HELP!!! best MoBo for an OCed P4 1.6A? advice please!

Sunny129

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2000
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i recently decided to get a P4 1.6A CPU, and now i need to decided on a mobo to go with it. i realize that there are quite a few boards to choose from. i've taken into account the price or RAM, and it isn't an issue at this time. so i'm just looking for the chipset with the best bandwidth, regardless of whether it uses RDRAM, DDR SDRAM, or something else. i'm not sure how many chipsets exist for the P4 presently...the last time i checked, there were only two, and that was ages ago, so i'm assuming things have changed quite a bit since then. once i decide on the chipset, i would like to find a very reliable, solid, overclockable mobo.

i currently have a PIII 700E @1GHz on an ASUS CUSL2 mobo. i chose the CUSL2 b/c it seemed to be most people's choice as the most reliable, stable, and overclockable mobo for the PIII, and also b/c it used the chipset of choice, the i815E. some people argued that the ABIT SA6R was the best, and others recommended a MicroStar mobo. undoubtedly, these were the top three mobos for the platform i wanted. i am looking for the same thing here...opinions and recommendations on the best chipset and mobo for my P4 1.6A CPU. thanks...eric
 

FatClemenza

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Apr 22, 2002
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I will make the assumption that we're only talking about boards and chipsets that are currently available to end users. If memory type isn't an issue, based on my experience, I'd recommend an ABit TH7-II RAID motherboard with 512 mb of RDRAM. If your going for a maximum overclock with your P4 1.6A using an RDRAM board, the ABit is the only one out there, even if it is based on the 850 chipset rather than the newer 850E, that will go to 200 mhz FSB in 1 mhz increments. I believe that the newer Gigabyte, Asus and Iwill 850E RDRAM boards top out at 156 mhz FSB, which could prove limiting if you have a cpu that overclocks particularly well.
 

Sunny129

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Nov 14, 2000
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a few questions then...

1) so the ABit TH7-II RAID doesn't have the new i850E chipset?
2) if ASUS and other companies are going to make boards w/ the i850E revision, doesn't ABit plan on doing the same?
3) what does the i850E chipset do that the i850 doesn't (are the changes significant or drastic)?
4) does the i850 or i850E provide more bandwidth than all or most other chipset solutions for the P4? and for that matter, will the new i850E provide more bandwidth than the older i850, or are the changes just going to be the typical minor adjustments and additions to the north and south bridge etc?
5) when do boards w/ the i850E chipset hit the market?

if the changes aren't significant, i would rather have the older i850 chipset w/ no fsb limitations than the new i850E chipset with a limited fsb simply due to the fact that no mobo manufacturer makes the new chipset w/ an option to go above 156MHz fsb...provided i even go with one of the i850 chipsets. but the info so far sounds good...i would just like to get a few more opinions to reassure me that it is the best one i can go with, or opinions recommending something else.

remember, i am looking for the P4 chipset with the most bandwidth...then i'll worry about OCing. it sounds nice to have a mobo w/ an option to raise the fsb to 200MHz, but i plan on using stock hsf, so i probably won't push it much farther than 150MHz fsb, assuming i can get it to OC that far with standard hsf.
 

FatClemenza

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Apr 22, 2002
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To answer your questions:

1) The TH7II-R is based on the 850 chipset with the MCH2 hub.
2) I haven't seen anything on ABit's web site regarding an 850E board.
3) The is no real difference in the chipsets. The 850E is certified for the 133 fsb of the Northwood B cpus. Some manufacturers (Gigabyte) are pairing the 850E with the MCH4 hub to provide native USB 2.0 support.
4) The chipsets provide the same memory bandwidth on a clock for clock basis, however most of the 850E boards support the newer pc1066 RDRAM standard. The 850 boards support the older pc800 standard. The 850E boards use upgraded memory clock generators that will support a higher memory speed than older models, although I've had good luck with the TH7II-R in this respect. Sice a high fsb overclock will require that you use a memory multiplier of 3 rather than the 4 used at the standard 100 mhz fsb, these differences will not make any real difference. In addition, the lower memory multiplier reduces latency as a partial offset to the loss in raw bandwidth, .
5) Asus, Gigabyte, Iwill and Intel already have 850E boards available.

You can find a lot of good info on the TH7II-R on the Overclockers Abit forum.
 

Mikki

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Jun 13, 2002
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Sunny, read thru the posts in the overclocking forum also, for some additional info on what boards people are using and what's best. :)
 

Sunny129

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cool, thanks guys. i'll probably be back with some questions after researching it a bit more...
 

Sunny129

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Nov 14, 2000
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Mikki,

i'm a little confused now...i was looking at your rig and noticed that you have the P4T533E. now doesn't that board operate @ 533MHz fsb by default, or does it operate @ 400MHz fsb by default and the user can raise it to 533MHz if they wish to? i'm assuming the latter, or you wouldn't have been able to OC to 2.4GHz. also, i'm not seeing the P4T533E on other websites...all i can find is the P4T533 and the P4T533C. according to ASUS' website, the only real difference is the type of RAM that can be used, since they both use the i850E chipset. the P4T533 can use RIMM3200/4200 memory, but only has two RIMM slots, whereas the P4T533C can only use PC800/1066 memory, but it has 4 RIMM slots. if i'm correct, the PC800/1066 is 16-bit memory, while the RIMM3200/4200 is 32-bit memory, but i'm not sure what all this really means. the interesting thing is that ASUS says that both boards take a maximum of 2GB of RAM and have the same bandwidth of 4.2GB/s. why should i choose one type of RAM over the other besides the price? what does all this mean? (and on top of that, where am i going to get the most bandwidth?)
 

FatClemenza

Member
Apr 22, 2002
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No, I'm currently using a Asus P4T-E 850 chipset board, which operates at 400 fsb (100x4) default. You can run it at up to 624 fsb (156x4) by using jumper mode and correctly configuring the jumper block on the board. I still have my TH7-IIR and plan on putting it back in my RDRAM system after I finish fooling around with the Asus board. The Abit is more flexible in fsb and vcore settings for overclocking, but I have to say that the Asus is extremely stable using the jumper mode.
 

Sunny129

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Nov 14, 2000
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FatClemenza,

even though the ABit will be able to clock to a higher fsb than the ASUS, do you feel like that ABit is as stable?
 

FatClemenza

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Apr 22, 2002
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It is really a close call between the two. The Asus seems to have less variations in the vcore and 12v rail values in MBM5 when the CPU/Memory subsystems are being stressed in Prime 95, but the ABit has a AGP/Pci lock feature in the bios that locks the AGP at 66mhz and the Pci bus at 33mhz regardless of the fsb, which can help eliminate problems with sound or network cards at high fsb. I haven't had any random reboots or BSOD's while using either. My cpu is the limiting factor in that it tops out at 2608mhz (163 fsb) at my self imposed maximum vcore of 1.75v.
 

reformat

Junior Member
Feb 10, 2002
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Personally I'd go with a SIS645DX motherboard. ASUS, SOYO and MSI each have a version out, I've got a system I built for my wife, using an AOPEN AX45V and PC2100 DDR and it memory bandwith benchmarks almost Identical to an Intel 850 with PC800 RDRAM. Features per dollar they are a much better deal, and they are perfectly stable. If ou can wait the SIS648 is on its way out right now, Shuttle has a board, but I couldn't find anyone selling it yet.
 

canadianpsycho

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May 23, 2001
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I've read so much about how Abit mobos seem to be the luck of the draw... And the fact that Abit makes you pay to RMA the mobo pretty much takes my money in the opposite direction of Abit boards. Granted I've never owned one, but there's no real reason for me to want an Abit any more than an Asus or EPoX (both of which have always been great to me, and cosistently benchmark near the top of their class no matter the platform/chipset).
 

Sunny129

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Nov 14, 2000
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Mikki,

i've been looking through the overclockers forum to see what mobos people are using w/ their P4's. It seems like alot of people are going with the ASUS P4B533 series. as i'm sure you already know, each uses a variation of the Intel i845 chipset. the P4B533E is very enticingb/c of all its features, but just like all the other P4B533's, it uses SDRAM or DDR SDRAM, which is only half the bandwidth provided by the RDRAM used with the i850 chipset. i'm assuming most of these people choose the i845 series over the i850 series b/c i845 mobos are cheaper than i850 mobos and DDR SDRAM is cheaper than RDRAM? i really don't see any other reason to go with the i845 other than if you're building a budget system...anyways, i'm still browsing through the OCers forum looking for more P4 mobo solutions...
 

Sunny129

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Nov 14, 2000
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reformat,

i noticed you used PC2100 in the system you made for your wife...ASUS' website says the P4S533 can handle up to PC2700. is the board really limited to that, or do you think i could use something higher like PC3200? the reason i ask is b/c they say the same thing about CPUs...they say a mobo can handle to a certain CPU speed, but CPUs of a higher rated speed will work fine in the mobo. and also, what's new with the SIS648? how will it differ from the SIS645DX?

canadianpsycho,

i feel the same way. when i was looking for a mobo for my PIII, i had narrowed it down to ASUS, ABit, and MSI. both ASUS and MSI were rock solid in stability, but the MSI didn't have as many features and OCing ability of the ASUS. the ABit was an OCing monster, but it wasn't as stable as the ASUS, according to several users i polled here in the forums. besides, the OCing % margin for a PIII CPU was small in scale to either of the ASUS' or ABit's fsb speeds, so i went with the ASUS CUSL2. the CPU, not the fsb frequency options, turned out to be the limiting factor in OCing as i predicted. but i did the the PIII 700E up to 1086MHz with a 155MHz fsb. i did all this with only a Golden Orb cooler. i suppose if i had a more expensive and heat efficient fan i might have been able to push it to 166MHz fsb (about 1.16GHz CPU), but then the voltage would probably become the limiting factor. it was already starting to become one since i fear toasting my CPU w/ too much voltage...
 

reformat

Junior Member
Feb 10, 2002
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I used the pc2100, because I had a 256mb stick on-hand already. My wife does not game, and is only looking for stability. The new SIS 648 chipset raises the capability to DDR400, adds Firewire capability and the Shuttle board has serial ATA connectors already for when the hard drives become available. There are plent of reviews on the 645DX boards, I would think it's ability to run PC3200 would depend on wether the board allowed O/Cing to 200Mhz, and whether the board remained stable, I've read the SOYO board is the best, its also the most expensive, the reviews put the ASUS and MSI boards at the top too. pre/review of SIS648
 

Sunny129

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2000
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what exactly is DDR400? is that a higher clocked memory, or is it an industry standard or sorts? i've seen DDR220 and some other similar notations, but i'm not exactly sure what they mean.
 

reformat

Junior Member
Feb 10, 2002
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When you see DDR referenced as 200, 266, 333,400 that is the frequency in Mhz that it is clocked. When it is referenced as pc1600,pc2100, pc2400, 2700 etc that is the theoretical maximum bandwidth in Mb/s,. DDR266=pc2100, DDR333=pc2700, DDR-400=pc3200. RDRAM is rated at the clock speed it runs at PC800= 400Mhz fsb x 2, pc1066=533Mhz x 2. RDRAM's is a 2 bit bus so you can double the speed to get the approxiamte theoretical bandwidth. PC1066 = 3.2 Gb/s even though it doesnt seem to add up.
 

Sunny129

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2000
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reformat,

i had a look at the review of the SiS648 chipset at Tom's Hardware Giude, and it is very impressive. at first i was leaning toward the i850E chipset, but the decision has proven more difficult than i thought. anyways, it will be probably another week or two b4 i have a mobo, RAM, video card, and other things picked out b/c of all the research i have to do on it. like you said, Shuttle is expected to have the first mobo w/ the SiS648 chipset. i noted that in the review @ Tom's. but it doesn't say when it hits the market. how long will it be b4 i can purchase such a board? the only thing i'm not too sure about is the reliability and stability of Shuttle mobos. ASUS is the most raved about when it comes to rock solid stability, but i don't know when, or even if ASUS and other mobo manufacturers will implement the new SIS648 chipset anytime soon.

at first i was looking for the mobo/RAM solution with the absolute most bandwidth no matter the price of the board or the RAM, and that led me toward the i850E chipset. but if another chipset is only marginally behind the i850E in bandwidth and performance (i.e. the SiS648), i might as well spend less money for almost the same performance. and besides, DDR seems to have so much more of a promising future than RDRAM. i have to think about it more, but i might have it narrowed down to the i850E abd the Sis648 as far as chipsets go.


PS - thanks for clearing the memory thing up for me...it makes so much more sense now :confused:. yeah that last calculation doesnquite add up. shouldn't PC1066 have max bandwidth of 2.1GB/s, not 3.2GB/s?
 

reformat

Junior Member
Feb 10, 2002
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It does come out to 2.1, but RDRAM has to be bought in pairs, and you can run it in dual channel mode and that raises the bandwidth, there are charts on the web that show it all, probably one right here on anandtech. When I built that system, the bandwidth just blew me away, it scorched my KT266a, which I had OC'ed the memory to 290 Mhz (145 Mhz fsb). My wife's system turned out much faster than I expected, considering I installed a 1.7 Ghz Celeron (Pentium 4 based), I was just trying to maximize stability. Amazing for $350 (not including monitor).
 

Sunny129

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2000
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reformat,

how much memory do you have in that system? i think the Sis645DX allows up to 3GB, but i don't know anyone who would ever need to max that feature out.

i'm going to start a new thread here in the mobo forum to help me make a decision between the i850E and the SiS648 (when it comes out)...

in the mean time, thanks for all the advice
eric.
 

Sunny129

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2000
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hey reformat,

i don't know if you're still keeping track of this thread, but i was thinking about that memory interpretation you did for me at the bottom of this thread. the explanation of the notation makes sense to me, but then you equate one notation to the other, and one of the equations says that PC3200 = DDR400. DDR400 isn't even available to the public yet b/c JEDEC hasn't made it an official standard yet (the only people who can get it are hardware reviewers and such). but in AnandTech's latest mobo/memory price guide, PC3200 is for sale. are you sure PC3200 corresponds to DDR400?
 

TalonFyre

Member
Jul 10, 2002
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Sunny,

Yes, PC3200 is DDR400. Although it currently is not a standard, it is now more of a notation of how fast the memory is rated to run. PC2100 (DDR266) and PC2700(DDR333) memory chips are rated to run at 266 Mhz and 333 Mhz, respectively. However, with some modification of the voltage feeding these chips, they can be "pushed" to run higher. My PC2700 (DDR333) runs at 375 Mhz with an increase of .01 volts. It is not rated to run that speed but due to the high quality / overclockability of my RAM, it can handle it. PC3200 RAM is just a higher quality fabrication of memory which has been tested at DDR400 (400 Mhz).

You seem to have alot of questions in researching the right system to buy. Feel free to ask me anything. I have been working with PC systems since I was 8 years old (Intel 286 days) and have A+ Certification (though that means little to some of these geniuses on the forums =P ) and am currently majoring in Computer Science. I'm pretty up to date with the latest system offerings since I just researched for 3 months before buying my new system 2 days ago. Ask away!
 

Sunny129

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2000
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thanks TalonFyre...i actually posted the same memory question in a number of other forums, and the general concensus is that memory labeled PC3200 is really just PC2700 that's been tested and run successfully @ 400MHz, even though it hasn't officially been approved as DDR400 since DDR400 is not an official industry standard yet.

anyways, i definitely would like your opinion on the few choices i've made so far. i plan on getting a P4 1.6A CPU and overclocking it as far as the stock hsf will allow it to go. if i get it to 2.4GHz i'll be more than happy, and i hear numerous success stories of OCers doing this with the stock hsf here in the forums. at first i was looking at the i850E chipset b/c i wanted the absolute best memory bandwidth i can get, but then i discovered the SiS648 chipset just coming out now, and for alot less $ i can have almost the same performance as the i850E chipset. the only decisions left are what mobo and memory to get. Shuttle's board will be the first Sis648 mobo on the market and it has a ton of features, including RAID and serial ATA pins and cables ready for when the new serial ATA drives hit the market ina month or two. but i know nothing about the stability and overclockability of Shuttle boards. from the start of my research i had heard nothing about other manufacturers coming out with a SiS648 solution anytime soon, but that changed over the last few days. i'd like to see a few reputable hardware reviewers such as AnandTech and Tom's Hardware review some other SiS648 boards like ASUS and MSI when they get ahold of them. and your opinion on which mobo to go with would certainly help too. right now i'm most interested in Shuttle and ASUS b/c Shuttle has so many features and ASUS is known for rock solid stability. infact i have an ASUS CUSL2 w/ a PIII 700E @ 1050MHZ right now, so i guess i'm sort of biased from the start ;). Anyways, AnandTech should be reviewing the Shuttle board very soon, and Tom's already reviewed it, so i'd like to see a review or two on the ASUS. i mentioned MSI also b/c they make great boards also when it comes to quality and stability. as far as memory goes, i think i'll just stick with the stuff labeled PC2700 to play it safe and just upgrade to PC3200 when DDR400 becomes an official industry standard. besides, i've heard of a few brands, such as Samsung, whose PC2700 OCs to 200MHz fsb (DDR400 speed). let me know what you think...if you don't respond soon, i'll PM you, assuming you lost track of the thread or something...

thanks...eric