Head gasket removal trouble

[Ultima]

The head gasket blew up on my car nearly a week ago. As the car wasn't worth taking to the garage to get fixed ('88 Dodge Shadow), I decided to change it myself. After going through hell trying to take off the manifolds (a few of the bolts were just about impossible to reach), I decided to just disconnect the exhaust pipe and take out the head with the manifolds attached.

Well, that didn't go so well either. I took off one of the exhaust pipe bolts, but the other one won't come off, I can't use a wrench to take it off because the bolts are too stripped, and I can't use a ratchet because there's not enough room around the bolts to put the ratchet on (I used a ratchet on the other side). I tried to saw the bolt off, but after 1/2 hour of sawing in that inaccessible location I only scratched the bolt (and the metal bracket below it)! I'm really pissed off now, that one bolt is keeping me from pulling the head off but I can't remove it! Any suggestions on what else I could do?

Edit: I've used WD-40, Screwloose, and some other crap on the bolt but none of that worked. It's simply too rusted. Oh, I'm not so sure I have a blowtorch here, either

 

[bmacd]

WD-40 and a blow torch to soften the metal.

-=bmacd=-

 

[notfred]

First off, you're probably not going to be able to mount the head back on the car correctly with the exhasut manifold still attached, so you'll have to get it off anyway. As far as the exhasut manifold is concerned, here are my suggestions:

1) Use an impact wrench.

2) Cut the manifold off with a torch or hacksaw, get a new manifold at a junkyard or somewhere.

 

[Pepsi90919]

so how's that new car workin out

 

[ScoobMaster]

I am going to assume this is a 2.2 liter engine. I have done 4 of them (gets easier every time you do them).

I would advise forking out the whopping $6.00 or so for a new set of exhaust bolts and just cutting or chiseling the original ones off. I have NEVER in my 4 replacements gotten those bolts off in one piece (most Autozone or NAPA stores will have them). Also get the "tinfoil doughnut" gasket as the existing one is most likely FUBAR. You CAN keep the manifolds on and remove the head on these engines, but I recommended removing them once the head is off the block to replace those gaskets as well (it is FAR easier to get the manifolds off when the head is removed!!!) Don't forget to get a new timing belt and valve cover gasket (it would be silly not to replace these when you are down this far).

I also would advise you to get a new set of head bolts - they are not very expensive either and the old ones have been through a torture over the last few years (holding the head to the block and being torqued in and out). I have also gone as far as getting a 19mm (I think if I remember correctly) tap and running it through the block to clean out the threads (local Dodge dealership head mechanic recommended this).

I know that some extra steps here will make the job take a little longer, but (trust me on this - I speak from unfortunate experience) do it right the first time now while you have it apart! You DO NOT want to have to tear into it again in another 3-6 months!!!

 

[KMurphy]

If you do get the head off, take it to a machine shop and have it check to see if it's warped. They can re-surface it pretty cheap and it would save you from going through this whole procedure next month.

 

[Analog]

Originally posted by: ScoobMaster
I am going to assume this is a 2.2 liter engine. I have done 4 of them (gets easier every time you do them).

I would advise forking out the whopping $6.00 or so for a new set of exhaust bolts and just cutting or chiseling the original ones off. I have NEVER in my 4 replacements gotten those bolts off in one piece (most Autozone or NAPA stores will have them). Also get the "tinfoil doughnut" gasket as the existing one is most likely FUBAR. You CAN keep the manifolds on and remove the head on these engines, but I recommended removing them once the head is off the block to replace those gaskets as well (it is FAR easier to get the manifolds off when the head is removed!!!) Don't forget to get a new timing belt and valve cover gasket (it would be silly not to replace these when you are down this far).

wow scoobmaster, nice advice.

 

[MichaelD]

Great advice so far. It's all correct. Cut those bolts off, get the head resurfaced, replace EVERYTHING while you've got everything apart, use new bolts....other than that, 've got nothing to add.

 

The venerable 2.2 and 2.5 4 cylinders from Chrysler are known for rusting manifold bolts, these can be extremely difficult to remove if you do not own a torch because the springs cover the bolt, therefor you cannot easily cut it off with a hacksaw.

You are either going to have to belly up and buy a torch or a air chisel.
Scoobmaster is correct about the Head Bolts, you must replace them everytime you remove them, if you do not, you will end up with either another blown head gasket and/or broken head bolts.
Watch very closely the head bolts you purchase, Chrysler made two different sizes.

Good Luck.

 

[monckywrench]

 

[Ultima]

Hmm, I guess I'll go get an air chisel. I read on allpar.com a technique where you jack up the head by placing a jack under the cat, but I don't want to risk that on my old car. I'd rather pay for the air chisel than spend the next week sawing off that bolt. Thanks for the advice, I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[monckywrench]

(Delete previous blank post)
If you have access to a Dremel you can try cutting the hardware with a fiber-reinforced cutting wheel like the examples below. They can cut file-hard steel if fed gently. See your local hardware store or hobby shop. Unlike the common unreinforced wheels these are fairly tough.
examples

If you don't machine the head (I sometimes don't bother on expendable cars) at least scrape the head and block surfaces thoroughly and use a Fel-Pro blue head gasket. I spray those with Permatex Copper Coat or equivalent and have sealed some rather "marginal" surfaces.
I'm not brave enough to reuse the headbolts though.

 

[Ultima]

Wait, I'm gonna need compressed air for an air chisel, aren't I?

argh, this keeps getting more and more expensive... still cheap compared to if I brought it to the garage, though, I guess.

 

[ScoobMaster]

Hey Ultima:

If you don't have an air compressor, I have successfully cut them off (springs and all) with a Sawzall (reciprocating saw) and a good metal-cutting blade. If a compressor is available - chisel away

 

[Ultima]

Nope, I don't have compressed air. Those compressers are really expensive so forget that.
What the heck is a reciprocating saw?

 

[BatmanNate]

You might be able to use a dremel to recut the bolts and get them off if you're getting a new set anyway, assuming that the torch idea doesn't work.

 

[Ultima]

Ah, those sawzall are really expensive as well. Just checked...

I wonder if a screw extractor set would work? I think I know someone that has a reciprocating saw though, I'll have to ask.

 

[ProfessorFate]

One other option I could see would be to cut the exhaust pipe tubing below the manifold to head pipe junction. For that you could use a hacksaw and then when you put it all back together you'd have to drive it uncorked down to the muffler shop. OK, you're neighbors will hate you when you fire it up, but without air, a torch or any other tools to make your life easier this might be an option for ya.
Good luck.

 

[slag]

Where do you live? Perhaps one of us lives around you and could give you a hand. I have air, impact wrenches, air chisels, sawzall, dremmel, angle grinder, etc.. all of which could help you with your problem. Surely one of us is in or near the area you are in..

Slag

 

[Ultima]

Well, I got that bolt off! My friend's dad, who knows a lot more about mechanics than I do, got the bolt off. He took a socket that was slightly smaller and hammered it onto the nut, used a vise-grip on the bottom, used like 3 extensions poking between the manifold and put a pipe to the end of the ratchet and got it loose

I took the head off, and well it's definately the head gasket! It was cracked at the #1 cylinder where the water jacket is, and the other 3 cylinders have burn marks in them, I guess cause they weren't getting coolant. Anyway, now it's just putting the new head gasket in, putting the head back up and reattaching all those damn hoses and wires and hope that the timing is right and that everything works...

btw, I bought new head bolts but he said I really shouldn't bother, that I should just return them (and maybe I will considering I spent $25 on them! ($15 US?)).

 

[amdskip]

Are you gonna take the head to the machine shop? I would and have them check it all out. Replace all them bolts, not worth the money/time having to do this again next month.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Ultima
Well, I got that bolt off! My friend's dad, who knows a lot more about mechanics than I do, got the bolt off. He took a socket that was slightly smaller and hammered it onto the nut, used a vise-grip on the bottom, used like 3 extensions poking between the manifold and put a pipe to the end of the ratchet and got it loose

I took the head off, and well it's definately the head gasket! It was cracked at the #1 cylinder where the water jacket is, and the other 3 cylinders have burn marks in them, I guess cause they weren't getting coolant. Anyway, now it's just putting the new head gasket in, putting the head back up and reattaching all those damn hoses and wires and hope that the timing is right and that everything works...

btw, I bought new head bolts but he said I really shouldn't bother, that I should just return them (and maybe I will considering I spent $25 on them! ($15 US?)).

Stop! You're getting ahead of yourself.

First, Keep your new bolts! It's worth it. Second, take that head to a machine shop and have them at least look it over. Ask them how much they would charge to surface it.. It probably wouldn't be that much, and it would be worth it.

Don't hope the timing is right, get a new timing belt and timing gun, and do it right. You'll be sorry if you don't....

 

[Ronstang]

DO NOT REUSE THE HEAD BOLTS!!!!!!!! They are torque-to-yield bolts and stretch by nature to achieve the proper clamoping force....once used I THROW THEM AWAY...regardless of the factory saying they are good for 3 cycles....DO NOT BELIEVE TIS CRAP!!! If you reuse the bolts you will be redoing the head gasket in a very short time. It should only cost about $30 to have the head resurfaced too....spend it!!!!!

 

[Ultima]

Okay, okay, well everyone is saying not to reuse the bolts, I guess I won't since I already bought the other ones, but I still think that $25 is insane for 8 bolts

I don't know if I'm gonna bother resurfacing the head as I'm gonna list the car for sale once it's back together and running, but tomorrow morning I'm going to start putting it back together and I'll be back here if I have problems

That old head gasket was really nasty looking...

 

[BentValve]

Alot of good advice here, I can't add much except I too have done quite a few these and would like to stress the machine shop part, hope for the best but be prepared to buy another head.

Good Luck