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Heavily USED PCI Cards

T

tn00

Junior Member
Hi,

What is the physical/technical stress of a PCI card used over a decade?

To be exact, i am offered a Pro Tools HD recording rig: Two large-format PCI cards with DSP (digital audio processors).

The cards are maybe second or third hand and may are working till now on a pro studio for about a decade on daily basis.

There are some self tests that Pro Tools have bundled called Digitest but i want to know by Highly-technical point of view the drawbacks, if there are at all.

What can be damaged on a PCI card after years of daily heavy use. Is it safe to buy today?

Any ''hidden'' problems may occur?

this is the card:

http://www.bswusa.com/assets/product_images/large/digi_protoolshdaccel.jpg
 
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Aged capacitors.... stress due to vibration (esp if it was never screwed in) that could lead to cracked or broken traces or solder joints. If the chip uses flash ram or anything it could be worn out etc.
 
Thanks for the response, I was seeking for exactly this kind of answer.

So, is there something to do in order to determine if the units are ok to buy? (they are about 1500$). I am not a technician but i can look for certain things on the board if i know what am i looking for
 
The only thing i can say 99% for sure, is that the cards were used by professionals so i believe that they treated them carefully especially because when they were released (2003-2010) they were extraordinary expensive pieces of gear.
 
This is what am i going to do and thank you for your answers.

Are there maybe any signs of heavy use on the electronic parts on the board that i can physically check ? or if is there something that an experienced tech could see at the first glance
 
tn00 said:
This is what am i going to do and thank you for your answers.

Are there maybe any signs of heavy use on the electronic parts on the board that i can physically check ? or if is there something that an experienced tech could see at the first glance
Click to expand...

if that picture is the card, then the card should be pretty much the same as when it was bought. all i see are some electrolytic/tantalum surface mount caps which are pretty durable on the right.

i would check the break out box or whatever those connectors are attached to for physical wear and tear.
 
Unfortunately this is a random pic i found on the web but the card is exactly the same with the attached picture's.

If i had a hi-res photo of exactly the card of the offer, i definitely would upload it but even now, the system is in use in the machine room of the studio.

The breakout box however, seems to be ok and carefully used till now

is there any sign on the capacitor surface that i can check indicating heavy use, shortened life, overheat etc? or on other parts of the card?
 
tn00 said:
is there any sign on the capacitor surface that i can check indicating heavy use, shortened life, overheat etc? or on other parts of the card?
Click to expand...

cracking, discoloration, oozing ( i've never seen these on those monolithic surface mount caps )

to me the only thing that could be abused over the years is the breakout box

do they guarantee it works?
 
I'm sure it will be fine. You might want to take an eraser and use it to clean the edge connector before inserting the card.
 
Actually they are using the (2) cards right now and they will detach them of their computer the day i will buy them.

The modular nature of the system allows me to buy a new interface (breakout box) to attach on the cards at any time, although the interface they are offering now is in mint condition.

So, if everything looks fine at a glance is ok to buy..
 
Yeah, hard to tell. Some caps ooze a yellow (or other colour) foam looking stuff, which indicates they're near failure. Lots of old motherboards seem to get that.

But beyond that, it's always a good sign if it's mostly dust free. Dust accumulation can lead to hot spots on the chips and early failure. Keeping your computer's innards mostly dust free should help a ton with the longevity of cards.
 
Assuming that they are honest/trustworthy sellers, and keeping nothing from you.
Then the fact that they are currently using them, without any problems, is a good sign.
As many of the potential electronic problems, would manifest itself, causing operational problems (in many cases, but not all).

Although sometimes there are visible signs of damage (leaking capacitors (as mentioned in another post), misshaped capacitors e.g. Bulging), signs of burning etc, there are many issues which will give absolutely no physically obvious signs.
Such as the chips wearing out, flash wearing out (if applicable). (Over time electronic chips, especially if hot, "wear out", i.e. break).

I'm glad it's not me buying it, as I would desperately try and solve the problem/requirement another way.
I personally try to avoid buying second hand electronics, as in some cases, the seller does not tell the full story, and/or a modern version was as cheap, cheaper, better, and more reliable etc.

It seems a lot of money for something so old, any chance of them offering a guarantee (especially if they can be trusted to return the money on its return, which if you don't know them, is unlikely).

Anyway, best of luck, and I hope you don't need it (the luck, that is).

EDIT: Also, in my experience, if a card becomes very old, e.g. > 10 years, then continued software support can be a serious issue.
E.g. A newer version of windows comes out, which supports the latest software, but does NOT support your very old card. 10 years is a very long time already, software wise.
Will it still be supported (if necessary) in say 2 years time ?
And if not is it worth buying it in the first place ?

I have had stuff which was electrically perfect, but due to its age, lack of software update/support meant I had to stop using it e.g. Very old graphics cards, on modern operating systems.
 
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SOFTengCOMPelec said:
Assuming that they are honest/trustworthy sellers, and keeping nothing from you.
Then the fact that they are currently using them, without any problems, is a good sign.
As many of the potential electronic problems, would manifest itself, causing operational problems (in many cases, but not all).

Although sometimes there are visible signs of damage (leaking capacitors (as mentioned in another post), misshaped capacitors e.g. Bulging), signs of burning etc, there are many issues which will give absolutely no physically obvious signs.
Such as the chips wearing out, flash wearing out (if applicable). (Over time electronic chips, especially if hot, "wear out", i.e. break).

I'm glad it's not me buying it, as I would desperately try and solve the problem/requirement another way.
I personally try to avoid buying second hand electronics, as in some cases, the seller does not tell the full story, and/or a modern version was as cheap, cheaper, better, and more reliable etc.

It seems a lot of money for something so old, any chance of them offering a guarantee (especially if they can be trusted to return the money on its return, which if you don't know them, is unlikely).

Anyway, best of luck, and I hope you don't need it (the luck, that is).
Click to expand...


i take seriously your point of view. Today i contacted the seller and he ensured me that it is a fully working system they are using ever right now for their clients.

Also, he gave me a detailed history of the hardware and it is used by professional engineers only, and also, it is about 6-7 years old.

Unfortunately the today's equivalent costs a five-digit number of $ (it is ProTools HDX) and there is no other solution for such an advanced DSP Audio system.
 
You are totally right and the future support is under research for me.

The only thing that does not prevent me from thinking seriously about buying this system is the fact that is was officialy discontinued 2 years ago. So, if i had purchased it as a new system, i suppose that the company will support it at least for 5 years.
 
tn00 said:
You are totally right and the future support is under research for me.

The only thing that does not prevent me from thinking seriously about buying this system is the fact that is was officialy discontinued 2 years ago. So, if i had purchased it as a new system, i suppose that the company will support it at least for 5 years.
Click to expand...

Hardware wise
On further reflection, it might not be so risky. You may be lucky/ok, and not have any electrical failures (depends on how well designed it was, and the quality of the components).

In the hopefully (not too likely) event it breaks, it would/should only be ONE of the two cards. By which time, the second hand price of them may have dropped, so that it would not be that bad (e.g. $500) to fix it then, by buying another "single" card, to replace a broken one. (A very quick internet/ebay) scan, seems to imply there are a few, lurking about for sale).

Software wise
That would be much more critical, depending on how happy/important software updates are to you, and/or PC equipment changes.

Good luck with the research.

You may be able to get better advice (better, as in specific to this type of equipment), on a music/recording (etc) related forum.

E.g. They can warn you about specific problems/issues, known faults, and other useful information.
 
Thanks for your detailed response,

Hardware wise:

As the technician informed me, the cards are really in mint condition. Also, i did the same quick ebay/net scan and the prices are dropping day by day. ProTools HD is the most popular recording system and music industry standard and gradually is being replaced by the newer HDX platform. It is build with the best possible components aimed to last many years used from pro-recording companies.

Software wise:

Although i am quite nerdy using to update always to the newer versions of my software and upgrading my computers regularly, this is not the case for my HD setup. The cards, (that will be) installed on my brand new machine today have updated drivers (for OSX 10.8 in my case) and i can use the latest software version. In a pro audio environment that i plan to use my system, updates really are not critical. The main concern is stability, and if everything works well, stability will be achieved.

Finally, i asked for opinions on other dedicated audio forums, but all the critical info i was seeking for, came from this forum and i am really happy with it!
 
tn00 said:
Thanks for your detailed response,

Hardware wise:

As the technician informed me, the cards are really in mint condition. Also, i did the same quick ebay/net scan and the prices are dropping day by day. ProTools HD is the most popular recording system and music industry standard and gradually is being replaced by the newer HDX platform. It is build with the best possible components aimed to last many years used from pro-recording companies.

Software wise:

Although i am quite nerdy using to update always to the newer versions of my software and upgrading my computers regularly, this is not the case for my HD setup. The cards, (that will be) installed on my brand new machine today have updated drivers (for OSX 10.8 in my case) and i can use the latest software version. In a pro audio environment that i plan to use my system, updates really are not critical. The main concern is stability, and if everything works well, stability will be achieved.

Finally, i asked for opinions on other dedicated audio forums, but all the critical info i was seeking for, came from this forum and i am really happy with it!
Click to expand...

Your reply is giving me a fair bit more confidence in what you are planning to do, than I had initially.

An unfortunate consequence of life is that we seem to regularly have to make Yes/No/Other decisions, some of which are VERY critical (e.g. Health) and/or very expensive.

It's good that you are taking the time and trouble to research the ins and outs (excuse the pun), of this purchase.
It should/will minimise the risk.

I've sometimes been in the same or similar situation myself, sometimes it has worked out well, and other times have added to my experiences in life.

I hope this goes well for you, and I take no responsibility for what happens afterwards.
 
SOFTengCOMPelec said:
Your reply is giving me a fair bit more confidence in what you are planning to do, than I had initially.

An unfortunate consequence of life is that we seem to regularly have to make Yes/No/Other decisions, some of which are VERY critical (e.g. Health) and/or very expensive.

It's good that you are taking the time and trouble to research the ins and outs (excuse the pun), of this purchase.
It should/will minimise the risk.

I've sometimes been in the same or similar situation myself, sometimes it has worked out well, and other times have added to my experiences in life.

I hope this goes well for you, and I take no responsibility for what happens afterwards.
Click to expand...


I really like your perspective and matches with my own also.

Yes i definitely HAVE to make a choice and i always try to do the best possible actions in order to achieve a target even if there are signs that it might be risky. And for this reason i try to see the situation ''from away'', to see the ''bigger image'' and the positive/negative impacts of my decision. And i perform deep searches, studying on hardware and electronics and of course asking for opinions of more experienced people than me like on this forum!

Additionally, one of the main reasons i do such a deep research is the fact that i am aware that money is earned hard and for sure, i can't risk without at least having done a good research.

Also agree, that always there is a possibility an investment to be the worst money ever spent, but also.. may not.
 
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tn00 said:
I really like your perspective and matches with my own also.

Yes i definitely HAVE to make a choice and i always try to do the best possible actions in order to achieve a target even if there are signs that it might be risky. And for this reason i try to see the situation ''from away'', to see the ''bigger image'' and the positive/negative impacts of my decision. And i perform deep searches, studying on hardware and electronics and of course asking for opinions of more experienced people than me like on this forum!

Additionally, one of the main reasons i do such a deep research is the fact that i am aware that money is earned hard and for sure, i can't risk without at least having done a good research.

Also agree, that always there is a possibility an investment to be the worst money ever spent, but also.. may not.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you did your diligence. If it's a good price, go for it.

Good luck!
 
The biggest issue I can see is one of price. Hardware DSP, like Pro Tools were #1 in for a long time, is getting its ass throughoutly kicked by software DSP these days. Modern CPUs are so fast that the DSPs which where top of the line 5 years ago are seriously beginning to pale.

$1500 seems like a high price to me.
 
The main advantage of PTHD is actually the 48bit internal processing not the fact that you can load dsp plugins. This is the little detail that most home/semi-pro users including me some time ago are missing. i thought many times things such as: ''i just got my shiny 3rd gen 3,4GHz i7 with 16 gigs of RAM AND 3 TB of HDD. What can add to this setup an over a decade aged DSP system?''

They really sound smoother than any other DAW and this is anyway the reason than every serious engineer uses PTHD. 48bit processing is a great thing, if you really know what exactly it means.

Also, around the world, PTHD are used with the latest cutting-edge Mac Pros and PC's and the reason is not the plugins, is the sound processing philosophy.
 
This thread is getting better for me day by day!thank you bryanl i searched a bit about ceramic capacitors and you are right
 
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