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Health Care Poll

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senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
34,992
5,037
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: senseamp
You will still be able to buy supplemental coverage if you aren't happy with Medicare coverage.
Think about what you just said here.

If it is so great, why would anyone need additional coverage?

Now, how the hell are we supposed to pay for universal healthcare? Keep in mind, with current spending, we are already borrowing $3 billion each day from China.

You people who want to make our federal government bigger and stronger are morons, and there's just no sense in arguing with you.
Even current insurance an average person has doesn't cover everything, so if you want to hold a nationalized health care to a higher standard than the current system, that's your call. My rule is don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
For very expensive and experimental treatments not covered under universal coverage, you can get additional coverage out of pocket.
We already spend at least 50% more than the next country on healthcare, and get completely mediocre results. So there is no shortage of money to pay for universal healthcare, what's important is the total healthcare spending, not who pays for it.
The extra money businesses will have by not paying out of control health insurance premiums will more than cover any new taxes needed to pay for universal health care.
There is no sense in arguing with us, but for a different reason. It's inevitable that we will win, because the current model is doomed to failure, and you have not come up with a working alternative inspite of having decades to do so.
 

agentbad

Senior member
Nov 2, 2004
269
0
76
"HR 3075 provides truly comprehensive health care reform by allowing families to claim a tax credit for the rising cost of health insurance premiums. With many families now spending close to $1000 or even more for their monthly premiums, they need real tax relief ? including a dollar-for-dollar credit for every cent they spend on health care premiums ? to make medical care more affordable."

Ron Paul


Now I don't really support Ron Paul but tax credit each year for insurance premiums doesn't sound to bad. The people who actually do there taxes will see a good portion of their money come back to them. Maybe this would help people afford insurance without choosing a job just for the benefits. I would prefer universal health care but this would be a stepping stone at least.
 

SpongeBob

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2001
2,825
0
76
Originally posted by: agentbad
"HR 3075 provides truly comprehensive health care reform by allowing families to claim a tax credit for the rising cost of health insurance premiums. With many families now spending close to $1000 or even more for their monthly premiums, they need real tax relief ? including a dollar-for-dollar credit for every cent they spend on health care premiums ? to make medical care more affordable."

Ron Paul


Now I don't really support Ron Paul but tax credit each year for insurance premiums doesn't sound to bad. The people who actually do there taxes will see a good portion of their money come back to them. Maybe this would help people afford insurance without choosing a job just for the benefits. I would prefer universal health care but this would be a stepping stone at least.
That resolution is a step toward universal care, in that it is most definitely a step away from a single-payer system which would mean long lines and waiting months for treatment meaning less care for all.
 

engineereeyore

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2005
2,070
0
0
I personally think the biggest problem is health care cost, specifically with all the exuberant law suits that are being handed out against doctors. Put a cap on those and help reduce insurance cost that are being paid for by patients. This is not the only change that would need to occur, obviously, but it'd be a start. I'm not even going to get into Medicaid. But yes, I'd support a national health care system, though it'd have to be a lot better managed than Medicaid and Medicare.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,429
20
81
Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
I'd rather not derail this thread into an immigration debate to be honest.
It's a big issue here in the U.S. since that's a component of the nation's runaway health care costs problem. The cheap labor lobby and the altruists don't want to talk about the costs associated with it.

 
Oct 30, 2004
11,429
20
81
Originally posted by: agentbad

I think making the health care system national would dramatically reduce the strain on much of our populace that can barely afford to live. Suddenly they will have money for other things like a good education which in turn will get them out of the poverty cycle.
It could also be a huge boon for U.S. businesses, especially smaller businesses. Imagine how much time, money, and effort goes into maintaining benefits plans for employees. What if American businesses didn't have to worry about that anymore?
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,429
20
81
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
If you think for one second that taxes won't increase exponentially from the year that universal heathcare is implemented, you are not only delusional, but also an idiot.
We'd have higher taxes but lower insurance costs and lower benefits managements costs, etc. You have to look at the big picture. Supposedly we're already spending a higher percentage of our GDP on health care than other first world nations.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,429
20
81
Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek
If you want to be a socialist, move to a socialist country. Those of us who work for a living are tired of you bilking us out of what's ours in the name of "the greater good." This country wasn't founded on the principles of caring for everyone, it was founded on keeping what's rightfully yours. Make whatever stink you want about roads or whatever other program you want to try to back up your position but understand it's baseless and irrelevant. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you want a socialist utopia head on over to your favorite socialist country. We here are happy to work for what we feel we need. Thanks and merry Christmas.
Who is John Galt?

Are you certain that you want to live in a truly laissez-faire society? How would you feel about having to pay for every little thing you do, such as driving down a road? How would the nation's utility infrastructure operate if private utility companies couldn't use eminent domain to get easements to lay gas pipes and power wires across people's property? What if the layout of the nation's roads were retarded and inefficient as a result of private property owners refusing to allow easements or to sell easements at reasonable prices?

Do you really think that all forms and degrees of socialism are necessarily evil and bad? Is it possible that sometimes socialist policies might prove to be in one's rational selfish interest?

In reality, although we are individuals and although there is no such thing as a collective mind or consciousness, we don't live on islands and one man's actions can have an effect on another man's well being and the amount of resources available (land, water, air, etc.) are limited.

In the case of health care, it really isn't very amenable to perfect competition. Purchasing health care isn't like buying a widget where you can do price comparisons and take your time shopping. Also, oftentimes the care needed will be far beyond what any one individual could afford. I actually think that a rational socialized medicine would prove to be in an individual's rational selfish interest simply because of the efficiency savings. The mongrel semi-socialized semi-privatized system that we have right now certainly isn't working. Of course, as with anything else in economics, a great many other factors come into play that would affect the cost, efficiency, and efficacy of the program, such as the overall level of rationality of the nation's populace.
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
4
81
Originally posted by: SpongeBob
What senseamp doesn't understand is that the fed govt. is even worse at managing things than big business. Take it from someone who is a fed govt. employee.
I have worked for the government a few times too and fully agree.

The government that brought you the ever wonderful
FEMA - Katrina.. great job
INS - How many illegals again.. you don't even have an estimate?
DEA - It's easier for me to get an 8-ball then it is to get some flexoral.
IRS
The corrupt CIA

Yah I want my healthcare operated the same as way organizations have handled their jobs.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,349
9,093
126
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: senseamp
If you want to live in a tax haven banana republic, move to one.
We'll build the type of government we want over here without you.
Our glorious future, comrade.
If that happens, it will be the GOP that brings it to you, in the name of keeping track of terrists.
Meaning that you're in favor of such loss of civil rights when it suits your own ideological agenda, and opposed to it only when you think it serves the agenda of your ideological opponents. And for this lack of principles, you expect to be rewarded like a fsckin' savior.

:roll:

And for the record, I'm not in favor of the "status quo" or the Republican party. As always, there are more than 2 solutions. Just because you live in a black and white world doesn't mean that the rest of us do.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,061
494
126
Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Originally posted by: SpongeBob
What senseamp doesn't understand is that the fed govt. is even worse at managing things than big business. Take it from someone who is a fed govt. employee.
I have worked for the government a few times too and fully agree.

The government that brought you the ever wonderful
FEMA - Katrina.. great job
INS - How many illegals again.. you don't even have an estimate?
DEA - It's easier for me to get an 8-ball then it is to get some flexoral.
IRS
The corrupt CIA

Yah I want my healthcare operated the same as way organizations have handled their jobs.
Dont forget the TSA. I worked on the initial project to hire security screeners. The waste I saw was unbelievable. Each site had x amount of seats. Ranging from 10 to 350. Each site got two Dell 2800 series servers. Each site got GB switches. The DB app sat on one server. And then that server also served up the test to users on Dell desktops.

The second server sat around collecting dust or walking off one night for a smoke. Then there was the air travel. Really sad. You were not allowed to buy a ticket other than open ended one way tickets. These tickets were 1 notch below first class. Yes my one way ticket between minneapolis and peoria was 968 bucks. My 1 way ticket from minneapolis to Vegas was 1430 bucks. I tried arguing with them to let me buy cheaper non refundable tickets which were in the 250 dollar range but got denied.

All that computer equipment, cell phones, printers. I bet the majority of that got lost and the govt billed.

 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
101,420
5,486
126
Originally posted by: senseamp
GOP had since Nixon to fix the HMO/privatized healthcare mess they created. Time is running up. This is one issue I am not losing any sleep over, because I think it's inevitable that we'll have universal healthcare. Big business now sees the writing on the wall that they can't compete if they have to carry the exploding healthcare burden for their employees. So now it's not 1993 when it was a bunch of liberals vs health care industry. Now it's big business vs big business with liberals on the side lines with pop corn :D
wage controls put in place by the democratic congress and FDR were the republicans fault? that's news to me.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,061
494
126
Havent you heard the news? In the fantasy black and white world of Senseamp everything is the republicans fault. Him and Dave should get a room.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,429
20
81

Sad but true, some folks only want to blame the Republicans and completely fail to blame the awful Democrats. I blame both parties! They're both rotten!
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Sad but true, some folks only want to blame the Republicans and completely fail to blame the awful Democrats. I blame both parties! They're both rotten!
QFT!
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
34,992
5,037
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: senseamp
If you want to live in a tax haven banana republic, move to one.
We'll build the type of government we want over here without you.
Our glorious future, comrade.
If that happens, it will be the GOP that brings it to you, in the name of keeping track of terrists.
Meaning that you're in favor of such loss of civil rights when it suits your own ideological agenda, and opposed to it only when you think it serves the agenda of your ideological opponents. And for this lack of principles, you expect to be rewarded like a fsckin' savior.

:roll:

And for the record, I'm not in favor of the "status quo" or the Republican party. As always, there are more than 2 solutions. Just because you live in a black and white world doesn't mean that the rest of us do.
Right, there is always some diversion. Those who blocked Hillary's plan had 15 years to implement their own solution. Where is it?

 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
34,992
5,037
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Havent you heard the news? In the fantasy black and white world of Senseamp everything is the republicans fault. Him and Dave should get a room.
Republicans blocked Clinton's health care plan, but they have not come up with any solution of their own. Seems to me that if they blocked a solution and haven't fixed anything themselves, it IS their fault.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,349
9,093
126
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: senseamp
If you want to live in a tax haven banana republic, move to one.
We'll build the type of government we want over here without you.
Our glorious future, comrade.
If that happens, it will be the GOP that brings it to you, in the name of keeping track of terrists.
Meaning that you're in favor of such loss of civil rights when it suits your own ideological agenda, and opposed to it only when you think it serves the agenda of your ideological opponents. And for this lack of principles, you expect to be rewarded like a fsckin' savior.

:roll:

And for the record, I'm not in favor of the "status quo" or the Republican party. As always, there are more than 2 solutions. Just because you live in a black and white world doesn't mean that the rest of us do.
Right, there is always some diversion. Those who blocked Hillary's plan had 15 years to implement their own solution. Where is it?
And you're the diversion. Hillary's "plan" is scarcely more than a mandate requiring everyone to purchase insurance, similar to existing state laws with car insurance. That you think of that as a "solution" only goes to prove what a partisan idiot you are.

That's an ACLU video BTW (although I doubt you even watched it). Hardly GOP propaganda...
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
34,992
5,037
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: senseamp
If you want to live in a tax haven banana republic, move to one.
We'll build the type of government we want over here without you.
Our glorious future, comrade.
If that happens, it will be the GOP that brings it to you, in the name of keeping track of terrists.
Meaning that you're in favor of such loss of civil rights when it suits your own ideological agenda, and opposed to it only when you think it serves the agenda of your ideological opponents. And for this lack of principles, you expect to be rewarded like a fsckin' savior.

:roll:

And for the record, I'm not in favor of the "status quo" or the Republican party. As always, there are more than 2 solutions. Just because you live in a black and white world doesn't mean that the rest of us do.
Right, there is always some diversion. Those who blocked Hillary's plan had 15 years to implement their own solution. Where is it?
And you're the diversion. Hillary's "plan" is scarcely more than a mandate requiring everyone to purchase insurance, similar to existing state laws with car insurance. That you think of that as a "solution" only goes to prove what a partisan idiot you are.

That's an ACLU video BTW (although I doubt you even watched it). Hardly GOP propaganda...
I still don't see a republican solution for this problem. Where is it? It's been 15 years, and nothing. The problem keeps getting worse, and all Republicans are doing is blocking Democrats' solutions, but not offering any of their own.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,349
9,093
126
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: senseamp
If you want to live in a tax haven banana republic, move to one.
We'll build the type of government we want over here without you.
Our glorious future, comrade.
If that happens, it will be the GOP that brings it to you, in the name of keeping track of terrists.
Meaning that you're in favor of such loss of civil rights when it suits your own ideological agenda, and opposed to it only when you think it serves the agenda of your ideological opponents. And for this lack of principles, you expect to be rewarded like a fsckin' savior.

:roll:

And for the record, I'm not in favor of the "status quo" or the Republican party. As always, there are more than 2 solutions. Just because you live in a black and white world doesn't mean that the rest of us do.
Right, there is always some diversion. Those who blocked Hillary's plan had 15 years to implement their own solution. Where is it?
And you're the diversion. Hillary's "plan" is scarcely more than a mandate requiring everyone to purchase insurance, similar to existing state laws with car insurance. That you think of that as a "solution" only goes to prove what a partisan idiot you are.

That's an ACLU video BTW (although I doubt you even watched it). Hardly GOP propaganda...
I still don't see a republican solution for this problem. Where is it? It's been 15 years, and nothing. The problem keeps getting worse, and all Republicans are doing is blocking Democrats' solutions, but not offering any of their own.
I'm sorry, but what part about the "I'm not in favor of the Republican party" and "just because you live in a black and white world doesn't mean that the rest of us do" are you too fscking stupid to understand?
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
34,992
5,037
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: senseamp
If you want to live in a tax haven banana republic, move to one.
We'll build the type of government we want over here without you.
Our glorious future, comrade.
If that happens, it will be the GOP that brings it to you, in the name of keeping track of terrists.
Meaning that you're in favor of such loss of civil rights when it suits your own ideological agenda, and opposed to it only when you think it serves the agenda of your ideological opponents. And for this lack of principles, you expect to be rewarded like a fsckin' savior.

:roll:

And for the record, I'm not in favor of the "status quo" or the Republican party. As always, there are more than 2 solutions. Just because you live in a black and white world doesn't mean that the rest of us do.
Right, there is always some diversion. Those who blocked Hillary's plan had 15 years to implement their own solution. Where is it?
And you're the diversion. Hillary's "plan" is scarcely more than a mandate requiring everyone to purchase insurance, similar to existing state laws with car insurance. That you think of that as a "solution" only goes to prove what a partisan idiot you are.

That's an ACLU video BTW (although I doubt you even watched it). Hardly GOP propaganda...
I still don't see a republican solution for this problem. Where is it? It's been 15 years, and nothing. The problem keeps getting worse, and all Republicans are doing is blocking Democrats' solutions, but not offering any of their own.
I'm sorry, but what part about the "I'm not in favor of the Republican party" and "just because you live in a black and white world doesn't mean that the rest of us do" are you too fscking stupid to understand?
Well, who cares what you are in favor of or not? You have not gotten your solution, if it even exists, implemented either. How are you better than the Republicans? The only party that is coming up with solutions is the Democrat party. Those who shoot down those solutions have a responsibility to propose and implement their own solutions, and if not, they (and you) should step aside and let the Democrats fix the problem.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
34,992
5,037
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: senseamp
... and all Republicans are doing is blocking Democrats' solutions...
Because Hillary's solution is unconstitutional. ;)
Well, if that's the case, call her bluff, pass it, and let the USSC overturn it.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Genx87
Havent you heard the news? In the fantasy black and white world of Senseamp everything is the republicans fault. Him and Dave should get a room.
Republicans blocked Clinton's health care plan, but they have not come up with any solution of their own. Seems to me that if they blocked a solution and haven't fixed anything themselves, it IS their fault.
psssst, Hillary's original plan failed with a Democrat-controled Congress... pass it on! :Q
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,349
9,093
126
Originally posted by: senseamp
Well, who cares what you are in favor of or not? You have not gotten your solution, if it even exists, implemented either. How are you better than the Republicans? The only party that is coming up with solutions is the Democrat party. Those who shoot down those solutions have a responsibility to propose and implement their own solutions, and if not, they (and you) should step aside and let the Democrats fix the problem.
And here's the distraction, in classic "SOMETHING MUST BE DONE" knee-jerk fashion.

My "solution" is not relevant. The argument is that your "solution" is unacceptably flawed (in this case, with legitimate privacy and other civil rights concerns). What that means is that you have not presented any solution at all. For example, if someone said that something must be done about the drug problem in your area, and your "solution" was the death penalty for first-time offenders, that's not exactly an acceptable solution, now is it? In which case, complaints of others not providing solutions are just distractions from your own knee-jerking.

And as for your usual mindless brainless partisan trolling, I refer you back to the fact that that is an ACLU video (and I am an ACLU member BTW). This is a legitimate liberal concern you're trying to blow off as GOP propaganda. Your ignorance is not strength. You're only fooling yourself.
 

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