HDTV capture cards?

[Amaron]

Considering the cost of an HDTV and the fact that I already have a high quality monitor I've always been interested in an HDTV card. I've been looking for years but I still have yet to see one. Lots of companies seem to be putting out HDTV cable tuners but none with standard hdmi/component inputs.

Anyone know what the hold up is on these sorts of cards? Is there some sort of conspiracy going on to keep us all from getting cheap HDTV?

With all the new consoles coming out hyping HDTV I would think there would at least be a few models from the big capture card makers.

 

[SynthDude2001]

You aren't going to find any cheap card ("cheap" meaning <$1000 as far as I know) that takes Component or HDMI inputs for capture any time soon. I'd think that the main reason is that the uncompressed video is way too much data for the PCI bus to transfer (I'm not sure if this applies to PCI-E too), so it would have to be encoded on-card before sending over the bus...which would make such a card incredibly expensive (and which is why I assume they all are still).

You can buy an HDTV tuner, but with those you are limited to just OTA broadcasts (and unencrypted digital/HD cable on some cards). Pretty much the only way to view an HDMI/Component signal on your computer at this point is to have a monitor with those direct inputs...(and then of course you couldn't record)

 

[Viper GTS]

There are lots of ways to capture transport streams, there's absolutely no reason to bother with component, HDMI, DVI, or any other form of A/V capture. Why bother grabbing the end product when you can get it bit perfect how it's delivered to you?

An HD tuner card + appropriate software will allow you to record transport streams from OTA sources, & many set-top boxes provide transport stream output via firewire (for cable users).

If you have a set-top box look into virtual d-vhs.

Viper GTS

 

[Amaron]

Originally posted by: Viper GTS
There are lots of ways to capture transport streams, there's absolutely no reason to bother with component, HDMI, DVI, or any other form of A/V capture. Why bother grabbing the end product when you can get it bit perfect how it's delivered to you?

I don't even watch TV or sports so capturing broadcast streams seems pointless to me. I understand the PCI argument but then why not a PCI express card by now?

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: Amaron

Originally posted by: Viper GTS
There are lots of ways to capture transport streams, there's absolutely no reason to bother with component, HDMI, DVI, or any other form of A/V capture. Why bother grabbing the end product when you can get it bit perfect how it's delivered to you?

I don't even watch TV or sports so capturing broadcast streams seems pointless to me. I understand the PCI argument but then why not a PCI express card by now?

So what exactly do you want to capture? Transport streams are the raw MPEG streams that are delivered to your TV, set-top box, or whatever is decoding them.

The point to all of this is that it's a horrendous waste of time and energy to deal with the decoded data (HDMI) or even worse analog signals (component) when the pure, unaltered source (or as close as you're going to get to it) is right there for the grabbing. It's like insisting on copying a DVD via component capture & line in when you can just pop the DVD in your PC & take the VOB files directly.

Viper GTS

 

[Amaron]

The point to all of this is that it's a horrendous waste of time and energy to deal with the decoded data (HDMI) or even worse analog signals (component) when the pure, unaltered source (or as close as you're going to get to it) is right there for the grabbing.

Last I checked the only place you can get encoded HDTV input is from a cable company. Are you suggesting you think the only use for a television set is to watch stuff on cable TV?

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: Amaron

The point to all of this is that it's a horrendous waste of time and energy to deal with the decoded data (HDMI) or even worse analog signals (component) when the pure, unaltered source (or as close as you're going to get to it) is right there for the grabbing.

Last I checked the only place you can get encoded HDTV input is from a cable company. Are you suggesting you think the only use for a television set is to watch stuff on cable TV?

Where exactly are you getting HD content that would require some sort of card to recieve but DIDN'T come from a broadcast somewhere?

Whether it's coming from OTA broadcast, your cable company, or your satellite provider HDTV is currently delivered in an MPEG-2 transport stream. Now in the future this will almost certainly change, I know the satellite companies are looking to move to h.264 but regardless there is a digital stream being sent to you. In the case of both cable and OTA you can easily record that stream. Satellite really isn't my area but it wouldn't surprise me if there's a way to get transport streams off a satellite broadcast as well.

HD-DVD, Blu-Ray, WMVHD, etc. of course are an entirely different story as you would not need a card to receive... But you would still have the digital source right there for your use.

You can watch all the HDTV you want on your PC with a $100 tuner. You can record it, too. If you have cable you can rent a set-top box for $6 a month and watch and record all the HD you want.

I'm not sure what else you're looking for.

Viper GTS

 

[Amaron]

I'm not sure what else you're looking for.

Viper GTS

I'm not sure you read the original post either. I already gave a clear large scale example of a huge need for component/hdmi input. An entire industry in fact.

Consoles.

Not only did I give that example already I specifically said I'm not interested in any kind of broadcast/cable/television input which is the only stuff that comes in encrypted. You then went on to explain how I could get all that stuff in encrypted after I said I didn't need it.

Was there some reason for you to preach to me about how I should be getting the exact thing I said I didn't want in the 3rd sentence of the first post?

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: Amaron

I'm not sure what else you're looking for.

Viper GTS

I'm not sure you read the original post either. I already gave a clear large scale example of a huge need for component/hdmi input. An entire industry in fact.

Consoles.

Not only did I give that example already I specifically said I'm not interested in any kind of broadcast/cable/television input which is the only stuff that comes in encrypted. You then went on to explain how I could get all that stuff in encrypted after I said I didn't need it.

Was there some reason for you to preach to me about how I should be getting the exact thing I said I didn't want in the 3rd sentence of the first post?

Then why on earth were you talking about "HDTV card(s)" and "getting cheap HDTV" and "capture card makers?"

:roll:

What you're looking for is called a scan converter, and there are lots of models out there. Your PC doesn't have to be involved when a simple scan conversion is all it takes to take advantage of your (relatively) high resolution display.

If you don't already own a display with component inputs then a scan converter will give you decent quality though not full HD. HDMI to analog (assuming you are looking for analog VGA) is a bit trickier, but can still be done. If you have a DVI input then a simple physical cable conversion is all you need in most cases.

Example of a component to VGA scan converter
Another Example

I could have told you that in the first fvcking post if you'd actually said exactly what you wanted to do instead of trying to have your little 007 moment. Congratulations, I had no clue WTF you were talking about.

Viper GTS

 

[Amaron]

Then why on earth were you talking about "HDTV card(s)" and "getting cheap HDTV" and "capture card makers?"

:roll:

What you're looking for is called a scan converter, and there are lots of models out there. Your PC doesn't have to be involved when a simple scan conversion is all it takes to take advantage of your (relatively) high resolution display.

I thought the original post was quite clear that I wasn't looking for something. I know very well what a scan converter is. I'm sorry if you got some sort of idea from the post that I'm looking for something that exists. The post is very clear that I already know what I want and I'm curious of technical reasons as to why nobody has made it.

A scan converter can indeed hook up a console to a monitor. I have zero desire to hook up my console to the monitor. I wish to play consoles within the context of my operating system so that it does not require hardware switches. I also wish to hook up other assorted non encoded inputs as well. Currently the only stuff that does this is very very expensive obviously.

Once again I'm not interested in trying to find something that suits my needs because I've already researched that quite a bit.

I merely am still curious if anyone has any insights as to why someone like happague hasn't produced a component/hdmi card yet.

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: Amaron

Then why on earth were you talking about "HDTV card(s)" and "getting cheap HDTV" and "capture card makers?"

:roll:

What you're looking for is called a scan converter, and there are lots of models out there. Your PC doesn't have to be involved when a simple scan conversion is all it takes to take advantage of your (relatively) high resolution display.

I thought the original post was quite clear that I wasn't looking for something. I know very well what a scan converter is. I'm sorry if you got some sort of idea from the post that I'm looking for something that exists. The post is very clear that I already know what I want and I'm curious of technical reasons as to why nobody has made it.

A scan converter can indeed hook up a console to a monitor. I have zero desire to hook up my console to the monitor. I wish to play consoles within the context of my operating system so that it does not require hardware switches. I also wish to hook up other assorted non encrypted inputs as well. Currently the only stuff that does this is very very expensive obviously.

Once again I'm not interested in trying to find something that suits my needs because I've already researched that quite a bit.

I merely am still curious if anyone has any insights as to why someone like happague hasn't produced a component/hdmi card yet.

Yes I'm aware that's what you WANT to do, here's the reality:

The amount of processing power and interconnect bandwidth necessary to achieve such a feat far exceeds the capabilities of consumer PC's. You're asking for on the fly digital sampling, and subsequent display of an analog stream that represents a tremendous amount of data. Oh and you want it all with absolutely no lag, because that would really jack up your gaming experience. Component capture cards do exist, but they are not consumer level products and they don't do HD. At best 480i capture, nowhere near HD resolutions.

Example
Another Example

HDMI would be a bit simpler proposition since the signal remains digital, but still represents a tremendous amount of bandwidth. A single 10-bit TMDS link represents 1.65 Gbps, far in excess of PCI capabilities. A PCI-e card could theoretically do it, but to what gain? Just to watch the stream? That's what multiple input displays are for.

Using video input to play consoles within the constraints of your OS wasn't a great thing in the days of s-video, and it's far worse now.

Viper GTS

 

[Amaron]

Yes I'm aware that's what you WANT to do, here's the reality:

The reality is what I was looking for in the first place. You speak as if I didn't know there was some reality stopping me from doing what I want.

Example
Another Example

I was already aware of both of these. They are also much more expensive high end products that work over the PCI Express slots.

A PCI-e card could theoretically do it, but to what gain?

To the gain of a possibly cheap HDTV? Most of the LCD HDTV hybrids are really crappy and small or big and expensive. There is a huge hole in HDTV prices and sizes that completely ignores the what the average console gamer is going to need (ie something 19inches+ for less than 700 dollars). That's not even counting the fact that technically everyone already has the HDTV sitting next to their computer for all intents and purposes.

Scan converters and transcoders have large usability problems overall that don't really make them acceptable usually.

Obviously if they can't make such a product they can't make it. The original post was afterall about whether or not they can make it though. Not a post asking for an opinion on whether or not such a thing is useful.

Im betting it's something besides bandwidth though since even a PCIe x1 could handle ~3.9 Gbps. Probably the DSP to handle so much data unencoded is expensive?

Or perhaps the bigger companies aren't tooled up for PCIe yet.

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: Amaron

Im betting it's something besides bandwidth though since even a PCIe x1 could handle ~3.9 Gbps. Probably the DSP to handle so much data unencoded is expensive?

Or perhaps the bigger companies aren't tooled up for PCIe yet.

Yes, the processing requirements to digitize an HD signal in realtime would be enormous. It's not so much the bandwidth required (as PCIe can obviously do it) but the incredible power necessary to generate that data. Hardware that can do that kind of thing (if it even exists) would come in rack mount cases, and have price tags far higher than most people's entire PC. With today's technology it simply isn't possible to put something like that on a card, regardless of the bandwidth available to that card. Also the people that would use that kind of hardware have no interest in capturing component video, all the high end gear is SDI, component is ONLY used to feed a display. There really is no market for such high resolution analog capture.

The closest thing to what you're wanting (in the consumer realm at least) probably exists in high end scalers, something like DVDO's iScan series. Even that is just a scaler though, and again it's rack mount sized and $1000+. It is, however, doing relatively high resolution digital sampling.

I don't know where you've been looking at HDTV prices but two years ago I bought a 27" widescreen directview CRT HDTV for around $450. Today there are lots of 30" tubes well under $700, like this one.

With just a little more money obviously you can get into LCD and RP sets, but there are plenty of HD capable displays under $700.

Viper GTS

 

[rbV5]

With all the new consoles coming out hyping HDTV I would think there would at least be a few models from the big capture card makers.

The new consoles have accessories that allow you to hook up to Computer monitors directly. There is simply no need to "capture" the stream from a console using your PC and then outputting to your PC display. Why impart a delay?

Big card makers won't make a product that has no user base. No consumer level PC has the bandwidth/processing power nor storage for decompressed HD streams....thats why broadcasts and PC's work with compressed transport streams.

 

[Nanobaud]

What you are describing in esscence is already happening inside the monitor. Wouldn't in this case it make more sense to enable software interaction with the PIP functions in the monitor?