HD3850 (AGP) on Socket A and Socket 939

[Pederv]

I recently bought three Sapphire HD3850 AGP video cards to upgrade three aging systems. The system configurations before and after the upgrade are:

3800X2 (939)
K8N Neo2 Platinum (NForce3 250)
2GB RAM
HD3850 (AGP) (was X800 AIW)
Antec Basiq 500W

XP2700 (462)
K7N2-Delta (was 8K3A+)
2GB RAM (was 512K)
HD3850 (AGP) (was Radeon 7000)
Coolmax CT-450

XP2800 (462)
NF7-S2G
2GB RAM
HD3850 (AGP) (was X800 AIW)
Antec Earthwatts 500W


The system that I had the least difficulty upgrading was the 3800X2 system. After uninstalling the old ATI software I was getting a message that I had to install the drivers from the 3850 CD from an Administrator account, when I was already in an account with administrative privileges. I ended up booting into the Administrator account in safe mode and installing the drivers through device manager. I?ve since updated the drivers to the Catalyst 8.10 AGP Hotfix drivers with no problems.

Here are the results from some tests that I ran:

3800X2 with X800 AIW (AGP)
3DMark2000 - 16830
3DMark2001 - 21038
3DMark03 - 11888
3DMark05 - 6021
3DMark06 - 2135

3800X2 with 3850 (AGP)
3DMark2000 - 16575
3DMark2001 - 22753
3DMark03 - 26735
3DMark05 - 10435
3DMark06 ? 6883


The socket A systems were a major pain to upgrade. Most of the discovery of the limitations of the socket A systems were done on the 2700 system. Four different power supplies were used, one was actually on the ATI approved list (which is now in my current system). Two different motherboards were tried, the other board was an 8RDA3+. The problems were not limited to the HD3850 upgrade but also showed up when the X800 AIW was used. Details on the testing process can be found here in the CPU forums. The only problem that I had was that the systems would blue screen at specific tests in 3DMark2001SE, 3DMark03, 3DMark05, and 3DMark06. The tests would always blue screen at the same point within the test.

After searching around I found two suggestions that worked:
1. Run the Catalyst 7.12 drivers with the file ati3duag.dll pulled from the Catalyst 7.7 drivers and inserted into the System32 folder.
2. Down-clock the CPU FSB.

I saw that most people were reducing the FSB from 166 MHz to 133 MHz, the resulting test results:

XP2700+ @ XP2100+ (1.733 GHz) speed with X800 AIW
3DMark2000 - 10112
3DMark2001 - 12797
3DMark03 - 9804
3DMark05 - 4912
3DMark06 - 1865

XP2700+ @ XP2100+ speed with HD3850
3DMark2000 - 10623
3DMark2001 - 14302
3DMark03 - 21065
3DMark05 - 5985
3DMark06 - 3830

Through experimentation I found that the limit that either the 2700 or 2800 CPU would run at (and not fail the 3DMark tests) was 1.9 GHz. I ended up settling on 1.872 GHz (144 X 13) on the 2700 and 1.875 GHz (150 X 12.5) on the 2800. The test results were:

XP2700+ @ 1.872 with HD3850
3DMark2000 - 11338
3DMark2001 - 15081
3DMark03 - 21848
3DMark05 - 6351
3DMark06 - 4034

EDIT: The following test shows that the 3850 is limited by the CPU.

XP2700+ @ 1.872 with HD3850 OD'd (709 core / 939 memory)
3DMark2000 - 11281
3DMark2001 - 14990
3DMark03 - 22207
3DMark05 - 6309
3DMark06 ? 4067

XP2800+ @ 1.875GHz Catalyst 8.10 with X800 AIW
3DMark2000 - 11601
3DMark2001 - 14070
3DMark03 - 10050
3DMark05 - 5301
3DMark06 - 1880

XP2800+ @ 1.875GHz Catalyst 8.10 with HD3850
3DMark2000 - 11661
3DMark2001 - 15870
3DMark03 - 22833
3DMark05 - 6776
3DMark06 ? 4296


Test results for using modified Catalyst 7.12 drivers are as follows:

XP2800+ @ default (2.083GHz) modified Catalyst 7.12 with X800 AIW
3DMark2000 - 12308
3DMark2001 - 13890
3DMark03 - 5502
3DMark05 - 4451
3DMark06 - 1515

XP2800+ @ default (2.083GHz) modified Catalyst 7.12 with HD3850
3DMark2000 - 12569
3DMark2001 - 17447
3DMark03 - 21787
3DMark05 - 7373
3DMark06 - 4673


Since the goal of the socket A systems was stability first, then speed ? I settled on the down-clocked CPU FSB option. This way the system could take updated drivers which incorporated fixes. The socket A systems are going to nephews, one of those being over 1200 miles away.

I took one of the X800 AIW cards and dropped it into another 2700 system that I have. The 2700 system is on an 8K3A+ system and is prime stable at default speeds. This system has the same symptoms as the nforce2 based systems.


EDIT: Add AGP to the title
EDIT: Fixed link
EDIT: During my research I've found mostly AMD socket A systems to have problems. If any P4 systems had problems they were usually based on Nvidia or VIA chipsets.

 

[AzN]

I wouldn't have upgraded those socket A systems. Those systems would bottleneck too much to play anything modern anyways. x800 would have been plenty. Waste of money imo.

 

[Pederv]

Originally posted by: Azn
I wouldn't have upgraded those socket A systems. Those systems would bottleneck too much to play anything modern anyways. x800 would have been plenty. Waste of money imo.

That's OK.

I didn't post the information in order to get anybody's approval.

I put the information up for those with AGP systems considering the options available.

 

[adlep]

:frown:

Originally posted by: Azn
I wouldn't have upgraded those socket A systems. Those systems would bottleneck too much to play anything modern anyways. x800 would have been plenty. Waste of money imo.

:disgust: ....OK. Great contribution to the forums buddy. If you have nothing constructive to say, don't post. There are a lot of people who will appreciate the OP's work.

Pederv

Don't mind stupid comments. This is a very useful research that you have done. It will help a lot of people to make an educated decision in regards to upgrading their AGP systems.
Great work!

:thumbsup:

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: Pederv

Originally posted by: Azn
I wouldn't have upgraded those socket A systems. Those systems would bottleneck too much to play anything modern anyways. x800 would have been plenty. Waste of money imo.

That's OK.

I didn't post the information in order to get anybody's approval.

I put the information up for those with AGP systems considering the options available.

I never said you needed anyone's approval. I'm putting my opinion out there for those people who would want to upgrade their dead socket systems.

....OK. Great contribution to the forums buddy. If you have nothing constructive to say, don't post. There are a lot of people who will appreciate the OP's work.

Actually it is well thought out contribution. You put a $100 video card on a $50 system you get bad results. modern games require dual core cpu minimum. His 939 system benefited while those socket A systems barely does anything. If you are going to play modern games socket A system will not able to play regardless if he upgraded to a 3850. If he was going to play older games x800 would have been plenty.

 

[adlep]

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: Pederv

Originally posted by: Azn
I wouldn't have upgraded those socket A systems. Those systems would bottleneck too much to play anything modern anyways. x800 would have been plenty. Waste of money imo.

That's OK.

I didn't post the information in order to get anybody's approval.

I put the information up for those with AGP systems considering the options available.

I never said you needed anyone's approval. I'm putting my opinion out there for those people who would want to upgrade their dead socket systems.

I am not really sure what is your problem, but clearly this thread is not for you.
The fact is that in many cases upgrading an AGP based system will work just fine for many people -> especially those with s939 and X2 based cpus.
Quit embarrassing yourself and leave.

Actually it is well thought out contribution. You put a $100 video card on a $50 system you get bad results. modern games require dual core cpu minimum. His 939 system benefited while those socket A systems barely does anything. If you are going to play modern games socket A system will not able to play regardless if he upgraded to a 3850. If he was going to play older games x800 would have been plenty.

OP is not giving an advice to anybody one way or the other. He is just positing pure numbers. People can draw conclusions on their own.

Let me give you an example of what you should say:


"Wow great work OP, it looks like you have spent a lot of time benching these olders systems for us.
It looks like your s939 clearly benefited from the upgrade while the socket A systems have problems utilizing the new HD3850 card"

Do you see a difference?
It is called a common courtesy...

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: adlep

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: Pederv

Originally posted by: Azn
I wouldn't have upgraded those socket A systems. Those systems would bottleneck too much to play anything modern anyways. x800 would have been plenty. Waste of money imo.

That's OK.

I didn't post the information in order to get anybody's approval.

I put the information up for those with AGP systems considering the options available.

I never said you needed anyone's approval. I'm putting my opinion out there for those people who would want to upgrade their dead socket systems.

I am not really sure what is your problem, but clearly this thread is not for you.
The fact is that in many cases upgrading an AGP based system will work just fine for many people -> especially those with s939 and X2 based cpus.
Quit embarrassing yourself and leave.

Looks like you are the only one with a problem. Did I say anything about the x2 AGP system? Geez some people love playing the white knight don't they. :disgust:

This is a public forum. If you don't like. You leave.

 

[adlep]

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: adlep

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: Pederv

Originally posted by: Azn
I wouldn't have upgraded those socket A systems. Those systems would bottleneck too much to play anything modern anyways. x800 would have been plenty. Waste of money imo.

That's OK.

I didn't post the information in order to get anybody's approval.

I put the information up for those with AGP systems considering the options available.

I never said you needed anyone's approval. I'm putting my opinion out there for those people who would want to upgrade their dead socket systems.

I am not really sure what is your problem, but clearly this thread is not for you.
The fact is that in many cases upgrading an AGP based system will work just fine for many people -> especially those with s939 and X2 based cpus.
Quit embarrassing yourself and leave.

Looks like you are the only one with a problem. Did I say anything about the x2 AGP system? Geez some people love playing the white knight don't they. :disgust:

This is a public forum. If you don't like. You leave.

Let me give you an example of what you should say:

Wow great work OP, it looks like you have spent a lot of time benching these older systems for us. It looks like your s939 PC clearly benefited from the upgrade while the socket A systems have problems utilizing the new HD3850 card

Do you see a difference?
It is called a common courtesy for somebody's hard work.
Also, I rest my case. I am not really good at arguing with ppl on forums...

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: adlep

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: adlep

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: Pederv

Originally posted by: Azn
I wouldn't have upgraded those socket A systems. Those systems would bottleneck too much to play anything modern anyways. x800 would have been plenty. Waste of money imo.

That's OK.

I didn't post the information in order to get anybody's approval.

I put the information up for those with AGP systems considering the options available.

I never said you needed anyone's approval. I'm putting my opinion out there for those people who would want to upgrade their dead socket systems.

I am not really sure what is your problem, but clearly this thread is not for you.
The fact is that in many cases upgrading an AGP based system will work just fine for many people -> especially those with s939 and X2 based cpus.
Quit embarrassing yourself and leave.

Looks like you are the only one with a problem. Did I say anything about the x2 AGP system? Geez some people love playing the white knight don't they. :disgust:

This is a public forum. If you don't like. You leave.

Let me give you an example of what you should say:

Wow great work OP, it looks like you have spent a lot of time benching these older systems for us. It looks like your s939 PC clearly benefited from the upgrade while the socket A systems have problems utilizing the new HD3850 card

Do you see a difference?
It is called a common courtesy...
Also, I rest my case. I am not really good at arguing with ppl on forums...

dude stfu.

I've just posted my opinion on the matter. Don't tell me how I should post either. You sound like a communist.

I was going to warn you about thread crapping, but after reviewing your moderator notes, this is an ongoing problem. Take a week off to learn to stop. If you dont, your next vacation will be two weeks.
bsobel

 

[Pulsar]

To the original poster: Thank you VERY much.

I have a 2.4 ghz computer with a 9700pro that so far has been able to run most every game well enough (for me). This shows that a new card might benefit my framerate speeds about 30-40% based on comparisons to the 7000 you used.

That plus the difficulties you had have convinced me that when I do upgrade, it's worth getting a new computer.

Thank you again!

 

[adlep]

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: adlep

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: adlep

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: Pederv

Originally posted by: Azn
I wouldn't have upgraded those socket A systems. Those systems would bottleneck too much to play anything modern anyways. x800 would have been plenty. Waste of money imo.

That's OK.

I didn't post the information in order to get anybody's approval.

I put the information up for those with AGP systems considering the options available.

I never said you needed anyone's approval. I'm putting my opinion out there for those people who would want to upgrade their dead socket systems.

I am not really sure what is your problem, but clearly this thread is not for you.
The fact is that in many cases upgrading an AGP based system will work just fine for many people -> especially those with s939 and X2 based cpus.
Quit embarrassing yourself and leave.

Looks like you are the only one with a problem. Did I say anything about the x2 AGP system? Geez some people love playing the white knight don't they. :disgust:

This is a public forum. If you don't like. You leave.

Let me give you an example of what you should say:

Wow great work OP, it looks like you have spent a lot of time benching these older systems for us. It looks like your s939 PC clearly benefited from the upgrade while the socket A systems have problems utilizing the new HD3850 card

Do you see a difference?
It is called a common courtesy...
Also, I rest my case. I am not really good at arguing with ppl on forums...

dude stfu.

I've just posted my opinion on the matter. Don't tell me how I should post either. You sound like a communist.

OK...
:disgust:
You have just proved my point...

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: adlep

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: adlep

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: adlep

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: Pederv

Originally posted by: Azn
I wouldn't have upgraded those socket A systems. Those systems would bottleneck too much to play anything modern anyways. x800 would have been plenty. Waste of money imo.

That's OK.

I didn't post the information in order to get anybody's approval.

I put the information up for those with AGP systems considering the options available.

I never said you needed anyone's approval. I'm putting my opinion out there for those people who would want to upgrade their dead socket systems.

I am not really sure what is your problem, but clearly this thread is not for you.
The fact is that in many cases upgrading an AGP based system will work just fine for many people -> especially those with s939 and X2 based cpus.
Quit embarrassing yourself and leave.

Looks like you are the only one with a problem. Did I say anything about the x2 AGP system? Geez some people love playing the white knight don't they. :disgust:

This is a public forum. If you don't like. You leave.

Let me give you an example of what you should say:

Wow great work OP, it looks like you have spent a lot of time benching these older systems for us. It looks like your s939 PC clearly benefited from the upgrade while the socket A systems have problems utilizing the new HD3850 card

Do you see a difference?
It is called a common courtesy...
Also, I rest my case. I am not really good at arguing with ppl on forums...

dude stfu. Don't tell me how I should post. I've just posted my opinion on upgrading socket A systems.

OK...
:disgust:
You have just proved my point...

You haven't proved anything besides that you act like a communist and love trying to tell people how to be. I don't see anything rude with my post in the first place. I gave an opinion. If you can't take opinions and take it for what it is then you should stop posting immediately.

 

[adlep]

You haven't proved anything besides that you act like a communist and love trying to tell people how to be. I don't see anything rude with my post in the first place. I gave an opinion. If you can't take opinions and take it for what it is then you should stop posting immediately.

A communist...
That is the first one...lol
Just let it go...
IMO, a lot of other ppl will appreciate OP's work.

 

[Pederv]

Originally posted by: Pulsar
To the original poster: Thank you VERY much.

I have a 2.4 ghz computer with a 9700pro that so far has been able to run most every game well enough (for me). This shows that a new card might benefit my framerate speeds about 30-40% based on comparisons to the 7000 you used.

That plus the difficulties you had have convinced me that when I do upgrade, it's worth getting a new computer.

Thank you again!

Pulsar, I didn't find anybody with an older P4 system having issues, it was pretty much just people with socket A systems.

 

[Insomniator]

I don't see what is wrong with AZN's statement. 3Dmark doesn't mean crap; I'm not positive but I would bet he is right about a 3850 being pointless for those systems.

People can draw conclusions on their own yes, but knowing that a 3850 over an x800 on an xp2800 is not going to help any gaming at all is an important piece of information for that conclusion. It wouldn't how up in 3dmark however.

What is the point of a forum if we can't add our thoughts? What if he decided to post a Geforce 2 vs a Geforce 3? Just encourage him and say great job for his hard work?

 

[IlllI]

i actually agree with Azn too. maybe he should not have said it that way, but seems like there comes a point where its not worth the money nor time or effort to upgrade something thats so old. especially when there would be little to no gain doing so.

 

[WT]

I actually enjoy reading these threads with what some consider outdated hardware paired up with newer cards. Other than AZN's personal tirade, it was worth the read.

Its gotten to the point where we treat people who won't follow the prescribed upgrade routine as pariahs around here and mock them for spending money on whatever they choose to buy. If you don't care to comment with something positive, then ignore the thread and move on.

I am soon to the point where all of my AGP stuff is retired, but I still don't mind reading about what others are doing to keep their rigs going. After getting rid of my AGP cards, I now find that I need them again to upgrade or repair customer PCs with failing video cards. You may personally be done using them, but if you fix/repair PCs for a living, you'd better have some handy !!

 

[Xcobra]

ANyways, back to topic. This really helps for me. at least the X2 cpu portion. i had an X800XL with a 3200 Venice and I am considering upgrading to the X2, now that I have the HD3850. Clearly it makes a difference and we appreciate your efforts.

 

[Denithor]

Originally posted by: Pulsar
I have a 2.4 ghz computer with a 9700pro that so far has been able to run most every game well enough (for me). This shows that a new card might benefit my framerate speeds about 30-40% based on comparisons to the 7000 you used.

That plus the difficulties you had have convinced me that when I do upgrade, it's worth getting a new computer.

Originally posted by: clandren
i actually agree with Azn too. maybe he should not have said it that way, but seems like there comes a point where its not worth the money nor time or effort to upgrade something thats so old. especially when there would be little to no gain doing so.

I fall somewhere between these two. It's cool to see an old system upgraded, for some kid who cannot afford a gaming system those would make a nice gift. But then again, for just a little more than was spent on the AGP video cards you could have gotten a cheap X2 mobo/cpu/DDR2 and like a 9600GSO and blown away the performance of the upgraded boxes in any modern game.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

A note: While an upgrading to an HD3850 from an X800 does not make sense from a performance standpoint, there are many newer games available which the X800 has the "power" to play (even on lower settings on an Athlon XP) but it can't because it does not support DX 9.0c.

Perdev: Thanks for all of these results. It looks like an HD3850, paired with a faster Athlon XP, does provide a good improvement in newer games than an X800, but in older games there seems to be no improvement at all. I think an HD3650 wold probably be a better (more economical) solution for an upgrade over an X800.

 

[WT]

Xcobra, you missed the deal at TigerDirect last month for the AMD X2 3800+ for $50 ! I bought one after selling my Opteron 165 the month before, and my plans are to retire my wife's single core 3400+/AGP rig with the 3800+ X2/PCIe board I have.
That's not a bad setup for the game I play, so for less than $100 I was able to do that upgrade. Now, I should realize that gaming on my wife's PC is strictly verboten, but alas, I wanted to upgrade the rig anyhow.

 

[Pederv]

Originally posted by: Denithor
I fall somewhere between these two. It's cool to see an old system upgraded, for some kid who cannot afford a gaming system those would make a nice gift. But then again, for just a little more than was spent on the AGP video cards you could have gotten a cheap X2 mobo/cpu/DDR2 and like a 9600GSO and blown away the performance of the upgraded boxes in any modern game.

Actually, Denithor, the system you describe would have cost almost as much as what I paid for two of the cards, if I was to buy the parts manufactured by names that I trust.

 

[Pederv]

Originally posted by: cusideabelincoln
A note: While an upgrading to an HD3850 from an X800 does not make sense from a performance standpoint, there are many newer games available which the X800 has the "power" to play (even on lower settings on an Athlon XP) but it can't because it does not support DX 9.0c.

Perdev: Thanks for all of these results. It looks like an HD3850, paired with a faster Athlon XP, does provide a good improvement in newer games than an X800, but in older games there seems to be no improvement at all. I think an HD3650 wold probably be a better (more economical) solution for an upgrade over an X800.

You're right cusideabelincoln, the HD3650 would be the more economical solution to an AGP upgrade. I used the HD3850 because I wanted to push these systems as far as they could go. I knew the 3850 would put the bottleneck at the CPU and I go to prove this by overclocking the 3850.

I used the X800 AIW cards as a baseline because they were the only other AGP card that could run all of the 3DMark tests. The Radeon 7000 could only run 3DMark2000, the Radeon 8500 could run both 3DMark2000 and most of 3DMark2001SE but coudn't run test 16 because it requires DX9.

 

[vj8usa]

Originally posted by: Pederv

Originally posted by: Denithor
I fall somewhere between these two. It's cool to see an old system upgraded, for some kid who cannot afford a gaming system those would make a nice gift. But then again, for just a little more than was spent on the AGP video cards you could have gotten a cheap X2 mobo/cpu/DDR2 and like a 9600GSO and blown away the performance of the upgraded boxes in any modern game.

Actually, Denithor, the system you describe would have cost almost as much as what I paid for two of the cards, if I was to buy the parts manufactured by names that I trust.

Just out of curiosity, what'd you pay for the 2 cards? Going by Newegg prices, it'd cost about $130-150 for CPU+RAM+mobo+GPU if you went the AM2/PCIe route that Denithor suggested.

 

[Pederv]

Originally posted by: vj8usa

Originally posted by: Pederv

Originally posted by: Denithor
I fall somewhere between these two. It's cool to see an old system upgraded, for some kid who cannot afford a gaming system those would make a nice gift. But then again, for just a little more than was spent on the AGP video cards you could have gotten a cheap X2 mobo/cpu/DDR2 and like a 9600GSO and blown away the performance of the upgraded boxes in any modern game.

Actually, Denithor, the system you describe would have cost almost as much as what I paid for two of the cards, if I was to buy the parts manufactured by names that I trust.

Just out of curiosity, what'd you pay for the 2 cards? Going by Newegg prices, it'd cost about $130-150 for CPU+RAM+mobo+GPU if you went the AM2/PCIe route that Denithor suggested.

I come up with:
3800X2 - $36
Asus M3A78-CM - $70
2GB Kingston - $42
Asus EN9600GSO - $80

Total - $228

Using manufacturers that I would trust.

Two 3850's cost - $260