the modular plug in connector. This shorts the phone line back to the telephones in the building. You should get dialtone on the red /green pair opposite the modular plug. The incoming dialtone from your demarc should hit these first two terminals. From there, dialtone goes to the alarm via the red green pair then returns to the 31X via the brown grey then to your house phones by the red green pair coming in from the bottom right.

GSM's are all fine and work great until they decide to sunset that particular communication technology. ie 2G vs 3G vs 4G. You pay $200 smackers for a cell communicator then the technology is gone and Bam, another $200 bucks for the latest and greatest which works for 6 more years, then Bam!

Top this off with alarm manufacturers saying no to VOIP technology and Ma Bell making noises to kill all POTS services causing long range radio mesh networks to flourish. Fun stuff I deal with every day.

 

[skyking]

welcome
did you find the thread by my RJ31x reference?
LOL!

 

[Cee3PeeOh]

Nah, I found it while researching why network devices drop offline for no apparent reason. Specifically network security cameras and DVRs. Bandwidth? PoE glitchy? NIC problems? IP conflicts? I dunno. Finally got my DVR so I could get into it remotely via my laptop through my home network again then three days later it goes offline again. Can't even ping it.

Got any threads on that subject?

 

[skyking]

Does the DVR have a private static IP? Start up a thread over in the Networking subforum.

 

[Eug]

Ah thanks. I didn't know about the RJ31X. Now I do. Learn something every day.

This is useful, because the install guy is coming next week. I'll have to make sure he installs it so the alarm system will work. My monitoring company says we will need to test it while he's still there.

BTW, I just called in and told them that their cable competitor is offering a sweet deal with cheaper Gigabit + TV and $10 home phone (which is the truth), and then said I was thinking of cancelling the FTTH install and going with cable. They then proceeded to discount my home phone price to exactly $0.01 for two years to beat the overall Gigabit + TV + home phone cable price... by $1. Nice.

So, 2 more years before I have to decide whether or not to go with a GSM module or something similar for the alarm system. That means now I'll have two home phone lines. One dedicated line with no features but which supports fax and alarm systems, and another cell-based one for all of $10 a month with Canada-wide long distance, etc. Previously, I use to pay over $60 a month for one line to get all those features.

 

[Red Squirrel]

If you do go with a GSM module I imagine if it's 3G or 4G it's going to be around for a while. But yeah that is a valid concern given how fast things seem to get phased out and changed these days. Meanwhile good ol' POTS keeps purring away.

Even CDMA is still around, though they keep talking about phasing it out. They keep pushing the date though. It's odd how that works because they did a huge upgrade to it years ago and now they're already talking about phasing it out. Onstar uses it so it's still kinda important.

 

[Cee3PeeOh]

"They then proceeded to discount my home phone price to exactly $0.01 for two years to beat the overall Gigabit + TV + home phone cable price... by $1. Nice."


The squeaky wheel...


To Skyking, Yes, http port is 2001 and a static IP of 192.168.1.159:2001. Uverse guy was here and we got it working but it went offline again. During my years of working with NVR's, DVR's and IP cameras they ALL have a habit of going offline seemingly for no reason. It doesn't matter what manufacturer or type of network.

 

[Eug]

"They then proceeded to discount my home phone price to exactly $0.01 for two years to beat the overall Gigabit + TV + home phone cable price... by $1. Nice."


The squeaky wheel...


To Skyking, Yes, http port is 2001 and a static IP of 192.168.1.159:2001. Uverse guy was here and we got it working but it went offline again. During my years of working with NVR's, DVR's and IP cameras they ALL have a habit of going offline seemingly for no reason. It doesn't matter what manufacturer or type of network.

My Vivotek IP8330 is on 24/7. Works fine. I haven't reset it in like 2 years.
And Vivotek is supposedly only mid-range.

 

[Cee3PeeOh]

sorry, didn't mean to hijack a thread.

 

[Cee3PeeOh]

Well Eug, how did it go?

Your larm workin now?