Help me save a WWII relic !!!!

[wacki]

I'm at my parents house for Christmas and my brother and I got in an arguement about the acids in coca-cola removing rust. He says it can't, but to prove him wrong (I have a minor in Organic Chem) I took some vinegar and salt and then cleaned up a rust caked wrench that I found in our basement which had flooded in the fall. My dad took a look at the wrench and then said "Maybe you can help me with this, I've tried every product on the market. It was in the basement when it flooded." He then pulled out my Grandfathers pistol from WWII!!! After stopping myself from strangling him for his carelessness, I told him that I might be able to help. But not before asking my friends at Anandtech!!!

So here's the low down. I know vinegar and salt works on tools, but gunmetal might be a different story. It's a different type of metal and without getting too technical, I don't know if the different properites of the metal will alter the chemical reaction in a negative way. The gun is rusted shut. I cant remove the clip, pull the trigger, or do anything else with the gun. Amazingly enough however, besides a slight rust tarnish, the gun looks ok. It's just rusted completely shut. Since the gun looks ok on the outside, I would like to get inside and clean it up. Incase your curious, it's a FN pistol that was licensed out to browning. It appears to be a 9mm. So I think it's kind of rare.

Please help,
wacki

 

[Soulkeeper]

i don't know if this will help but i once found a swiss army knife that had been in the dirt outside for years
i put it in a gas can for like 3 weeks and when i took it out the thing was looking pretty good and i was able to actually open it
i also used gas to remove roofing tar from my hands once
just don't use it around flame or spark, or in a house or any confined place (i recommend not doing this if you are under 18 either)

if you go to a gun shop i'm sure they sell different wire brush tools and polishing kits for guns these could also be usefull


good luck, let us know how it goes

 

[nineball9]

Perhaps naval jelly and gun oil.
If the item is truely rare or collectible, you may wish to consult an antiques/gun dealer first.

 

[Geniere]

Try the scientific way. You'll will need a direct current source such as an automobile battery or charger, a plastic bucket, some baking soda, and a piece of stainless steel (kitchen knife, fork...). Make sure the gun is not loaded.

Fill bucket with with one gallon of water. Add about one-half cup of baking soda and stir. Connect negative terminal of DC source to the gun. Support gun by a string and a rod accross top of bucket so gun does not contact bucket surfaces. Attach positive terminal to stainless steel utensil which is placed in bucket and supported as was the gun. Electrolysis will draw rust from the gun. Observe progress, and when satisfied, remove from bucket and quickly dry completly perhaps in a 160 degree oven after a good wipe off. Go to a gun shop and get a "bluing kit" to protect gun from further damage. Store in a safe low humidity area.


PS - Hide rust covered Knife or fork from your wife.

 

[OrganizedChaos]

Originally posted by: Geniere
Try the scientific way. You'll will need a direct current source such as an automobile battery or charger, a plastic bucket, some baking soda, and a piece of stainless steel (kitchen knife, fork...). Make sure the gun is not loaded.

Fill bucket with with one gallon of water. Add about one-half cup of baking soda and stir. Connect negative terminal of DC source to the gun. Support gun by a string and a rod accross top of bucket so gun does not contact bucket surfaces. Attach positive terminal to stainless steel utensil which is placed in bucket and supported as was the gun. Electrolysis will draw rust from the gun. Observe progress, and when satisfied, remove from bucket and quickly dry completly perhaps in a 160 degree oven after a good wipe off. Go to a gun shop and get a "bluing kit" to protect gun from further damage. Store in a safe low humidity area.


PS - Hide rust covered Knife or fork from your wife.

won't that disolve any ferrous material in the gun?

 

[wacki]

Originally posted by: Geniere
Try the scientific way. You'll will need a direct current source such as an automobile battery or charger, a plastic bucket, some baking soda, and a piece of stainless steel (kitchen knife, fork...). Make sure the gun is not loaded.

Fill bucket with with one gallon of water. Add about one-half cup of baking soda and stir. Connect negative terminal of DC source to the gun. Support gun by a string and a rod accross top of bucket so gun does not contact bucket surfaces. Attach positive terminal to stainless steel utensil which is placed in bucket and supported as was the gun. Electrolysis will draw rust from the gun. Observe progress, and when satisfied, remove from bucket and quickly dry completly perhaps in a 160 degree oven after a good wipe off. Go to a gun shop and get a "bluing kit" to protect gun from further damage. Store in a safe low humidity area.


PS - Hide rust covered Knife or fork from your wife.

Geniere you've given good advice in the past, and I think I will try this method but I'm wondering if I should try
RustSolve which is supposed to be good for firearms restoration. Turns out acid based rust removal (like naval jelly and vinegar) tends to cause damage to firearms. This website says that your electrolysis method is the ONLY way to go, so maybe I will try that first. But I am curious if it will cause any damage to the gun. From what beemans says, it sounds like the only problem I will have is discoloring the metal if the voltage gets too high. However, it does refer to a problem with some forms of electolysis being too crude for antiques, but doesn't go into detail, which scares me because I like to know all the facts before attempting something. I'm going to research it some more, but thanks for the pointers Geniere. As always you've been a big help.

 

[Geniere]

I may be incorrect, but as I understand it the metal consists of crystaline bonds which must be broken before ionization can occur. This reguires a greater energy than ionizing the rust. So even if the some of the unrusted metal is removed, it would be at a lower rate. I've not used it on a gun, but had good results on some antique mechanical hand tools passed on from my father. I even used to restore my original 1981 IBM PC. The chassis was rusted from years in my basement. The process seems much less damaging than navel gel which really dulls the finish and is hard to get into the nooks and crannies.

 

[wacki]

I think I will try the electric bath method. Any pointers before I start? Recommended voltage? What do you use for a voltage regulator?

 

[Geniere]

I'm fortunate to have a 40vdc-40amp well regulated power supply. I just set it at 20vdc and let the current vary. I don't recall if I've ever tried the constant current mode wherein the voltage would vary to maintain the same current. I think the last time I did it was about 7-8 years ago.

Why not experiment with a piece of rusted metal? If you can get two or more auto batteries, try a series hookup for greater voltage. Don't Rube Golberg the setup. Buy some flexible 14 gauge stranded wire, four medium sized aligator clips, and make two cables about 8 feet long.

I think some hydrogen gas is released, so to avoid ignition sparks, make your last connection and, when done, disconnection away from the bucket as far as possible.

 

[sao123]

I would follow the suggestion of gasoline for a bit, then possibly a treatment of penetrating oil with liquid graphite. Neither of these will damage to iron metal of the gun, but should provide ample cleaning.

I have seen this gun once or twice, and I think this is it here....
http://freespace.virgin.net/tony.crowe/browning%209mm.html
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg17-e.htm

I would start bypouring gasoline down the barrel, until the slide mechanism is full. Let it soak for a while.
-------
**At the very least before performaing any treatment: I would consult your local gunsmith. You local Gander Mountain, or Dicks Sporting Good's, or local Gun Shop should have one available for you.**

 

[Wintermute76]

Sounds like an FN Hi-Power to me also. Not rare as far as I know, but sure to be more valuable being WWII vintage and sentimental value also.

I'd try penetrating oil also, worked wonders on disassembling the stub and flash hider from the STG58 kit I built.

 

[Alptraum]

Originally posted by: Wintermute76
Sounds like an FN Hi-Power to me also. Not rare as far as I know, but sure to be more valuable being WWII vintage and sentimental value also.

I'd try penetrating oil also, worked wonders on disassembling the stub and flash hider from the STG58 kit I built.

It definetly sounds like a high power. They made tons of them in WW2 and have made even more since. One of the more common handguns around the world. I wish I could help on the restoration tips, but I don't know too much about it. The one gun I had restored I took to a gunsmith.

 

[wacki]

Sorry, I've been away for a while, things got a little busy for me for a bit.

I'm getting a voltage regulator setup from a friend and then I will try the electrolsis method.

I tried a little PB Blaster, but had no luck. The gun has rubber/plastic gips on the handle and I'm wondering if they would be ok after a night of soaking in gasoline or not. Not all plastics handle gasoline well, but I'm sure the plastic on this gun does.

Anyway I've included a before pic just to show you what the gun looks like. It's not the Browning HI-Power that you guys have been guessing, and honestly I have no clue what kind of gun it is. Good luck finding out tho. I measured the inside of the Bore and it came out to be 8mm. Thats right 8mm not 9mm. Rather odd, but I don't know if bullets can be squeezed or not.

Side Pic of gun
Grandfathers WWII gun

8mm bore
Bore Pic

If you know the name of the gun please tell me, because I'm clueless.

 

[idgaf13]

I would recommend "Marvel Mystery Oil" as a solvent it is absolutely amazing ,many of my former employers swear by it.
That was when I worked in Plumbing,Heating,Automotive and Machine shops ,a rather diversified group.

Or you may try calling The NRA.
There is a place in Ulster County between Kingston and Woodstock New York just off of Route 28 called Numrich Arms ,they may have changed names,
they sell weapons of all types if you have the correct paperwork you can buy anything you rifle,handgun or explosive you desire.
They have state and federal contracts to supply weapons to various agencies.
When I used to live in the area I had freinds who worked there,very interesting place.

Send me a PM if you need more info about them.

Good Luck

 

[Farmer]

wacki, Wintermute76:

Heh, sound more off topic than highly technical, but what the hell.

I think its a Fabrique Nationale Model 1910/22. Since you measured the barrel to be 8mm in width, the pistol is most likely chambered in .32 ACP (about 7.6mm). The only WWII 8mm cartridge I know of is the 8mm Turkish Mauser, which was a rifle cartridge.

I seriously wouldn't know much about its value, but don't get your hopes up, as this is no .45 Luger. This pistol is still widely used in Europe (I think FN just kept producing these guns, kinda like the M2HB), but since its of WWII origin and of family importance, having it professionally restored wouldn't be too bad. I find it difficult to believe that its in such horrible condition, unless you left it out in the rain for the past 60 years, but then again, I really have no experience with these types of guns.

If you are planning to use it for self-defense purposes, forget it. I don't know much about this pistol's design (its a Browning, so it can't be bad), but its old and its designed for a relatively weak round. I'd say lay down the cash for a nice Springfield 1911 in .45 ACP or maybe a USP or Glock in .40 S&W (these pistols range in price from $400-$1000, I'd say, but all three are extremely rugged, user-safe and reliable).

Its hard pressed to find good photos of the peice, but a quick Google Images search nets you about three (all of which the links are broken):

A Google Images Search for 'FN 1910-22'

On a curious note, I don't believe this peice was in wide service with any national military (perhaps Belgium, I don't know). Do you know which country your grandfather served for in the war?

 

[Lynx516]

Farmer it does help if you READ the first post. I hope you can get this old gun cleaned up wacki

 

[sao123]

I believe Your gun is the Browning 1910 / 1922 a similar model to the HP.
Browning 1910 / 1922
This gun had been manufactured in 2 cartridges. This gun is probably the 9mm Browning Short (9x17mm), also known as .380ACP. It could also be the 7.65mm Browning, also known as .32ACP.

If there is plastic on the gun, staw away from gasoline, that will eat it away. I'm not sure if the electric bath will damage the plastic or not, I havent had much experience in that field. But definately be careful, I have heard that if you use bad (impure) water, the chlorine and minerals in the water can cause further corrosivness.

The penetrating oil / gun oil will not harm plastic if you wish to soak it overnight. However, I found this new product called bore cleaner. It is suposed to be an anti rust agent designed especially for gun metal. Maybe you should look into it also. I have used it to clean my glock, which is 75% plastic and it appears to not harm the rubber or plastic.

Althought to be safe, you could lay the gun so that the handle is up in the air and not soaking in whatever agent you choose, use an empty full size coffee can. Lean the handle up against the side of the can so it isnt soaking.

 

[Farmer]

Lynx516:

Lynx, I believe by identifying the gun, I did answer one of the problems posted by wacki. I was simply suggesting professional restoration, if thats what your commenting about.

 

[Lynx516]

Farmer I was refering to the comment about how the gun got in that state. I was in a bad mood this morning I over reacted.

 

[Wintermute76]

the bore may be 8mm, over the lands is probably the 7.62mm, whatever .32 is. Doesn't make sense, some guns are measures bore dia. some land dia., .38 Special and .357 Mag come to mind.

You should be able to take the grips off to soak in whatever you need, can't imagine a pistol that old having much more plastic than the grips.

Seems to me that all the plastic back then was Bakelite (phenolic?) A little different than the stuff used now days.

Good Luck with getting it back into shape hope it turns out for you.

 

[drag]

If you like it, take to a professional.


They will be able to help you the best, tell you if it is still in workable condition.

More then likely unless you just want it for hardcore sentamental reasons it's probably not worth it. You can probably pick up one in good condition that will work and it would be cheaper.


If you want to retain the apperiance of it then maybe they can put the slide and grips on another similar model and get it looking nicely like that. Or maybe swap out all the small mechanicals and salvage the frame, slides, and grips.