Help me help you get me a guitar

erwin1978

Golden Member
Jun 22, 2001
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I wanna get my first guitar and I want it to be electric. I've been doing some extensive research online for the last few weeks and learning some guitar-speak. Now, I know where G-string comes from.

I went to a local SamAsh store and saw a used Schecter Papa Roach Signature guitar for $250. It had dual EMG humbuckers from what I can tell, and a Floyd Rose tremolo. A giant roach emblem on the front and at the 12th fret. I don't know what year it is.

I plan to come back fully loaded with guitar lingo know-how, but I need further advice from folks who know something about bargaining with guitar sales people. What are the dos and don'ts of the art? Guitar sales people should share me their thoughts.
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,920
2,161
126
1) DON'T get a guitar with a tremolo for your first guitar. Especially a lower priced one. You'll have problems with it going out of tune all the time and they tend to get in the way. You'll regret it.

2) Guitars are priced objectively. Check around what other people are charging, see what the model is new, and then you'll have some leverage to work with.

3) If you're just starting, don't go overboard with an amp. We're all big fans of the Roland Cube series here.
 

Mrvile

Lifer
Oct 16, 2004
14,066
1
0
If you're just starting, the guitar you get is not going to matter, as a beginner it's all going to sound the same. Find one that you like the look of, one that's priced nicely (and a nice name that makes budget guitars like Fender or Ibanez), a cheap practice amp that has distortion, and get practicing.
 

Platypus

Lifer
Apr 26, 2001
31,046
321
136
Here are some basics:

1) The quality of your guitar and amplifier will get better the more you spend on them up to a certain point. In essence, you get what you pay for.

2) The quality of your first guitar/amplifier do not need to be spectacular as you likely won't know where the extra money went until you reach a certain talent level. That being said, don't get the cheap guitars that come in a package with an amp, the 'house brands' Sam Ash likes to hock, etc. If you're serious about the hobby invest in a cheap yet decent quality model. We can make suggestions based on the kind of music you like to play. I just see too many people trying to start guitar and get something that sounds so bad that they get frustrated and give up, when a little bit more invested could have went a long way.

3) Before you buy any guitar from a store like that, google the name/model and find out what 'online' vendors are charging for it as well as what they go for on ebay. Have this knowledge on hand. I have to say that for the most part, guitars are priced pretty much across the board for a new model, what can get you is the used price of a guitar however. This can be easily found on the internet and you shouldn't pay any more than that.

4) As far as bartering for a guitar, as long as you have the used price info you can easily say, "I really don't want to spend that much for this, I can get this online for cheaper, thanks for your time." I'd say most times they'll say "ok" and won't budge on it because I'm assuming that most commission based employees don't have the authority to knock the price down. This is my experience with it though, I'm not saying you should expect it. It's always worth trying to barter.. worst they can say is "No." What you CAN however get away with and I've done it for every guitar I've purchased through a store (usually through a private retailer, as I tend to avoid chain guitar vendors) is getting new strings put on it and having it set up. Most respectable vendors will fix any problems with the guitar like intonation, neck adjustments for fret buzzing and/or warped neck, crackling in the potentiometers (the knobs on the guitar), etc.

5) You should look for any of the following things when picking out a guitar:
a) Buzzing frets. Play every note on every string all the way up the guitar neck right in the middle of the fret and listen for vibration/buzzing sounds. A lot of times in chain stores like Sam Ash, all the 13 year old kids who love to play slipknot have systematically destroyed the setup of the guitar you're playing. This can be easily fixed by the dealer but you need to make note of it to inform them.
b) Plug in the guitar to an amp in a private room if possible. Dime the amp and test for how well the notes sing out. Sudden loss of sustain (how long you can hold the note before it chokes out), notes that seem to go out of tune, notes that 'fret out' or don't sound out as fully as they should are all things to look for. These can be fixed with a proper bridge setup and/or re-intonation.
c) Look down the neck of the guitar for signs of warping or improper curving. This is something that a novice probably won't be able to notice all that much but it's presence may give way to the problems to look for I talked about earlier.
d) Strings are very important to the feel and tone of your guitar. Old strings (which have rust, rough spots, dark areas) have been man-handled by swarms of people and the instruments in a big chain shop are not taken care of at all.. If the guitar sounds 'lifeless' and shows signs of any of those things above, ask them for a new set of strings or better yet, ask for it to be restrung before you purchase it.

6) After you have a guitar picked out, you'll want an amplifier as well. In the entry level price range, the sound isn't going to be awe-inspiring I can promise you that. In general, vacuum tube amplifiers will generally eat the shorts of any solid state amplifier but they are defently not cheap. Your first amp will most likely be solid state. I tend to tell people to avoid amps with onboard effects as they're generally terrible and you can do a lot better for under 50 bucks in a stomp box distortion pedal et al. The Roland Cube amp that Fritzo mentioned is a damn fine amp for the money and is perfect for beginners. It will give you reasonably good tone, portability and resale.

7) If you plan on using pedals, make sure you get enough cabling to accomodate.
Purchase a tuner when you buy the guitar. Inexpensive guitars typically don't use the best materials so your guitar probably wont keep tune very well. This is a cheap investment as well and keeps you sounding good consistantly.

8) And most importantly, PRACTICE! A lot of people get hung up in trying to get all these features and don't spend time learning. You WILL be frustrated up front and you will want to quit until you reach a significant breakthrough in your learning. This is very common and not meant as a deterrant but more a friendly warning. For me when I started, I would reach a point where I felt like I couldn't get out of a rut and then I'd figure something out that would make me rethink my entire technique! I suggest learning some of your favorite songs to the point of being able to nail them. A lot of technique can be picked up in this fashion. Play diverse styles of music and don't get to the point where it isn't fun anymore. If you get frustrated, put down your guitar and walk away for a while. Your fingers will callous up more as you continuie to practice daily and you will get faster and better. It depends on your level of commitment and if you have a natural talent for music.. as this makes it much easier to learn.

I think that should get you started, if you have any questions there are lots of guitar players on this board who can help you out. Let us know what kind of sound you're going for so we can suggest a guitar better suited for it. Have fun!
 

imported_Lucifer

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2004
5,139
1
0
1) DON'T get a guitar with a tremolo for your first guitar. Especially a lower priced one. You'll have problems with it going out of tune all the time and they tend to get in the way. You'll regret it.

Although I agree that you should not get a guitar with a Floyd Rose, tuning problems are not an issue with a Floyd Rose. If you know how to use one, it will stay in tune for month after month. A floyd rose isn't rocket science.

As for a trem that you see on a Fender, or a Bigbsy trem, you can expect those to constantly go out of tune. But not with a Floyd.
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,920
2,161
126
8) And most importantly, PRACTICE! A lot of people get hung up in trying to get all these features and don't spend time learning. You WILL be frustrated up front and you will want to quit until you reach a significant breakthrough in your learning.

I get like that once a week! :D I'm studying under a master guitarist right now, and he'll show me something amazing, then I can't do it. Suddenly, 3 weeks later, I start to get it down, and then BINGO!

The rhythm section of the Allman Brother's "You Don't Love Me" nearly made me throw my guitar out the window becuase I couldn't get those damn 16th beat notes :|
Here's a clip of the b@stard.

When I get like this, I drop it and play something I enjoy
For example...

I'll come back to it later and then try it again. The rewards come from all the frustraition you put in :)

 

Platypus

Lifer
Apr 26, 2001
31,046
321
136
Originally posted by: Fritzo
8) And most importantly, PRACTICE! A lot of people get hung up in trying to get all these features and don't spend time learning. You WILL be frustrated up front and you will want to quit until you reach a significant breakthrough in your learning.

I get like that once a week! :D I'm studying under a master guitarist right now, and he'll show me something amazing, then I can't do it. Suddenly, 3 weeks later, I start to get it down, and then BINGO!

The rhythm section of the Allman Brother's "You Don't Love Me" nearly made me throw my guitar out the window becuase I couldn't get those damn 16th beat notes :|
Here's a clip of the b@stard.

When I get like this, I drop it and play something I enjoy
For example...

I'll come back to it later and then try it again. The rewards come from all the frustraition you put in :)


Exactly! I just got some new gear in yesterday and one will be ready in late sept from the builder. I made some sweet sounding stuff with the new one I got yesterday. It's a EH deluxe memory man which does analog delay, echo, chorus and vibratto. It creates the most lush soundscapes and ambient textures that are seriously mind absorbing. I sat on the floor with it for an hour before I realized all that time had passed. It's a knob-twiddler for sure and me being as OCD as I am it's perfect for me.
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,920
2,161
126
Exactly! I just got some new gear in yesterday and one will be ready in late sept from the builder. I made some sweet sounding stuff with the new one I got yesterday. It's a EH deluxe memory man which does analog delay, echo, chorus and vibratto. It creates the most lush soundscapes and ambient textures that are seriously mind absorbing. I sat on the floor with it for an hour before I realized all that time had passed. It's a knob-twiddler for sure and me being as OCD as I am it's perfect for me.

I'd love to get a hold of a decent analog delay. I'm more of a "separate pedal" guy though- the all in one things tend to get out of hand for me :)
 

Platypus

Lifer
Apr 26, 2001
31,046
321
136
Originally posted by: Fritzo
Exactly! I just got some new gear in yesterday and one will be ready in late sept from the builder. I made some sweet sounding stuff with the new one I got yesterday. It's a EH deluxe memory man which does analog delay, echo, chorus and vibratto. It creates the most lush soundscapes and ambient textures that are seriously mind absorbing. I sat on the floor with it for an hour before I realized all that time had passed. It's a knob-twiddler for sure and me being as OCD as I am it's perfect for me.

I'd love to get a hold of a decent analog delay. I'm more of a "separate pedal" guy though- the all in one things tend to get out of hand for me :)


Yeah me too, this is probably one of the best analog delay pedals on the market. It actually lets you adust the pitch of the delay on the fly with the knobs. It isn't overly complex like those 'all in one' units, it's actually just one effect, variable modulation. The fact that it does all those effects is just whether you dial it like that.. kind of hard to explain but it's def the best analog delay I've heard in a commercial pedal, better than a maxon ad9 even. I'll send you a clip if you're interested
 

erwin1978

Golden Member
Jun 22, 2001
1,654
10
81
I was studying pictures of the Floyd Rose tremolo yesterday to see how it works. It looks too mechanical and needs to be redesigned if you ask me. It almost look like a prototype. So, the entire thing pivots on two screws? The Ibanez S470 looked much better and pivots on a hinge I believe.

After seeing JerryC's rendition of Canon in D Major I was on a mission to learn electric guitar. I also like I'm Alright. That's the type of sound I want on my guitar. Check the lower links how many people are doing JerryC's Canon.

Since I live in an apartment I pretty much plan to play with headphones for the meantime. I was wondering if I can just hook up the guitar to a distortion pedal without the need for an amp since I won't be using the speakers anyway? Plus pedals are cheap. How involved is it to hook up the guitar to a computer and use a software amp instead?

When you say check for fret buzz, you mean check for strings slapping the frets when plucked?

Can I really bargain with Sam Ash? I mean they have an online store where the price is pretty much set in stone if you order online.
 

imported_Lucifer

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2004
5,139
1
0
I was studying pictures of the Floyd Rose tremolo yesterday to see how it works. It looks too mechanical and needs to be redesigned if you ask me. It almost look like a prototype. So, the entire thing pivots on two screws? The Ibanez S470 looked much better and pivots on a hinge I believe.

The ZR bridge trem is on two screws too. If you really think the FLoyd rose needs to be redesigned, then you really shouldn't bother with one. Not even a ZR bridge. It's all whether you know how to use one or not. And it is not hard at all. Don't let the looks scare you, or the opinions of others scare you. The one's who bad mouth a floyd rose usually are one's who can't use them. No I am not a floyd rose fanboy. I used to bad mouth them too. I have owned 2 previous floyded guitars. I really learned how to use the FLoyd on an RG470. But my main guitar has a tune o matic bridge.

Can I really bargain with Sam Ash? I mean they have an online store where the price is pretty much set in stone if you order online.

I really don't think Sam Ash is one of those places to bargain with. They probably won't go lower than retail, but it's worth a shot.
 

Platypus

Lifer
Apr 26, 2001
31,046
321
136
Originally posted by: erwin1978
I was studying pictures of the Floyd Rose tremolo yesterday to see how it works. It looks too mechanical and needs to be redesigned if you ask me. It almost look like a prototype. So, the entire thing pivots on two screws? The Ibanez S470 looked much better and pivots on a hinge I believe.

After seeing JerryC's rendition of Canon in D Major I was on a mission to learn electric guitar. I also like I'm Alright. That's the type of sound I want on my guitar. Check the lower links how many people are doing JerryC's Canon.

Since I live in an apartment I pretty much plan to play with headphones for the meantime. I was wondering if I can just hook up the guitar to a distortion pedal without the need for an amp since I won't be using the speakers anyway? Plus pedals are cheap. How involved is it to hook up the guitar to a computer and use a software amp instead?

When you say check for fret buzz, you mean check for strings slapping the frets when plucked?

Can I really bargain with Sam Ash? I mean they have an online store where the price is pretty much set in stone if you order online.


Yeah I wouldn't bother with trying to barter with a chain like that, I've gotten new strings out of them, that's about it.

Fret buzz will be obvious, hold the fret right in the middle and pick the note.. it will be very obvious if you hear a buzzing sound.

There are lots of cheap devices for connecting a guitar to your computer with effects, the Line6 company has a lot of products like this.
 

erwin1978

Golden Member
Jun 22, 2001
1,654
10
81
What are the ways to connect the guitar to a PC so I can use a software amp modeller?
 

Nutdotnet

Diamond Member
Dec 5, 2000
7,721
3
81
MiM Fender Strat

Pretty hard to beat for a first guitar...I'm not a fan of strat's personally, but...for the price...the Made in Mexico ones are pretty hard to beat.
 

ModeEngage

Senior member
Jul 14, 2001
832
0
76
www.mode-engage.net
Originally posted by: Fritzo
1) DON'T get a guitar with a tremolo for your first guitar. Especially a lower priced one. You'll have problems with it going out of tune all the time and they tend to get in the way. You'll regret it.

QFTMFT.

My first guitar was/is a Jackson with a Floyd Rose. I can't stand the damn tremolo, it makes me wonder what the hell I was thinking :(. Go for a nice fixed bridge...anything really, whatever feels good to you.
 

jlbenedict

Banned
Jul 10, 2005
3,724
0
0
Originally posted by: erwin1978
What are the ways to connect the guitar to a PC so I can use a software amp modeller?

Either,

1) USB audio interface, with 1/4" guitar input or;

2) Firewire audio interface, with 1/4" guitar input or;

3) Cheap desktop mixer, then, line-out to line-in on sound card

There are numerous other devices and ways..

I use the M-Audio Black Box ($199). Its an all-in-one, effects processor, amp modeler, and audio interface in one box. It has a preset, where I can bypass all the models and effects, and just send the dry guitar signal to my computer. The dry signal then could be used for your software amp modeling.




 

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
7,052
0
0
my advice, don't buy an electric to start out on. Buy a quality mid-range acoustic guitar, not a cheap one because you will outgrow it in a few months. I suggest learning on an acoustic first because it will undoubtedly make you a better player as you will develop better finger strength and will have a greater understanding of the guitar itself in my opinion.

From there get some beginner guitar books and get to work. I suggest you learn your music theory, as this is the only way you will ever progress (yes that means learning scales, modes, and all that boring crap). Also, buy a metronome and always use it when you practice.

If you are very serious about this I suggest getting private lessons. You will learn far quicker than if you try and teach yourself.
 

Molondo

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2005
2,529
1
0
Guitars are priced objectively. Check around what other people are charging

He is right. When i was on the verge of buying a flamenco guitar. I found a model just perfect that i wanted to get. Two different stores had the same model, one was selling it at 540$ and the other at 799$. Its absurd. So keep an eye out.
 

erwin1978

Golden Member
Jun 22, 2001
1,654
10
81
In terms of latency, which is the prefered port to connect too: usb, midi, firewire, etc?
 

Buck Armstrong

Platinum Member
Dec 17, 2004
2,015
1
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Originally posted by: Fritzo
1) DON'T get a guitar with a tremolo for your first guitar. Especially a lower priced one. You'll have problems with it going out of tune all the time and they tend to get in the way. You'll regret it.

2) If you're just starting, don't go overboard with an amp. We're all big fans of the Roland Cube series here.

1. Not true, but still good advice. As long as its double-locking (Floyd or licensed Floyd), the tremolo will stay in tune even longer than a hardtail, and will be much easier to tune in general (locking nut and micro-tuners). However, restringing and setup will be an impossible nightmare for a novice (changing one string at a time, setting intonation and action, etc.), and for that reason, I agree your first guitar should not have a tremolo.

2. I totally agree on the Cubes. DO NOT get a cheap amp, even if its your first, or you will quickly be discouraged. But Roland Cubes are so damn versatile; with 8-9 amp models, a beautiful clean channel, all the distortion you could possibly want without a dedicated pedal, lots of headroom (sounds great even at low volumes), and surprisingly good digital EFX, you can get any tone you want, metal, vintage, jazz, you name it. IMO, the Cube is the best modeller available. I'd recommend a Cube 30 for a beginner, but if you can't afford the $200, a Cube 15 or even MicroCube will definitely do the job.

I have a Cube 60, and unless I ever decide to spend the cash for a tube, I'll never need another amp.
 

Buck Armstrong

Platinum Member
Dec 17, 2004
2,015
1
0
Originally posted by: n30
Originally posted by: Fritzo
1) DON'T get a guitar with a tremolo for your first guitar. Especially a lower priced one. You'll have problems with it going out of tune all the time and they tend to get in the way. You'll regret it.

QFTMFT.

My first guitar was/is a Jackson with a Floyd Rose. I can't stand the damn tremolo, it makes me wonder what the hell I was thinking :(. Go for a nice fixed bridge...anything really, whatever feels good to you.

What model Jackson? I have a 2006 transparent red DK2, with real Seymour Duncans and black hardware. :cool:

You just need to learn how to set up the bridge yourself; once you do it right, its fast and easy. Set the micro-tuners to middle height, string it, tune it, lock the nut, set the action how you like it, and then check intonation. After that, all you'll ever need to touch are the micro-tuners. So just ask a tech at your local guitar store to walk you through it once, and then you'll love your Floyd...I promise.
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,920
2,161
126
Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong
Originally posted by: Fritzo
1) DON'T get a guitar with a tremolo for your first guitar. Especially a lower priced one. You'll have problems with it going out of tune all the time and they tend to get in the way. You'll regret it.

2) If you're just starting, don't go overboard with an amp. We're all big fans of the Roland Cube series here.

1. Not true, but still good advice. As long as its double-locking (Floyd or licensed Floyd), the tremolo will stay in tune even longer than a hardtail, and will be much easier to tune in general (locking nut and micro-tuners). However, restringing and setup will be an impossible nightmare for a novice (changing one string at a time, setting intonation and action, etc.), and for that reason, I agree your first guitar should not have a tremolo.

2. I totally agree on the Cubes. DO NOT get a cheap amp, even if its your first, or you will quickly be discouraged. But Roland Cubes are so damn versatile; with 8-9 amp models, a beautiful clean channel, all the distortion you could possibly want without a dedicated pedal, lots of headroom (sounds great even at low volumes), and surprisingly good digital EFX, you can get any tone you want, metal, vintage, jazz, you name it. IMO, the Cube is the best modeller available. I'd recommend a Cube 30 for a beginner, but if you can't afford the $200, a Cube 15 or even MicroCube will definitely do the job.

I have a Cube 60, and unless I ever decide to spend the cash for a tube, I'll never need another amp.

He's not going to get a good quality double locking tremolo in that price range :) As far as electric/acoustic, that's up in the air. I say an electric as it's easier on your fingers, and you won't want to quit right away from fingertip brusing. I started on an acoustic, but I feel I would have played more early on if I had an electric.

I love my Microcube so much, I use it as a head for my vintage Traynor amp! It has an output on the back, and I set the Cube up about 1/3 volume/ 1/2 gain, then I use the Traynor to juice up the sound. Works pretty well. It's a cheap way to rig up a stack until I for over the cash for a Marshall one of these years ;)
 

imported_Lucifer

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2004
5,139
1
0
Would be nice to have a sweet ass Marshall, like a JCM 900 combo. I use a 1993 Marshall Valvestate. Nice amp, but I already want something else. Too bad Marshall's are so damn expensive. The price sways me away, so my next amp would probably be a Carvin.
 

RapidSnail

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2006
4,257
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If possible, try to spend as much money as you can on your guitar. You get what you pay for.