Help me narrow my HT audio search

[DisgruntledVirus]

First off I know HTIB, how could I degrade my Kuro like that. Well I'm cheap and in college and have more important things to spend money on right now (like books) to buy what I would like (Focal 5.1 system with a separates). So for now, I need a system to upgrade my Logitech Z5300's hooked up to my HTPC.

So I think I will get one of two systems either this Onkyo, or this Denon. The Denon I think would give better SQ, but the Onkyo is cheaper.

The Denon (at $500 for a 5.1 HTIB system) is my hard limit, but would like to stay more in the $400 range. I plan to use this system until I graduate college (2+ years) and most likely for 5-7+ years when I get money to buy a real system in a house. If anybody has any better suggestions then either of these two systems I'm open to suggestions .

It will need to be integrated with the current stuff:
Kuro 5080
Sony BDP-550
Cable box
HTPC
Wii and PS2

All of them except the consoles use HDMI so I need 3 HDMI in, and one HDMI out.

EDIT

Well after looking into it some more, I have found out that I can spend about the same amount of money ($400-$450) I can do speakers and a receiver that might be better than the HTIB options listed above. I don't have anywhere I am able to listen to these speakers, but like the sound of Focal (perfect), Paradigm (a little on the bright side), and B&W (also can be a bit bright). While I know I obviously won't get the same level as any of those brands, I am looking for something along those lines.

Receivers:
Denon AVR-588
Onkyo SR506
Onkyo 575
Denon 1708
Marantz 4002
Or could look at Yamaha, Sony, or some other brand. I prefer one of those 3 though.

Speakers:
Boston Acoustic Horizon 100 5.1 system
Dayton 5.1
Onkyo 5.1
Polk 5.1
Something else?

 

[Exterous]

Both are good systems, but I preferred the BA speakers to the Onkyo ones (I have heard both). With the time frame you have in mind I would say spend a bit more money now and be able to enjoy it for longer

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Updated OP

Thanks Exterous

 

[cheesehead]

As a rule of thumb, you need bigger surrounds than you're looking at. Surround-sound only really works if you have a sub-sat crossover point below 100hz, and the drivers you've listed won't do it.

Those Boston Acoustics speakers look to be the best within your price range, but that's like saying "Oh, good! I've got chlamidya, the best of the STDs!" You're not going to be happy with the subwoofer, and none of those speakers appear capable of a sub-100hz crossover point.

That said, if this is in a dorm room, you might want to consider some Beyerdynamic DT770s and run them through the receiver - I'm told that many of them will produce some surprisingly real surround sound through a pair of standard cans. (Remember, you only have two ears.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead
As a rule of thumb, you need bigger surrounds than you're looking at. Surround-sound only really works if you have a sub-sat crossover point below 100hz, and the drivers you've listed won't do it.

Those Boston Acoustics speakers look to be the best within your price range, but that's like saying "Oh, good! I've got chlamidya, the best of the STDs!" You're not going to be happy with the subwoofer, and none of those speakers appear capable of a sub-100hz crossover point.

That said, if this is in a dorm room, you might want to consider some Beyerdynamic DT770s and run them through the receiver - I'm told that many of them will produce some surprisingly real surround sound through a pair of standard cans. (Remember, you only have two ears.

This is in a duplex, and can turn it up a bit. The walls aren't well insulated against sound, and I'm sure they can hear the sound from my Z5300's.

So from that note, should I just keep holding off and spend a bit more? Something like real entry level speakers and do a 2.1/3.1 system to start off, and build from that?

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus

This is in a duplex, and can turn it up a bit. The walls aren't well insulated against sound, and I'm sure they can hear the sound from my Z5300's.

So from that note, should I just keep holding off and spend a bit more? Something like real entry level speakers and do a 2.1/3.1 system to start off, and build from that?

Low noise isolation = go get headphones. The better your subwoofer, the deeper bass it will play, and the more of it will get through the walls. (A 90dB 10khz noise won't get through them at all, while a 90dB 30hz noise will be a major nuisance). The DT770s have many flaws, but bass reproduction is definitely not one of them - these things actually measure as well as most sub-$500 subwoofers.

I suppose you could always go with the Insignia B-2111 coaxial (yes, that's a tweeter,not a dustcap) speakers from Best Buy at $80/pair. Buy a pair and a $120 eBay sub or perhaps the Dayton 12" sub from Parts Express and you'll have a decent 2.1 system for less than $200, which for another $160 can be expanded to 5.1 or 6.1 with two more pairs of speakers.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus

This is in a duplex, and can turn it up a bit. The walls aren't well insulated against sound, and I'm sure they can hear the sound from my Z5300's.

So from that note, should I just keep holding off and spend a bit more? Something like real entry level speakers and do a 2.1/3.1 system to start off, and build from that?

Low noise isolation = go get headphones. The better your subwoofer, the deeper bass it will play, and the more of it will get through the walls. (A 90dB 10khz noise won't get through them at all, while a 90dB 30hz noise will be a major nuisance). The DT770s have many flaws, but bass reproduction is definitely not one of them - these things actually measure as well as most sub-$500 subwoofers.

For the kind of money you're looking to spend, I'd go with Infinitys for the satellites, possibly used. You can get a pair of used Infinity Primuses for under $100, a center channel for $50, and you can get away with the cheap Spherex satellites they sell at Parts Express for $40/pair.

While you really want to keep the left, center, and right speakers "matched" in tonality (and ideally the rear channels), a subwoofer is a subwoofer. Any used Velodyne or Hsu or whatever on eBay will do the job.

I do like my LF's but it's not required right now. I don't need a sub that plays sub-20 hz. In my car I have yet to add a sub, because I don't want sloppy bass that overpowers everything (and I hate rattles, which my car would rattle a lot).

I know a lot about the mid-high end of the audio realm, and have researched a lot into it. I just don't have the cash (or want to spend it) for a HT system that great. I just want something better than the Logitech's to get me by until I can get something to brag about . So for the time being I just need something not bass-heavy, like the Logitech's are, and want something that provides a "crisper" signal. Something "brighter". I could spend up to $1000, but would much prefer not to (and the gf would be against it, because I should use it to throw towards student loans/car/etc). Like I said, I just need something to hold me over a few years until I get some place where I can actually put money into it.

Headphones won't work, because I can't stand wearing them at home. I want speakers for HT unfortunately, so while I would love the DT770's, D2000/5000, AKG K271, etc cans they wouldn't get used. The second reason for speakers is my gf, she won't wear them and we have friends over semi-regularly to watch stuff which also eliminates headphone options.

 

[s44]

Get the Marantz receiver. It's the only one (including the HTIB packages) with HDMI audio, and has the 3 inputs you need. Also, there are pre-outs so you can just add a power amp to upgrade.

Note that it doesn't decode the lossless codecs -- it takes multichannel PCM instead -- but with your Blu-Ray player that doesn't matter.

Edit: Note that Accessories4Less has the Marantz for $300 new and $260 refurb.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: s44
Get the Marantz receiver. It's the only one (including the HTIB packages) with HDMI audio, and has the 3 inputs you need. Also, there are pre-outs so you can just add a power amp to upgrade.

Note that it doesn't decode the lossless codecs -- it takes multichannel PCM instead -- but with your Blu-Ray player that doesn't matter.

Edit: Note that Accessories4Less has the Marantz for $300 new and $260 refurb.

They've got a good deal on a refurb 5002 as well
http://www.accessories4less.co...page=item&id=MARSR5002

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus

I know a lot about the mid-high end of the audio realm, and have researched a lot into it. I just don't have the cash (or want to spend it) for a HT system that great. I just want something better than the Logitech's to get me by until I can get something to brag about . So for the time being I just need something not bass-heavy, like the Logitech's are, and want something that provides a "crisper" signal. Something "brighter". I could spend up to $1000, but would much prefer not to (and the gf would be against it, because I should use it to throw towards student loans/car/etc). Like I said, I just need something to hold me over a few years until I get some place where I can actually put money into it.

What you describe is a simple result of the Logitechs being crap.

Take the subwoofer - it has a huge peak in response around 45hz to 65hz, creating the famous "one-note bass" you'll find in most PC speakers, although you do get quite a lot of it.

Similarly, the single-driver speakers simply don't work very well above 10khz - unless they're pointed dead at you, you won't hear a thing, and even if you do point them right at you they won't sound very good anyway. Furthermore, a combination of tiny box, tiny cone area, and tiny excursion require a 150hz crossover point, which is a major no-no.

The B-2111s aren't exactly high-end, but they're real 2-way speakers with a tweeter and 6" woofer. This means they'll play up to 16khz with good dispersion, and they'll play down to 50hz. There are also a few modifications that can help to improve sound: If you slather bondo over the ridges on the inside of the cabinets to reinforce them and put some more stuffing around the edges of the boxes, you can make them sound better, and if you're feeling really picky you can even swap out the crossovers. (The designer of the new crossovers - Dennis Murphy - also designed the crossover for the successful Salk SongTowers. He knows his stuff.

If you want maximum SQ for minimum dollar, buy three sets of the "Recession Buster" kits from madisound.com. $60 gets you two Vifa aluminum dome tweeters, two Vifa poly cone woofers, and two 2nd-order custom-spec crossovers. Build the boxes yourself, and you can build six channels for $220 (including MDF and glue.)

http://www.madisound.com/catal...o.php?products_id=8525

BTW - I've seen what Focal sells these days. Anything less than $800 would get you speakers that might look a little better, but would sound a lot worse.

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Headphones won't work, because I can't stand wearing them at home. I want speakers for HT unfortunately, so while I would love the DT770's, D2000/5000, AKG K271, etc cans they wouldn't get used. The second reason for speakers is my gf, she won't wear them and we have friends over semi-regularly to watch stuff which also eliminates headphone options.

Your GF has perhaps not tried the Beyerdynamic DT880s. Most comfortable headphones ever.

There's a really simple answer to this problem, too - just get a 4-way headphone distribution amplifier from Guitar Center. Traditionally used to allow multiple musicians to listen in a recording studio, these devices will allow all four people present to listen at a different volume level, all without annoying your neighbors.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Originally posted by: s44
Get the Marantz receiver. It's the only one (including the HTIB packages) with HDMI audio, and has the 3 inputs you need. Also, there are pre-outs so you can just add a power amp to upgrade.

Note that it doesn't decode the lossless codecs -- it takes multichannel PCM instead -- but with your Blu-Ray player that doesn't matter.

Edit: Note that Accessories4Less has the Marantz for $300 new and $260 refurb.

They've got a good deal on a refurb 5002 as well
http://www.accessories4less.co...page=item&id=MARSR5002

So $260 for the 4002 refurb, $300 for 4002 NIB, and $310 for 5002 refurb.

Now I'm not a huge fan of this, BUT I could use any of those with my existing Logitechs until I am able to get real speakers (or find a good deal on some). It's not ideal, nor how I want to do it, but it makes sense from finances. It lets me spend more on receiver for now, and then get speakers when I can. One of the big issue I have is that currently I have to use the speaker bar that came with the Kuro, because I haven't yet been able to get the outputs from the other devices to the PC.

I forgot about those options, thanks guys :beer:, any thoughts on using the Marantz and Logitechs for short term?

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

You could use the z-5300s with the 4002 or 5002. You'd need a few adapters to do it though.

The pre-outs from the receiver (6xRCA for 5.1) would have to get adapters so you could plug in the 3x3.5mm stereo connections for the z-5300 set.

EDIT: like three of these
http://www.cablesforless.com/p...2x-male-rca-plugs.aspx

(I'd have linked you to monoprice, but I didn't see this type on their site... so you'd have to get two of their products to get the correct gender) Unless the 5300s have a set of standard male/male 3.5 stereo cables to connect them as opposed to cables that are hardwired into the set.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead

What you describe is a simple result of the Logitechs being crap.

Yes, but they have served me well for the past 6+ years. I got them in HS, and have served their time dutifully.

Take the subwoofer - it has a huge peak in response around 45hz to 65hz, creating the famous "one-note bass" you'll find in most PC speakers, although you do get quite a lot of it.

Yeah, it's hard to find quality PC speakers without that bass and are well designed.

Similarly, the single-driver speakers simply don't work very well above 10khz - unless they're pointed dead at you, you won't hear a thing, and even if you do point them right at you they won't sound very good anyway. Furthermore, a combination of tiny box, tiny cone area, and tiny excursion require a 150hz crossover point, which is a major no-no.

I didn't know what their upper limit was, but I have noticed that even though I have tried my best to point them right at you sometimes you just can't hear dialog. No tweeter either means that they have to cover a wide range of frequencies, which I know but works for basic sound (if crappy quality).

The B-2111s aren't exactly high-end, but they're real 2-way speakers with a tweeter and 6" woofer. This means they'll play up to 16khz with good dispersion, and they'll play down to 50hz. There are also a few modifications that can help to improve sound: If you slather bondo over the ridges on the inside of the cabinets to reinforce them and put some more stuffing around the edges of the boxes, you can make them sound better, and if you're feeling really picky you can even swap out the crossovers. (The designer of the new crossovers - Dennis Murphy - also designed the crossover for the successful Salk SongTowers. He knows his stuff.

Not a bad idea. I will look into them. Thanks.

If you want maximum SQ for minimum dollar, buy three sets of the "Recession Buster" kits from madisound.com. $60 gets you two Vifa aluminum dome tweeters, two Vifa poly cone woofers, and two 2nd-order custom-spec crossovers. Build the boxes yourself, and you can build six channels for $220 (including MDF and glue.)

http://www.madisound.com/catal...o.php?products_id=8525

Wowie, that would be fun. I'd love to do that, but don't have access to woodworking tools which makes the holes for the front of the enclosure difficult to build (although not impossible). On a 6 channel setup, would I do 3 front and 3 rear (left/center/right) or would I do it another way (like just a 5 channel)?

BTW - I've seen what Focal sells these days. Anything less than $800 would get you speakers that might look a little better, but would sound a lot worse.

Yeah I wasn't a huge fan of the Sib and Co when I auditioned them previously. I'd rather spend the money and get into the 716's and bookshelf surrounds from the 7xx series. The 8xx series is really where I would like to get (namely the 836's), but alas I don't have $2.5k for speakers right now

Your GF has perhaps not tried the Beyerdynamic DT880s. Most comfortable headphones ever.

There's a really simple answer to this problem, too - just get a 4-way headphone distribution amplifier from Guitar Center. Traditionally used to allow multiple musicians to listen in a recording studio, these devices will allow all four people present to listen at a different volume level, all without annoying your neighbors.

She won't wear cans. No matter how comfortable they are. With 2 dogs cables are avoided, but more importantly she hates them (not to mention doesn't see the point in higher end audio). If it were just me I would definitely think about headphones, but since I live with her there is no way she will wear them and would rather just listen to the Kuro's 5080 sound bar.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
You could use the z-5300s with the 4002 or 5002. You'd need a few adapters to do it though.

The pre-outs from the receiver (6xRCA for 5.1) would have to get adapters so you could plug in the 3x3.5mm stereo connections for the z-5300 set.

EDIT: like three of these
http://www.cablesforless.com/p...2x-male-rca-plugs.aspx

(I'd have linked you to monoprice, but I didn't see this type on their site... so you'd have to get two of their products to get the correct gender) Unless the 5300s have a set of standard male/male 3.5 stereo cables to connect them as opposed to cables that are hardwired into the set.

They have a standard 3 wire male/male cable from the PC>amp on the sub. So I need a male RCA>female stereo plug to use that cable OR a male RCA>male stereo plug to plug directly into the sub.

EDIT: since the cable isn't hard wired into the logitech's I believe these from monoprice would work correct?

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Ok, in that case then either method should get you the capability to continue to use the 5300s.

I believe if you did this you'd want to set the receiver up for 5.1 configuration but then set the speakers to "large" so that the 5300's crossover would be controlling bass management from the satellites.

EDIT: Yes, those should work.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Ok, in that case then either method should get you the capability to continue to use the 5300s.

I believe if you did this you'd want to set the receiver up for 5.1 configuration but then set the speakers to "large" so that the 5300's crossover would be controlling bass management from the satellites.

EDIT: Yes, those should work.

I think I will do it that way for now then. I *may* get the RB-Kit speakers in the near future, but will wait for tax return to do speakers and see how much that is.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

I don't remember how monoprice is with combined shipping of small items, but you might want to think about picking up other cables you'll eventually need at the same time.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
I don't remember how monoprice is with combined shipping of small items, but you might want to think about picking up other cables you'll eventually need at the same time.

I've already had stuff planned for a while, so this just gives me a reason to order everything now .

HDMI, Toslink, speaker wire, RCA>stereo, etc

Maybe I'm weird but cables get me all hot and bothered.... They are so sexy for some reason.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Even the monoprice variety?

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Is there a difference between Optical SPDIF and Coaxial SPDIF for audio? For example going from the cable box to the receiver, do they both send the same signal?

Also just to be sure the Marantz CAN play HDMI audio? So for example the blu-ray player to the receiver via HDMI only will work correct?

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Even the monoprice variety?

Oh yes.

Especially these.

:music:
I jizzed in my pants....
:music:

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Is there a difference between Optical SPDIF and Coaxial SPDIF for audio? For example going from the cable box to the receiver, do they both send the same signal?

Also just to be sure the Marantz CAN play HDMI audio? So for example the blu-ray player to the receiver via HDMI only will work correct?

Both will work just fine. There are potentially some advantages to either cable type, but you should be set with either one.

Yes, they can do linear PCM over HDMI for audio.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Marantz 4002 NIB or 5002 refurb for about same price?

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Well ordered the Marantz 5002, should be here Friday

Also ordered cables, and should be here Friday as well