Help! Car not starting.

[WhipperSnapper]

EDIT: I think it's the Neutral Safety Sensor. I put the car in neutral and it started right up, no problems! Then I turned it off. Then I tried to start it in park--no dice. Then I put it back in neutral and it started.

Car: 2002 Saturn SL2 with about 64,000 miles.

Climate: Upper Midwest state (It's been freezing cold for about 1.5 months now.)

My car no longer wants to start, even when the block heater is plugged in. Would anyone like to help me diagnose the problem?

It happened twice in the past week, but started after 4 or 7 key turn attempts, so I can't say that I haven't been put on notice that this would b ea problem.

When I turn the key, I can hear the fuel pump whine but it does not attempt to crank. The car had started fine previously without needing an excessive amount of cranking (relative to whether it's plugged in and whether it's -10 out at 2 am). I pulled and checked several fuses, including the fuses for the ignition, and they seem to be fine.

The lights and other interior electrical stuff work. The car is mostly driven 1.5 miles (each way) to and from work. However, I tend to think that the problem is not the battery. The battery is 3 years old (Costco brand, rebadged Interstate battery, I think). It did this same thing a couple years ago and the car started and the problem disappeared after a tow and after the outside temperatures warmed up some--no problems since then. (Oh, and I replaced the battery at that time, which didn't solve the problem.)

Any guesses?

Could there be some sort of an electrical problem where the ignition system isn't telling the starter to crank it? Could it be a bad connection to the starter? Could it be a problem with some sort of a sensor that's required to operate? Could it be a weird problem where the crankshaft is in such a position that it just needs to be turned a bit in order to allow the starter to start cranking it? (Should I push the car a foot and try to start it?)

 

[phucheneh]

...could it be a discharged battery or a bad starter, as is the case a minimum of 95% of the time?

You're thinking a little too hard about this; not sure why you'd ignore the somewhat obvious stuff.

First things I'd do:

Check battery voltage. 'State of charge' numbers are not terribly concrete, especially since you don't know the condition of the battery. As in, a bad battery could read 12.4-12.6v or so (fully charged or fairly close) and still not have the energy to crank the engine. But this is a good first step, as it often reveals a <12v reading, leading to relative certainty that the battery is causing the current no-start issue. If the battery is not 'bad,' but merely discharged, however, you will need to look further (you can determine this by taking the batt to a parts store and letting them do a 'diagnostic charge'.)

If battery voltage appears to be good, move to the starter relay and see if it clicks on when the key is turned.

If this is also good, it's likely a bad starter. But as a final test, you should check battery voltage while trying to crank. If there is a large drop, but no starter action, you're probably dealing with a bad battery or a bad cable (or terminal connection). Bad starters tend to not draw much power, as it's typically the solenoid that fails. Solenoid is energized by the relay, and in turn energizes the starter motor; the motor is the large draw that causes a dip in battery voltage while cranking.

 

[CA19100]

Stickshift? Could the switch on the clutch pedal be preventing the starter from engaging?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

It's an automatic. One some other forums for similar threads it's been suggested that it could the Neutral Safety Switch or Crankshaft Position Sensor. It could also be the Ignition Cylinder, the Solenoid, or the Starter itself.

 

[phucheneh]

Stickshift? Could the switch on the clutch pedal be preventing the starter from engaging?

This is possible (even with an auto- switch is on the shifter), but like some of the general thoughts in the OP, you're getting a bit ahead of yourself. Hopefully that doesn't sound insulting; I'm just saying that things are easiest when you follow a diagnostic process that is 'top down,' so to speak.

You could do ten different 'pinpoint' tests and may not find the problem. But one or two more simple (or just 'easier') tests, and you can greatly narrow down the number of possibilities.

Before looking at a neutral safety switch, it's much more logical to check what I mentioned: starter relay and battery charge. If the batt is charged but the relay does not power on, then start looking at the things that would prevent it from doing so (the relay itself, ignition switch, neutral safety switch are what come to mind...also fuses...it sucks when you forget to check a fuse, heh).

 

[LTC8K6]

Next time it does this, give the starter a couple good whacks and then see if it starts.

 

[power_hour]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_would_indicate_that_the_starter_solenoid_is_bad

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I do want to try whacking the starter, but it's way under the car and I don't have a good way to get to it.

 

[phucheneh]

Or you could spend thirty seconds checking what I recommended.

Buy hey, feel free to go with 'hit shit with a hammer.'

 

[LTC8K6]

It's a fairly common way to get a recalcitrant solenoid or starter to start working again. Also works on other motors and solenoids. :biggrin:

It needs to be a calibrated hit, though.

 

[phucheneh]

It's a fairly common way to get a recalcitrant solenoid or starter to start working again. Also works on other motors and solenoids. :biggrin:

It needs to be a calibrated hit, though.

There is a greater than 50% chance that the tiny bit of work I told him to do will rule out a bad starter. Hitting something with a hammer is not a good way to find out that it's NOT the problem.

Hitting it with a hammer is what you do AFTER you've spent a brief moment checking other things, are pretty certain it's the starter, and just need to get the car moved pre-repair.

It is not a proper step in non-retarded diagnosis.

 

[LTC8K6]

I don't know that I'd use a regular hammer, though. Maybe a dead blow hammer or a 2X4. If you use a regular hammer, you'd need to be careful. You just want a good solid tap, you don't want to "hammer".

A nice rap works very well on older Ford IAC solenoids when they start to stick. A medium sized screwdriver handle is perfect.

Never underestimate the power of a good diagnostic thump to find out what's wrong, or to get things working again. :biggrin:

 

[phucheneh]

Oh, I know it works. And I've seen people at dealers do it as a 'first resort.'

And yeah, you don't have to knock the hell out of it. I usually just give it a decent jab with a long prybar.

I just don't see it as a good first step, and try and stop of the propagation of that 'strategy' when there are very simple things that can and should be checked first.

 

[CraigRT]

I had pretty much the exact same car with the exact same symptoms and all it was, was a bad connection to the starter. I cleaned off all the green corrosion and the problem never came back. I wish I still had that car...

 

[MixMasterTang]

Next time it does this, give the starter a couple good whacks and then see if it starts.

In the late 90s I lived in an apartment complex where this guy had a 70s Impala and to get it started it would have to jack it up and bang on the starter (in the winter time). He would get it started in the morning and anytime I would see the car in the parking lot throughout the day it was just setting there idling so he wouldn't have to repeat the starting process more than once a day.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I think it's the Neutral Safety Sensor. I put the car in neutral and it started right up, no problems! Then I turned it off. Then I tried to start it in park--no dice. Then I put it back in neutral and it started.

 

[LTC8K6]

I think it's the Neutral Safety Sensor. I put the car in neutral and it started right up, no problems! Then I turned it off. Then I tried to start it in park--no dice. Then I put it back in neutral and it started.

Well, that was easy.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Not so easy yet...now I have to get this fixed.

 

[phucheneh]

Easy fix. Pull the console; there should be a solenoid attached to the side of the shifter assembly. Probably a pretty cheap part.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Easy fix. Pull the console; there should be a solenoid attached to the side of the shifter assembly. Probably a pretty cheap part.

Uh...I'm only semi-mechanical. What do you mean by "pull the console"? Pull the shifter stick assembly area? (Car is an automatic, btw.)

 

[phucheneh]

As in, remove that big chunk of plastic that surrounds the shifter and has an armrest on it.

It's probably about six fasteners, tops. I'm sure if you look around, there's probably a write-up for it somewhere.

 

[sontakke]

So, who was the first person to suggest trying to start the car in neutral? Whoever that person is, he was the most useful. It does not matter if that guy had ten ASE certificates or if he had never ever even touched a wrench in his life.

You guys get my drift??? How come internet warriors start throwing most complicated solutions before ruling out the simplest of the stuff?

 

[sontakke]

duplicate - deleted

 

[LTC8K6]

So, who was the first person to suggest trying to start the car in neutral? Whoever that person is, he was the most useful. It does not matter if that guy had ten ASE certificates or if he had never ever even touched a wrench in his life.

You guys get my drift??? How come internet warriors start throwing most complicated solutions before ruling out the simplest of the stuff?

The winner is then the OP himself, in post #4.

 

[phucheneh]

So, who was the first person to suggest trying to start the car in neutral? Whoever that person is, he was the most useful. It does not matter if that guy had ten ASE certificates or if he had never ever even touched a wrench in his life.

You guys get my drift??? How come internet warriors start throwing most complicated solutions before ruling out the simplest of the stuff?

Uh, 'check the battery' and 'see if the relay clicks' are not complicated. And they're not solutions. They're very easy ways to look for the PROBLEM, which is a convenient thing to know before you try and fix something.

Here's an idea: for every no-start you see for the rest of your life, automatically replace the neutral/park switch before you do anything else.

...let me know how that turns out for you.