Healthcare for everyone!

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,036
21
81
I forget what I was doing at the time, but a debate was going on in the back of my mind and then it occurred to me...

We really do need basic healthcare for everyone. Free for all citizens. Yes, the rest of us really do need to pay for it. Its good for society. Its good for humanity.

We need to stop arguing about providing healthcare to those who can't afford it.

I think the focus should be on dismantling the insurance companies. The actual cost of providing medical procedures to people isn't the expensive part - its the insurance. Its the red tape. Its all the overhead.

That is all. Merry Christmas. ;)
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Simple, important, correct. The only real issue here is how 'change' is hard for people.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Who is going to collect the funds and make the needed payments for the health care providers?

What is the determination of basic?

Not saying that we need the insurance companies; but otherwise; who will step in.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
I forget what I was doing at the time, but a debate was going on in the back of my mind and then it occurred to me...

We really do need basic healthcare for everyone. Free for all citizens. Yes, the rest of us really do need to pay for it. Its good for society. Its good for humanity.

We need to stop arguing about providing healthcare to those who can't afford it.

I think the focus should be on dismantling the insurance companies. The actual cost of providing medical procedures to people isn't the expensive part - its the insurance. Its the red tape. Its all the overhead.

That is all. Merry Christmas. ;)

uh wrong. people who do not contribute to society do not deserve the benefits of society. this goes for EVERYONE top to bottom. I refuse for my tax dollars to pay for assholes who won't take care of themselves. People who CAN'T(very very very very very very few can't) I have no problem with, but way to many won't and we should just let them starve to death.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers and each pot shall have ten hoops and I will make it felony to drink small beer.
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
1
81
I think the focus should be on dismantling the insurance companies. The actual cost of providing medical procedures to people isn't the expensive part - its the insurance. Its the red tape. Its all the overhead.

Completely false. Even the Democratic Senate that produced the healthcare bill found that only 15-20% of healthcare costs related to the overhead and profit of the insurance companies.

There are three major reasons that health care is more expensive in the US than other places. We receive more and higher quality healthcare, we live a less healthy lifestyle, and doctors here make far more money than in countries with single payer systems.

It feels better to go after the insurance companies than the doctors but if you put your feelings aside and look at the numbers it's clear where the money is going.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Completely false. Even the Democratic Senate that produced the healthcare bill found that only 15-20% of healthcare costs related to the overhead and profit of the insurance companies.

There are three major reasons that health care is more expensive in the US than other places. We receive more and higher quality healthcare, we live a less healthy lifestyle, and doctors here make far more money than in countries with single payer systems.

It feels better to go after the insurance companies than the doctors but if you put your feelings aside and look at the numbers it's clear where the money is going.

yeah, higher education is screwing our health care industry.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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Completely false. Even the Democratic Senate that produced the healthcare bill found that only 15-20&#37; of healthcare costs related to the overhead and profit of the insurance companies.

There are three major reasons that health care is more expensive in the US than other places. We receive more and higher quality healthcare, we live a less healthy lifestyle, and doctors here make far more money than in countries with single payer systems.

It feels better to go after the insurance companies than the doctors but if you put your feelings aside and look at the numbers it's clear where the money is going.

What percentage of healthcare costs are due to the difference between what physicians here are paid and France? Yes health care providers are paid better here, but as you say there is a whole lot more going on than the simplistic thinking of many here. Then again it's always easy for the ignorant to be experts to each other. Demographics, lifestyle and a whole lot more enter the situation and health care needs a lot of help now to be able to deal with near and long term problems, but to paraphrase Dick "first thing we do is kill all the doctors and insurance companies" thinking is still widespread.
 
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shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
The Washington Post had a good article on this today. Republicans are really good at screaming "Kill Obamacare! Kill Obamacare!" And that wonderful, amazingly better alternative they've been promising? Details later. Much, much, much, much later. (Don't hold your breath.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...lth-care-law/2011/12/14/gIQApUB8FP_story.html

More than a year after Republicans first pledged to &#8220;repeal and replace&#8221; President Obama&#8217;s new health-care law, the GOP is still struggling to answer a basic question.

Replace it .&#8201;.&#8201;. with what?

The repeal-and-replace argument has been a central line of attack in the GOP&#8217;s anti-Obama assault, both on the presidential campaign trail and on Capitol Hill.

In Congress, the new Republican-led House took a symbolic vote to repeal the law in January. But since then, nothing has happened. The House hasn&#8217;t passed anything new to take its place.

On the campaign trail, both former House speaker Newt Gingrich (Ga.) and former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney have said they want to repeal the law.

To replace it, they have reused several ideas from 2008 GOP nominee John McCain. Instead of a mandate to buy insurance, the two current front-runners would offer ways to make insurance cheaper: new tax credits, new bargains on policies from out-of-state.

But even some conservatives say these ideas might not work as advertised. And they would only be the beginning of a true &#8220;replacement&#8221; for Obama&#8217;s sweeping law.

With the 2012 elections less than a year away, Republicans&#8217; struggle over health care could be a political liability. Democrats will blast them for breaking a promise.

It could be even more of a problem after the election. If the GOP can repeal the law, it would reopen the ugliest political fight of the past five years.

But the GOP wouldn&#8217;t have a plan to win it.


&#8220;If Republicans aren&#8217;t talking about how they would replace Obamacare,&#8221; said Michael Cannon, the libertarian Cato Institute&#8217;s director of health policy studies, &#8220;there are two good reasons for that.&#8221;

&#8220;The first one is: They&#8217;re winning the argument. Why would they change the subject?&#8221; Cannon said, meaning that Republicans have won support by focusing only on the &#8220;repeal&#8221; part of their promise. &#8220;The second one is: Their current proposals [for replacement] aren&#8217;t ready for prime time.&#8221;

Obama&#8217;s health-care law stretches over hundreds of pages, making a sweeping attempt to solve two long-standing problems. One was the millions of uninsured people. The other was the fast-rising cost of medical care.

To address the first, the law simply mandated that every American buy health insurance. If not, people could face a fine of $695 or more. To address the second, the bill drives hospitals &#8212; especially those treating Medicare patients &#8212; toward more efficient treatments.

To Republicans, the law looked like a jury-rigged mess, tainted by special favors and bloated government. They attacked the &#8220;individual mandate&#8221; as federal over-reaching, and the efficiency efforts as a first step toward the rationing of medical care.

It worked, and it is still working.

Last fall, the GOP won a whopping 63 new House seats. This year, Republicans are still campaigning to repeal the law, which a recent poll showed is viewed unfavorably by 44 percent of Americans (and favorably by only 37 percent).

But, at the same time, the GOP promised to unveil its own solutions to the same problems.


&#8220;We can do better. We can do better than their government takeover of health care,&#8221; Rep. Mike Pence (R-Ind.) said in January, when all 242 House Republicans and three Democrats voted to repeal the law. That repeal measure stalled, as expected, in the Democrat-held Senate. &#8220;It all begins with today,&#8221; Pence said.

In the House, however, not much has happened since.

Some Republican members have sketched out their own plans. One would let people take their health insurance with them from job to job. Another limits the damages handed out in malpractice suits. Another would let people get insurance through private associations, not just their employers.

But none has been passed.

&#8220;Thus far, the relevant committees have been focused on oversight to protect the American people from the effects of the law, and repeal,&#8221; Michael Steel, a spokesman for House Speaker John A. Boehner (R-Ohio), said in an e-mail. &#8220;I expect we will see more &#8216;replace&#8217; efforts in the coming year.&#8221;

On the campaign trail, the two GOP front-runners are men who have both embraced the hated &#8220;individual mandate&#8221; in the past. But now, both Gingrich and Romney say they would repeal the bill if they could.


But [many Republican politicians] can see the political logic [in not proposing a specific replacement to Obamacare.] As Democrats learned, changing health care means dealing with a series of volcanic issues: fairness, malpractice, the proper role of government. And life and death.

If &#8220;repeal&#8221; is enough for the GOP primary, they said, then the details of &#8220;replace&#8221; should wait until later.

&#8220;You don&#8217;t want to be terribly detailed,&#8221; said Rep. Michael C. Burgess (R-Tex.), who advised McCain in his presidential run, and saw the details of his ideas turned into weapons by Obama. &#8220;It&#8217;s a whole lot easier to demagogue the &#8216;con&#8217; than it is to defend the &#8216;pro.&#8217;&#8201;&#8221;

And there you have it, folks, the whole Republican strategy wrapped up into and small, easy-to-understand package: demagogue Obamacare, but never, ever put forth a specific plan for an alternative. Because any specific alternative that substantively addresses the "volcanic issues" listed above is going to be at least as bad as Republicans claim Obamacare is.
 

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,036
21
81
uh wrong. people who do not contribute to society do not deserve the benefits of society.

I agree; but you might be misunderstanding my (revised) stance. This isn't about the non-motivated welfare moochers. I'm talking about those people who do have jobs, work extra hard, but don't have jobs that offer affordable health insurance - and they happen to have a particular medical condition that requires extremely expensive medication. Medication that is only expensive because pharmaceuticals and insurance make it expensive.

I used to think the same as you - and focus on those just taking from the system. Its taken me years of observation and some life changes (such as having a family of my own) to finally realize that this whole debate is stupid and counterproductive. The moochers are pathetic. Their only suffering is that of ignorance and self-damage. But that is one end of the extreme. See past that... and there is a very large group of people between them and those who have insurance through their company. They do contribute to society. They just have a bad roll of the dice. Some of them contribute far more than those who do have jobs with insurance - not everyone can have that kind of job.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
I agree; but you might be misunderstanding my (revised) stance. This isn't about the non-motivated welfare moochers. I'm talking about those people who do have jobs, work extra hard, but don't have jobs that offer affordable health insurance - and they happen to have a particular medical condition that requires extremely expensive medication. Medication that is only expensive because pharmaceuticals and insurance make it expensive.

I used to think the same as you - and focus on those just taking from the system. Its taken me years of observation and some life changes (such as having a family of my own) to finally realize that this whole debate is stupid and counterproductive. The moochers are pathetic. Their only suffering is that of ignorance and self-damage. But that is one end of the extreme. See past that... and there is a very large group of people between them and those who have insurance through their company. They do contribute to society. They just have a bad roll of the dice. Some of them contribute far more than those who do have jobs with insurance - not everyone can have that kind of job.

I've said numerous times on here I have no issue with socialized medicine or any sort of welfare programs as long as EVERYONE pays the same rate in taxes. If you make 1000 a year, pay 30%, and I see no problem with the rest of us helping to support you, you contribute as much as you can to society, so society will contribute as much as it can for you. This doesn't mean we shouldn't be harsh as hell on those who refuse to contribute and still want what society has to offer. Again this goes for the top as well. I do not support welfare for only certain groups, it should be an all or nothing kind of deal since we're all in this together.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
96
86
Completely false. Even the Democratic Senate that produced the healthcare bill found that only 15-20% of healthcare costs related to the overhead and profit of the insurance companies.

There are three major reasons that health care is more expensive in the US than other places. We receive more and higher quality healthcare, we live a less healthy lifestyle, and doctors here make far more money than in countries with single payer systems.

It feels better to go after the insurance companies than the doctors but if you put your feelings aside and look at the numbers it's clear where the money is going.


Hey assface, the sum total of all physicians salaries in the US comes out to less than 10% of the total healthcare expenditure in the US. Before you spout shit out of your mouth, learn to not be an idiot.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Hey assface, the sum total of all physicians salaries in the US comes out to less than 10% of the total healthcare expenditure in the US. Before you spout shit out of your mouth, learn to not be an idiot.

what about paying for the expensive office space? how about all their staff and equipment? last i checked a doctor simply doesn't wander around naked helping people by himself.
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
1
81
What percentage of healthcare costs are due to the difference between what physicians here are paid and France? Yes health care providers are paid better here, but as you say there is a whole lot more going on than the simplistic thinking of many here. Then again it's always easy for the ignorant to be experts to each other. Demographics, lifestyle and a whole lot more enter the situation and health care needs a lot of help now to be able to deal with near and long term problems, but to paraphrase Dick "first thing we do is kill all the doctors and insurance companies" thinking is still widespread.

The data here is a bit old but it has some good breakdowns.

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/06/physicians-incomes-and-healthcare-costs.html
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
1
81
Hey assface, the sum total of all physicians salaries in the US comes out to less than 10% of the total healthcare expenditure in the US. Before you spout shit out of your mouth, learn to not be an idiot.

No need to get personal asshole. My source says it's over 20%. Where's your source?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
And there you have it, folks, the whole Republican strategy wrapped up into and small, easy-to-understand package: demagogue Obamacare, but never, ever put forth a specific plan for an alternative. Because any specific alternative that substantively addresses the "volcanic issues" listed above is going to be at least as bad as Republicans claim Obamacare is.

Some time back I said that "healthcare" reform was crap and I stand by it. They took good and bad ideas and rolled them into a 2K page ball of fluff. When health care was foremost in the public mind we could have had experts who have a clue present options which would really help. Nope, just shove legislation through that would not address real problems. The Republicans? They have no clue either. It's as if everyone got together to create the worst of all possible worlds and made sure they remained ignorant. No one is seamless for this mess.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Let's enslave all doctors, nurses and pharma scientists and force them to provide medical care for free!!!
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Let's enslave all doctors, nurses and pharma scientists and force them to provide medical care for free!!!

I'd just prefer reasonable wages, but that won't happen until education costs come down.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
I'd just prefer reasonable wages, but that won't happen until education costs come down.

And this is why history repeats itself. Unlimited amount of knowledge and information and people still want what's bad for them. Protectionism, regulation, price ceilings. All proven to work so well throughout history.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
And this is why history repeats itself. Unlimited amount of knowledge and information and people still want what's bad for them. Protectionism, regulation, price ceilings. All proven to work so well throughout history.

Or you know we could make it easier for people to practice medicine, get rid of the current monopolies that control it, via education and licensing.
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
1
81
It appears that the difference between the US and Germany is about 3/4% of the cost of healthcare, which is about 3% of the costs of American health care. Cutting wages in half appears to save perhaps a percent.

I'm not following your math. If we spend 22% of our healthcare dollars on Physicians salaries compared to other OECD countries and we reduce that to 15% that's a savings of 7%. This is only one of the reasons that health care costs more here. As I said in my first post it's a few different things.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Or you know we could make it easier for people to practice medicine, get rid of the current monopolies that control it, via education and licensing.

I agree with that and we should break the monopoly in medicine but putting in price ceilings only creates more problems.