Help Me Figure Out Why this New System is Crashing

[Operandi]

I built this system for a local business, it replaced a 7 year old P4 based E-machine (pretty impressive for a E-machine). It didn't have to run anything at intensive so the specs are very modest; just run a patient database so it just had to be reliable and stable and for about a month it was.

The problem is the system is randomly restarting. They also say they have problems getting the system to get to the desktop, they said its taken as many as 6 reboots to get it up. I've made 2 stops to check it out, and at the first stop (a week ago) we couldn't get it to reproduce the problem even with dozens of reboots and several cold boots, it started fine each time and I wacthed them enter data into their customer database. At the 2nd stop (this Tuesday) it automatically rebooted after the windows login at the first boot but it wouldn't do it again after several reboots.

I now have the machine for a couple of days and on first boot it hangup again after login but it didn't restart, it was a solid light blue screen with no text (very odd) not a Blue Screen of Death so something is clearly wrong.

Here are the spces.

Motherboard: Biostar A740G M2+ v6 / AMD 740G
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 LE-1600 2.2GHZ
RAM: 2GB x1 Wintec AMPO DDR2 667
Hard Drive: 160GB Maxtor DiamondMax 21 SATA
Optical: LG 20x DVD +- RW SATA (I can't imagine this is relevant but.....)
PSU: 300 watt Forton-Source FSP300-60GLN (Green power series)
OS: Windows XP Home SP3 (I reused their old E-machine key)

The tests I've run.

Orthos: for 36 hours prior to delivery, 30 mins on site, no errors. Running right now as I write this for about 2 hours, again no errors.
MEMTest86: 12 Hours prior to delivery, at least 2 full passes on site.
Windows check disk: No file system errors.

I haven't tested the GPU, should I bother, what should I test with (ATI Tool doesn't support the 740G GPU).

It passes Orthos and MEMTest86 no problem so I have to think the CPU, RAM, and motherboard are OK. Usually the system crashes/hangs on boot up so that leads to to think there is an I/O problem perhaps a bad hard drive? Bad SATA cable, is that even possible? Is the DiamondMax 21 a problematic drive?

My current plan is to run windows update (the computer was isolated from the internet) then run Spinrite to throughly go over the drive, after that I'm not sure where to look next. I have the Ultimate Boot CD but I'm pretty new to most of its tools.

Any recommendations for Hard Drive diagnostic tools or general ideas where to look next would be appreciated.

 

[DSF]

The PSU is always a suspect in flaky PC operation. Do you have a spare you could test with?

The Ultimate Boot CD does contain a number of hard drive diagnostics, most of them manufacturer specific. The image is a free download if you google Ultimate Boot CD or UBCD.

 

[Operandi]

I should have at least 2 stock InWins but I can't find them, all I can find are some old FSPs. I'm not sure if they would be very good test units due to the lack of the 24 pin ATX connector.

As far as UBCD, I already have it, I'm just not very familiar with its tools (there seems to be a ton).

 

[KGB]

I have a couple of thoughts:

1. Overheating. What are the temps?

2. Bad RAM. Test it again.

3. Bad PSU. Find a comparable one to test with.

Is anything getting logged into Event Viewer?

 

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: KGBMAN
1. Overheating. What are the temps?

It's definitely not heat related. The most common problem is crashing and restarting from a cold boot, too soon for heat to be a problem.

Also I just had it running Orthos for 2 hours, no errors. I will however check the temps just to confirm.

Originally posted by: KGBMAN
2. Bad RAM. Test it again.

It passes MEMTest86 and Orthos, what else can I throw at it?

Originally posted by: KGBMAN
3. Bad PSU. Find a comparable one to test with.

That is on my list.

Originally posted by: KGBMAN
Is anything getting logged into Event Viewer?

I will check that along with the CPU temp tomorrow. Right now there is about 6 hours left in a Spinrite pass.

 

[KGB]

Originally posted by: Operandi

Originally posted by: KGBMAN
1. Overheating. What are the temps?

It's definitely not heat related. The most common problem is crashing and restarting from a cold boot, too soon for heat to be a problem.

Also I just had it running Orthos for 2 hours, no errors. I will however check the temps just to confirm.

Originally posted by: KGBMAN
2. Bad RAM. Test it again.

It passes MEMTest86 and Orthos, what else can I throw at it?

Originally posted by: KGBMAN
3. Bad PSU. Find a comparable one to test with.

That is on my list.

Originally posted by: KGBMAN
Is anything getting logged into Event Viewer?

I will check that along with the CPU temp tomorrow. Right now there is about 6 hours left in a Spinrite pass.

Your're on the right track. Did you run MemTest after you took the system back? From your OP it implied that you ran it before you delivered it.

 

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: KGBMANYour're on the right track. Did you run MemTest after you took the system back? From your OP it implied that you ran it before you delivered it.

I can't say for sure that I ran it when it was brand new but I know I let it complete at least two passes when I stopped in at their clinic to check it out. Now that I have it I'm going to run it again but I have don't have any expectations for it to find anything.

 

[KGB]

Originally posted by: Operandi

Originally posted by: KGBMANYour're on the right track. Did you run MemTest after you took the system back? From your OP it implied that you ran it before you delivered it.

I can't say for sure that I ran it when it was brand new but I know I let it complete at least two passes when I stopped in at their clinic to check it out. Now that I have it I'm going to run it again but I have don't have any expectations for it to find anything.

Keep in mind that whenever you transport a system, the DIMMs can get jarred slightly.
This can make the difference between stability and BSODs.

Just trying to impart some of my experience here.

 

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: KGBMAN
Keep in mind that whenever you transport a system, the DIMMs can get jarred slightly.
This can make the difference between stability and BSODs.

Just trying to impart some of my experience here.

Yeah, the SATA cable came loose when I initially dropped the machine off, of course that just caused the machine to not boot. Easy fix.

This is truly one of the strangest circumstances I've come across. Why would a machine that can run Orthos, and MEMTest for hours have problems with random reboots with simple mundane work loads? It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Insomniator]

It does that because for a local business and machine you have to support, getting an intel chip and an intel board is the only way to go.

And that is not a knock on AMD.

As for something useful to suggest... it could be some driver issues that show up randomly. Try the newest bios also.

 

[Blain]

Here's what I would do if I didn't want to spend the next month playing around with it...
* Get away from the Maxtor "value" HD and buy a WD "Black".
* Like others have said, slap in a "quality" PS.
* Reload Windows after HD & PS replaced.
* Run the PC behind an APC LE1200 (plenty of buffer).

 

[KGB]

Originally posted by: Blain
Here's what I would do if I didn't want to spend the next month playing around with it...
* Get away from the Maxtor "value" HD and buy a WD "Black".
* Like others have said, slap in a "quality" PS.
* Reload Windows after HD & PS replaced.
* Run the PC behind an APC LE1200 (plenty of buffer).

Good suggestions all. Especially the WD Black HD and the UPS.


Insomniator has a certain kernel of truth. While mixing and matching components for your personal systems is fun, for a customer system going with an Intel CPU and Intel (brand) MB gets you instant stability right out of the box. I'm not saying that the other systems are inherently unstable or incompatable (some ARE), but for those who do this for a living time IS money and the Intel solution gives you a better chance at making money rather than losing it. When I deliver a system, I hope I never hear from that customer again until they want another.

To the OP, let us know what you find.

 

[Operandi]

I'm going to be gone for the rest of the day so I'll let MEMTest run while I'm gone and I'll check up on it later tonight when I get back.

Originally posted by: KGBMAN
Good suggestions all. Especially the WD Black HD and the UPS.

Really? Spinerite came back with a clean bill of health.

They had the machine on a UPS at the clinic, utility power would not seem to be a problem now that I've seen it crash here at home.

 

[Crusty]

The biggest problem I see is the lack of quality parts. Building on a budget does not mean you can use crappy parts, it just means you have to be more mindful about what you put in there.

Biostar boards are crap. As another poster mentioned for rock solid stability with little frills Intel CPU's + Intel boards are extremely solid and stable for desktop machines. I've never even heard of that brand of RAM, there are plenty of well known inexpensive brands and many other high end brands that produce inexpensive lines.

 

[pugh]

Oh yeah Crusty? Biostar is Crap? So you have used and tested the new x58 board they have with the new Intel I7 chip and you have concluded they are crap????

Seriously, was this just a off the cuff statement backed up with no facts??

I have a spare box running a Biostar board that has been nothing but stable going on 2 years. I have used them from time to time with peoples builds and not oen complaint.

 

[Crusty]

Originally posted by: pugh
Oh yeah Crusty? Biostar is Crap? So you have used and tested the new x58 board they have with the new Intel I7 chip and you have concluded they are crap????

Seriously, was this just a off the cuff statement backed up with no facts??

I have a spare box running a Biostar board that has been nothing but stable going on 2 years. I have used them from time to time with peoples builds and not oen complaint.

Biostar boards are just as bad as ECS boards. They use cheap capacitors and have poor layouts. It's not off the cuff as my experience has always been less then stellar with Biostar boards. They are "cheap" for a reason.

 

[pugh]

Right your experience. Which is why I knew your were making a "off the cuff" comment. More times than not it the user who is having the problem not the hardware.

So have you tested and ran a x58 biostar board with the new mem and intel chip included?

 

[Crusty]

Originally posted by: pugh
Right your experience. Which is why I knew your were making a "off the cuff" comment. More times than not it the user who is having the problem not the hardware.

So have you tested and ran a x58 biostar board with the new mem and intel chip included?

So what makes your experience more "on the cuff" then mine? And no I haven't tested the new x58 boards because I have no reason to. I buy parts for the job, and for a business setting cheaping out on parts won't get you very far and neither will buying cutting edge parts with little market exposure. Stability is by far the most important part for a business setting, and if you want ultimate stability Intel made motherboards paired with Intel CPU's can't be touched. On top of that, you always get a nice Intel onboard NIC which have been the best performing NIC chipsets for quite some time.

If you want to talk about gaming machines or servers, that's a whole different ballgame.

 

[pugh]

It is not my experience that we are discussing but your broad stroke comment that is based upon no facts other than the troubles you had.

You see, it would be the same as me blurting out that Asus Mobo's are crap when I probably have never used them or I have yet to test their new products.

Your saying nothing new to me about building .Been there and done that for many years.. Business or none business.

But yes I was talking for gaming. For instance the reference I gave you to the above mentioned board. But you do know even in business they do used cheap integrated mobo's too?

I doubt many business's would use a almost 269.00 board.

My point is use facts.

 

[pugh]

Hey we can take it to pm's if needed. Don't want to continue a long dialogue in this man's need of help.

 

[Crusty]

Originally posted by: pugh
It is not my experience that we are discussing but your broad stroke comment that is based upon no facts other than the troubles you had.

You see, it would be the same as me blurting out that Asus Mobo's are crap when I probably have never used them or I have yet to test their new products.

Your saying nothing new to me about building .Been there and done that for many years.. Business or none business.

But yes I was talking for gaming. For instance the reference I gave you to the above mentioned board. But you do know even in business they do used cheap integrated mobo's too?

I doubt many business's would use a almost 269.00 board.

My point is use facts.

Yes I know what people use in business, considering I've been building custom workstations for the various tasks I do at work for 5+ years. We have cheap machines(we even use an ECS board) and powerful 8 Core 32GB RAM workstations.

As far as gaming goes, the OP is not asking about that. He's asking about a BUSINESS machine that runs their ENTIRE business. Tell me that's not important. In the first paragraph he mentions reliability and stability as the most important concerns.

I make one comment about a board manuf being bad, if you actually bother reading what I have to say you'll see there is plenty of meat to my points and valid reasoning for WHY I think using cheap components for a business machine is bad.

Where does this $269 price come from? Newegg often has specials for P35 based Intel boards (some even mATX) with C2D chips for less then $269.

Stop trying to troll my "Biostar is crap" statement and actually help the OP answer his question which you've failed to do so far.

 

[pugh]

I know WHAT the OP was inquiring about. YOU made a FACT LESS statement that was senseless because of the fact you were speaking off of your cuff.

I challenged your statement and asked you have RAN and tested anything of lately with so called "crap" products.. You have not which is what I figured.

So because you were called out on your INCORRECT statement I'm a troll? Grow up son.

Don't blurt out things you know nothing about. I stated 269 because you said they are cheap. If almost $270 is cheap to you then we have nothing else to talk about. The point I made to you was not about GAMING(which you did) or BUSINESS .

The POINT is to not make BLANKET statements when you clearly have no idea what you are talking about........

Ok? Do you get it now or have you gotten so upset at being challenged you never once READ what I said to you from the top?

Troll? come on now be real...

 

[Crusty]

Originally posted by: pugh
Classic. Troll . You can't back up invalid statements and then come up with troll? Take this advice, If you don't know what you are talking about don't say anything at all.

When you stop making comment that make no sense. Then maybe others would not have to comment on it. Troll?

You have to be kidding.

You still haven't even addressed the OP or his situation in any of your posts. I'm done arguing with somebody obviously looking to pick a fight instead of help the OP with his problem.

Have a good day

 

[pugh]

Exactly.

 

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: Crusty
The biggest problem I see is the lack of quality parts. Building on a budget does not mean you can use crappy parts, it just means you have to be more mindful about what you put in there.

Biostar boards are crap. As another poster mentioned for rock solid stability with little frills Intel CPU's + Intel boards are extremely solid and stable for desktop machines. I've never even heard of that brand of RAM, there are plenty of well known inexpensive brands and many other high end brands that produce inexpensive lines.

Biostar is a 2nd tier manufacture but they make quality boards, they are cheaper because they tend to have a lower feature count. This particular board was full of United Chemic-con caps, all the other Biostar boards I've used featured caps of similar quality.

Wintec has been providing RAM to large OEMs for longer than I've been building PCs, they make quality memory.

There isn't a single low quality piece of hardware in this box.