Help, is SFF for me?

[cindyhot]

Hey guys, I hope you can help me out here!

I just got promoted, yes! But that means that beginning in February I'll be working at home half the week. I have a desktop system here but its getting antiquated, it's bulky and not much to look at, I'm pretty sure I don't want to upgrade it. Actually I hate it! I've been going through a lot of changes professionally and personally, so it feels like its time to dump this thing and get a whole new system in my life....

I'm not a hardware wizard, I stick with desktop software ... I like Ubuntu ... I'm pretty loyal to my openoffice setup and dont plan on going back.

I thought one of these new small systems might be right. They look cute, but will they last? Are they quiet? Will I get sound and graphics running on Ubuntu? Can I plug in all my old drives, and keep my mouse? Which ones will work?

Sorry for all the questions at once but I don't know where to start! I need a nice system that will be good for me to do editing at home, including some photoediting. I don't play games, but good audio is required. What should I be looking at?



~Cindy

 

[wwswimming]

for a case, the Aspire X-Q Pack comes in 6 different colors, red blue green yellow silver & black.

it's micro-ATX size. a little bigger than the Shuttle small form factor systems.

i have a red X Q Pack with a Dual Opteron in it. there are also some solid reliable Core2Duo
micro ATX motherboards, the Asus P5B-VM being one example.

i don't know about uBuntu ... a Linux or UNIX variation ?

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: wwswimming
for a case, the Aspire X-Q Pack comes in 6 different colors, red blue green yellow silver & black.

it's micro-ATX size. a little bigger than the Shuttle small form factor systems.

i have a red X Q Pack with a Dual Opteron in it. there are also some solid reliable Core2Duo
micro ATX motherboards, the Asus P5B-VM being one example.

i don't know about uBuntu ... a Linux or UNIX variation ?

Ubuntu is a Linux variant. I personally prefer Xubuntu - it's much lighter, much faster, and much more configurable. It lacks some of the features of KDE, but I personally like it much better.

I would reccomend the Q-pack. True SFF systems are a mess, and make sense only for the hard-core LANparty fan who needs the portability - they often have all manner of problems with cooling and power, or cost a mint.

I reccomend a Core2Duo E6300. It's a very high-performance and economical option, and overclockingthem is almost laughably easy - and, if it's not quite fast enough, a 30% overclock with the $25 Freezer 7 Pro heatsink is considered to be pitifully low.

On the other hand, you may be able to snag a very nice price on a last-generation Shuttle. A socket 754- or 939-based SFF can be had very reasonably, and a later model Sempron (laughably cheap - they can be had for $20-$30!) will be plenty for everything except gaming and hardcore audio/video editing.

As for graphics, try and snag a 7900-derivative on sale; even a 7900gs will be more than adequate for a few rounds of Alien Assault. Nvidia cards almost always have superior Linux support, and they're excellent performers.

For the hard drive, I reccomend trying to get a used Western Digital Raptor. Linux can be tweaked for better performance at the cost of RAM usage (OpenOffice runs much better if you allocate it 128mb of RAM instead of 28mb), but it benifits well from a high-speed drive. You can likely snag one of these on the F/S/T forum for under $50, and a used Western Digital drive is often more reliable than a new drive from some of the cheaper manufacturers. (Seagate and WD have a rep for a reason, you know - they've been in the buisness since the late 70's.)

 

[amish]

i love my shuttle and will probably go the SFF way again when i decide to build again. it does have its problems however.

IIRC mine is a SNG85 V3. it has an pretty small footprint, small enough to sit on my desk instead of on the floor like my old build. when i got it, it included a case, mb, and cooling solution already put together. the documentation was pretty good. nice pictures in the manual and only a little engrish.

when i opened it all up to start putting everything together i was surprised at the size of everything and how good the prerun cables were. once i started, putting everything together was a snap. my biggest complaint was how tight some places were. it was a little difficult getting my ram in and my video card is a little snug. but it is to be expected since the whole thing is so small.

my biggest issue is upgradability. my current PSU is 250w and there are no PSU upgrades for my model. it just isn't enough for the current AGP cards that are coming out. i've upgraded mine to run a x-fi card, an extra internal HD, and an external PVR with a seperate remote that takes up an additional USB port as well. i don't have any more room for additional bells and whistles. i'm lucky in that i don't want anything else.

mine is a little loud due to the 6600GT that is in it. unfortunately that card is notoriously loud. however my modded xbox is louder. heat is a small issue also. mine runs a little hot due to it having a graphics card, sound card, dvd burner, and two hard drives. there just isn't a lot of circulation. the extra heat doesn't cause any problems but it is something that i've noticed since i added the extra harddrive.

once i decide to upgrade in a few years i'm 90% sure that i will build another shuttle. it was easy to build, easy on the eyes, and easy to haul around. i'd say if you want something different and don't mind paying a premium buy an SFF.

 

[F1N3ST]

I have a Core 2 E6300, im selling my large ATX Mobo, buying a m-ATX Mobo, and this case-
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications...m-details.asp?EdpNo=1800612&CatId=1508
I love the look of it, it is available without the side windows and with a PSU, but I like the windows and the no-PSU.

 

[dok0619]

I bought the non-windowed case with 400watt PS from Global on sale a couple of weeks ago for 59.99 and there is also a 30.00 MIR... I am in the process of building a new system with it now, but am still at an impasse trying to decide which Intel mATX board to go with that will actually OC....

 

[F1N3ST]

Lol, me too someone suggested the Gigabyte S2.

 

[cindyhot]

Originally posted by: wwswimming
for a case, the Aspire X-Q Pack comes in 6 different colors, red blue green yellow silver & black.

Oh I just love it! The handle makes me say, "Why didn't they think of this sooner?"

http://aspireusa.net/product.php?pid=176

Sounds like I can use a regular motherboard on it. It doesn't seem too expensive, either, like 88 bucks...

http://www.viperlair.com/reviews/cases/other/cases/aspire/xqpack/

I have just one Big Question:

Is it quiet???

i don't know about uBuntu ... a Linux or UNIX variation ?

You got it! No more crashes!

 

[cindyhot]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead
True SFF systems are a mess, and make sense only for the hard-core LANparty fan who needs the portability - they often have all manner of problems with cooling and power, or cost a mint.

Cheesehead thanks for saying this. I *wanted* it to work out, but I ran into blockades everywhere I clicked.... I don't know how much these SFF systems will work on Ubuntu, either.

There was one that seemed to do the trick, the Cappuccino, but its expensive ...

http://www.cappuccinopc.com/cappuccino-gx1.asp

And is it just me or are the specs a little out of date??? 933 MHz? The old system I'm decommissioning has a faster CPU!!!

On the other hand, you may be able to snag a very nice price on a last-generation Shuttle. A socket 754- or 939-based SFF can be had very reasonably, and a later model Sempron (laughably cheap - they can be had for $20-$30!) will be plenty for everything except gaming and hardcore audio/video editing.

Oh wow, $20 for a Shuttle? What's OLPC got to say about THAT!

I saw these on newegg.com and there were about 500 different models, and I don't want to sound stupid or anything but I couldn't tell the difference between any of them! I mean each one of them *looked* a little different and there was a difference in what they listed, but they seemed pretty much the same.

My big worry about Shuttles: how Linux compatible are they? Onboard audio/video is always a worry, at least thats what one of my officemates say. I'd buy one in a second if I knew it would behave well with Linux....

As for graphics, try and snag a 7900-derivative on sale; even a 7900gs will be more than adequate for a few rounds of Alien Assault. Nvidia cards almost always have superior Linux support, and they're excellent performers.

Curious, how does my old Matrox stack up to these new nvidia cards? I have a g400 millennium, I think...

For the hard drive, I reccomend trying to get a used Western Digital Raptor. Linux can be tweaked for better performance at the cost of RAM usage (OpenOffice runs much better if you allocate it 128mb of RAM instead of 28mb), but it benifits well from a high-speed drive. You can likely snag one of these on the F/S/T forum for under $50, and a used Western Digital drive is often more reliable than a new drive from some of the cheaper manufacturers. (Seagate and WD have a rep for a reason, you know - they've been in the buisness since the late 70's.)

Cheap is my specialty! I dont want to blow the bank on this thing, but it would be nice to have a lot of hard drive space for all my media files and whatnot.... so its okay to buy a used hard drive? I always thought there was something taboo about that, like it's going to break in a couple of months or something...

Heyyyy, if I end up with that X Q-Pack, I can recycle some of my old cards, right? :Q

I have an old SCSI card... would you guys recommend I stick with that for the hard drives? Everybody's talkin SATA now, so I'm not sure....

 

[cindyhot]

Originally posted by: F1N3ST
I have a Core 2 E6300, im selling my large ATX Mobo, buying a m-ATX Mobo, and this case-
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications...m-details.asp?EdpNo=1800612&CatId=1508
I love the look of it, it is available without the side windows and with a PSU, but I like the windows and the no-PSU.

I like this one too.... my big concern I guess is that its SEEN and not HEARD, you know? I hope it doesn't rattle and hum so loud like my old battleship here.... if I'm playing some quiet music I don't want the fans to drown it all out!

 

[cindyhot]

Originally posted by: dok0619
I bought the non-windowed case with 400watt PS from Global on sale a couple of weeks ago for 59.99 and there is also a 30.00 MIR... I am in the process of building a new system with it now, but am still at an impasse trying to decide which Intel mATX board to go with that will actually OC....

Hey, you have a link for that 29 dollar case???

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: F1N3ST
this case-
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications...m-details.asp?EdpNo=1800612&CatId=1508

Hey, I just built a system using that case last week. So far it survived two LAN parties (in a single weekend). Here's a couple of pics without the side/top covers on and before I added in the two 4" blue cold cathodes.

Athlon FX-55
eVGA mATX SLI board
2GB Corsair XMS RAM
DVDRW
2x250GB Maxtor SATA
2x7900GTO video cards in SLI
Antec TruePower 2.0 480W power supply
Ultra MicroFly case

parts

testing

top view

left view

right view

rear view

angle view

Originally posted by: cindyhot
Oh I just love it! The handle makes me say, "Why didn't they think of this sooner?"
http://aspireusa.net/product.php?pid=176

Sounds like I can use a regular motherboard on it. It doesn't seem too expensive, either, like 88 bucks...

Word of caution, the handle in the X-Qpack (as well as the MicroFly above) is extremely flimsy. Now, I don't know of anyone who had it break on them, but I don't know of anyone who actually dares to use it either! I personally wouldn't trust my $1400 investment on that flexible piece of plastic.

As for quiet, mine isn't due to being SLI and all. However, based on your current video card (Matrox? I used to have a G200) and uses (Open Office, Ubuntu) I'd say that integrated video will work fine. Just find a mATX motherboard (not regular ATX) that doesn't use a fan on the chipset heatsink, plus one that supports "smart fan" meaning it will slow down CPU fan when extra cooling is not needed. Pair that with a cooler running CPU (Core 2 Duo or any recent AMD) and you have the basis for a quiet system. After that, you'll have to ask yourself how quiet do you want it? If you are still running old SCSI hard drives, then those will be the noisiest part of the system. Not bad you say? Well, hard drive noise can be a lot more irritating than fan noise. If you want really quiet, then get a new hard drive, a quiet power supply (such as Seasonic S12 series) and undervolt all the fans - after removing any extraneous fans you can do without.

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: cindyhot

Originally posted by: Cheesehead
True SFF systems are a mess, and make sense only for the hard-core LANparty fan who needs the portability - they often have all manner of problems with cooling and power, or cost a mint.

Cheesehead thanks for saying this. I *wanted* it to work out, but I ran into blockades everywhere I clicked.... I don't know how much these SFF systems will work on Ubuntu, either.

Well, hold up - don't get discouraged. By "True" SFF, I mean a Shuttle - something the size of a toaster with a non-standard motherboard, itsy-bitsy power supply, and support for all the same parts you can fit in a "traditional" PC, but squashed together.

The Qpack avoids this by using a mATX board and being a bit larger, and there's other options, too.

Originally posted by: cindyhot

Cheesehead thanks for saying this. I *wanted* it to work out, but I ran into blockades everywhere I clicked.... I don't know how much these SFF systems will work on Ubuntu, either.

There was one that seemed to do the trick, the Cappuccino, but its expensive ...

http://www.cappuccinopc.com/cappuccino-gx1.asp

And is it just me or are the specs a little out of date??? 933 MHz? The old system I'm decommissioning has a faster CPU!!!

The Cappuchino is a super-duper-small system - beyond SFF. It's not very appropriate for your uses, but if you want super-small, you'd be better off with a Via C7 system - the C7's are about as fast as a Pentium M at the same speed, and adequate for basic usage.

Linux support on ITX motherboards has always been good - they were originally used for small, unobtrusive servers and "thin clients" - in other words, Linux territory.

A remarkably good value is the Jetway J7F2 mini-ITX board. It's freakishly small - that white thing on the right is a PCI connector! - and costs only $166 with CPU included. While not a speed demon - it would be out-performed by a $60 Sempron on a $40 motherboard - it's a very nice machine if you don't need much horsepower and have a small budget. It should be more than adequate for watching movies, office work, and the GIMP - but don't expect 3D gaming performance. Plus, this very model has known Ubuntu compatibility.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=242530

There is a fanless version availbile, but it's $20 more and 1.2ghz instead of 1.5ghz. However, you'll not likely be able to hear the fan anyway.

Originally posted by: cindyhot

Cheesehead thanks for saying this. I *wanted* it to work out, but I ran into blockades everywhere I clicked.... I don't know how much these SFF systems will work on Ubuntu, either.

There was one that seemed to do the trick, the Cappuccino, but its expensive ...

http://www.cappuccinopc.com/cappuccino-gx1.asp

And is it just me or are the specs a little out of date??? 933 MHz? The old system I'm decommissioning has a faster CPU!!!

On the other hand, you may be able to snag a very nice price on a last-generation Shuttle. A socket 754- or 939-based SFF can be had very reasonably, and a later model Sempron (laughably cheap - they can be had for $20-$30!) will be plenty for everything except gaming and hardcore audio/video editing.

Oh wow, $20 for a Shuttle? What's OLPC got to say about THAT!

Er..that's $20 for the CPU. You can get a used SFF for under $100, I'd guess.

Originally posted by: cindyhot

Cheesehead thanks for saying this. I *wanted* it to work out, but I ran into blockades everywhere I clicked.... I don't know how much these SFF systems will work on Ubuntu, either.

There was one that seemed to do the trick, the Cappuccino, but its expensive ...

http://www.cappuccinopc.com/cappuccino-gx1.asp

And is it just me or are the specs a little out of date??? 933 MHz? The old system I'm decommissioning has a faster CPU!!!

I saw these on newegg.com and there were about 500 different models, and I don't want to sound stupid or anything but I couldn't tell the difference between any of them! I mean each one of them *looked* a little different and there was a difference in what they listed, but they seemed pretty much the same.

My big worry about Shuttles: how Linux compatible are they? Onboard audio/video is always a worry, at least thats what one of my officemates say. I'd buy one in a second if I knew it would behave well with Linux....

Shuttles use the same chipsets as desktops, so linux compatibility should be excellent. In fact, most of them use high-end chipsets (no point in putting a bad chipset on a $200 motherboard!), so Linux compatibility is almost guaranteed - but feel free to search for the model number on Ubuntu's forums.

While unusual PC hardware like the Via ITX boards might be a concern, they were designed for Linux use in the first place, and have a strong following. (Also, Via now makes a lot of desktop chipsets, which are pretty much identical.)

Originally posted by: cindyhot


Curious, how does my old Matrox stack up to these new nvidia cards? I have a g400 millennium, I think...

Well, to put it simply, the G450 dual-head edition was being given away FREE as a promotion on TigerDirect a few months ago.

There's really no contest - however, if you're only word processing and surfing the web, you don't need much. A used $40 video card should be more than adequate.

Originally posted by: cindyhot
Cheap is my specialty! I dont want to blow the bank on this thing, but it would be nice to have a lot of hard drive space for all my media files and whatnot.... so its okay to buy a used hard drive? I always thought there was something taboo about that, like it's going to break in a couple of months or something...

Used hard drives are normally a bad idea - they've got lots of moving parts, and do in fact wear out, just like engines or clocks. However, Seagate and Western Digital started as manufacturers of server drives, which are designed to last for years while running 24/7/365. Seeing as how most Seagate and WD drives have 5-year (sadly, not likely transferrable) warranties, you should get plenty of use out of a used drive.

Check the exact model, though - while both Seagate and WD have a rep for quiet drives, a hard drive can make up much of the noise from a computer. Adding little bits of urethane foam (they sell it at hobby shops that carry remote control vehicles) to dampen vibration can help, but there's no replacement for a quiet drive - and let me tell you, the Raptors are'nt exactly silent.

Originally posted by: cindyhot
Heyyyy, if I end up with that X Q-Pack, I can recycle some of my old cards, right? :Q

Actually, almost all SFFs have PCI card slots - the Q-pack will let you use standard mATX motherboards, which have up to three; most Shuttles have two, and the mini-ITX boards almost always have at least one. However, your old AGP card will not be compatible - but honestly, why bother?

Originally posted by: cindyhot
I have an old SCSI card... would you guys recommend I stick with that for the hard drives? Everybody's talkin SATA now, so I'm not sure....

It depends. If you've got SCSI160 or SCSI320 (Ultra 3 SCSI variants), you may as well keep 'em - otherwise, go with a nice SATA drive. SCSI is in some ways superior to SATA, but transfer rate will be limited by the PCI bus (133mb/s max!), and older SCSI variants just are'nt worth it.


Hope this helps!

 

[cindyhot]

Originally posted by: Zap
Word of caution, the handle in the X-Qpack (as well as the MicroFly above) is extremely flimsy. Now, I don't know of anyone who had it break on them, but I don't know of anyone who actually dares to use it either! I personally wouldn't trust my $1400 investment on that flexible piece of plastic.

Zap, I read your post before going to the store. I saw this thing and had to laugh! I love the size, but it sure has a rinky dink handle!! I have a friend who works in the airlines and her luggage has a built in adjustable handle, I was expecting something like that ... not something that feels about as sturdy as a baby rattle!

As for quiet, mine isn't due to being SLI and all. However, based on your current video card (Matrox? I used to have a G200) and uses (Open Office, Ubuntu) I'd say that integrated video will work fine. Just find a mATX motherboard (not regular ATX) that doesn't use a fan on the chipset heatsink, plus one that supports "smart fan" meaning it will slow down CPU fan when extra cooling is not needed. Pair that with a cooler running CPU (Core 2 Duo or any recent AMD) and you have the basis for a quiet system.

Ok, I'm on the lookout!

After that, you'll have to ask yourself how quiet do you want it?

VERY quiet! Speak only when spoken to quiet! The hard drives can peep up a little when I'm saving a file, but if I'm sitting here trying to work I don't want to hear the roar of the fans! I think I have like 4 of them...

 

[Brainonska511]

Originally posted by: cindyhot

Originally posted by: F1N3ST
I have a Core 2 E6300, im selling my large ATX Mobo, buying a m-ATX Mobo, and this case-
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications...m-details.asp?EdpNo=1800612&CatId=1508
I love the look of it, it is available without the side windows and with a PSU, but I like the windows and the no-PSU.

I like this one too.... my big concern I guess is that its SEEN and not HEARD, you know? I hope it doesn't rattle and hum so loud like my old battleship here.... if I'm playing some quiet music I don't want the fans to drown it all out!

With the QPack (and maybe the Microfly), you may want to replace the 120mm fan in the back, use a quieter PSU. The stock heatsink for the PSU can also be a little loud due to the case design.

If I built my QPack again, I'd have gotten a quiet 120mm fan, maybe a fan controller to go along with it; replaced the stock processor heatsink with something either passively cooled or one with a really quiet fan. The PSU in mine was replaced, and that doesn't contribute to any of the case noise (I use an Enermax Noisetaker 420W PSU).

 

[cindyhot]

Originally posted by: CheeseheadWell, to put it simply, the G450 dual-head edition was being given away FREE as a promotion on TigerDirect a few months ago.

There's really no contest - however, if you're only word processing and surfing the web, you don't need much. A used $40 video card should be more than adequate.

And I thought I was pretty slick with this Matrox!!! Is it really worse than onboard video if I get a new motherboard? I have no problems with viewing photos, or watching movies ... but come to think of it, Linux console graphics with the "framebuffer" mode never did work. Hmmm, I wonder how much better one of these high end things might be. Well, if I don't know what I'm missing...

Originally posted by: cindyhot
I have an old SCSI card... would you guys recommend I stick with that for the hard drives? Everybody's talkin SATA now, so I'm not sure....

If you've got SCSI160 or SCSI320 (Ultra 3 SCSI variants), you may as well keep 'em - otherwise, go with a nice SATA drive.

It was never that advanced, just plain old SCSI with an old Buslogic card that used to freeze up when everything was plugged in. My SCSI drive actually broke a could years ago, and I replaced it with IDE. My SCSI CD writer is broken. (That sound you hear is me calling for Help! I know, I know I'm on a SINKING ship!) I still have a SCSI scanner. I also have a neat little SCSI pc card reader, so I can slip in just about anything we get from clients. I can read any PCMCIA card (but come to think of it I haven't had to read one in EONS), and I have a Dazzle PCMCIA adaptor that I can plug in a memory card from any camera and it reads it ... I copy the files right off the desktop.

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: cindyhot

And I thought I was pretty slick with this Matrox!!! Is it really worse than onboard video if I get a new motherboard? I have no problems with viewing photos, or watching movies ... but come to think of it, Linux console graphics with the "framebuffer" mode never did work. Hmmm, I wonder how much better one of these high end things might be. Well, if I don't know what I'm missing...

Strictly speaking, you don't need high-end. Even the weakest graphics cards are more than adequate for high-resolution displays with 32-bit color - it's when you try gaming that they choke. Compatibility is the most important feature of all, though - it does'nt matter what you've got if you are unable to use it.

One of the Jetway C7 boards should be more than adequate. The $166 1.5ghz version is pretty zippy, has decent graphics (which can be expanded with the PCI slot), serial ATA, and has one 40mm fan.

http://www.mini-itx.com/store/default.asp?c=34&currency=2d

You can also use some cases that are only a shade larger than the Espresso line - here's an example.
http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=3#p1151

Of course, they're nastily expensive - but what can you do?

I'm using a C7 equivalent at 1ghz, and it's astoundingly fast under Xubuntu - even when it's down-clocked to 600mhz. So, if you're wondering, even this relatively weak CPU should be fine.

Assuming you don't spend much on the case (remember, a 90w micro-ATX power supply is more than overkill for one of these boards!), you can build a system for well under $300.

 

[cindyhot]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead
One of the Jetway C7 boards should be more than adequate. The $166 1.5ghz version is pretty zippy, has decent graphics (which can be expanded with the PCI slot), serial ATA, and has one 40mm fan.

Cheesehead, is a C7 some kind of alternative to Intel/AMD? How does it stack up to those? I never heard of it before ... but it has graphics and sound built in, so that's two less things to worry about.

By the way, anyone know if the sound on these mATX boards is good or not? I have an Ensonic card now, and have no problems...

You can also use some cases that are only a shade larger than the Espresso line - here's an example.
http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=3#p1151

Of course, they're nastily expensive - but what can you do?

I was all in love with the NSK1300 until I found out that you can't have BOTH a DVD and a card reader, so
I think I've settled on the Microfly ....

Assuming you don't spend much on the case (remember, a 90w micro-ATX power supply is more than overkill for one of these boards!), you can build a system for well under $300.

I'm real happy about the MicroFly because Fry's has it on sale for only $29!!! And I found a $30 DVDR at Newegg, so I'm already saving a bundle .... now I need to find a motherboard and CPU on sale, and I'll have a new system put together on a GREAT budget! You think I should go with this C7??? Does it have good sound??

I feel like I'm getting close to solving my problem here .... I'm already getting out the tape measure to make sure my little spot under the table will fit this thing.... this is exciting!

 

[cindyhot]

Originally posted by: cindyhot
[Cheesehead, is a C7 some kind of alternative to Intel/AMD? How does it stack up to those? I never heard of it before ... but it has graphics and sound built in, so that's two less things to worry about.

Hey Cheesehead I think I found your board on Newegg!!

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a...3153050&ATT=13-153-050&CMP=OTC-Froogle

Another chiphead said I should go with this ASUS...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131043

It's more expensive (considering CPU is extra) but they say it has good sound.

I'm also looking at the directron site ... they have good prices ...

http://www.directron.com/gak8n51gmfrh.html

 

[WobbleWobble]

You might also want to check out the Shuttle X100. Uses some laptop parts, so it should run pretty cool.

 

[VooDooAddict]

For not being a hardware Wizard you sure have found quite a bit to get involved in and have fun with.

The Ultra Fly and X-Qpack are good on value but not a whole lot in the "looks good on the desk" department. For that I'd recommend:


http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductLi...4808292&Submit=ENE&Nty=1&Subcategory=7
or
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductLi...tegory=7&description=&Ntk=&srchInDesc=
or
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductLi...tegory=7&description=&Ntk=&srchInDesc=

All use microATX motherboards.