Have you ever really thought about the story of Jesus? Is it logical?

[Arkitech]

First off this is not a post about religion hating.

Just a little background before I start: In June of this year I basically became disillusioned with the religion and the bible. However my wife is still a very devout christian and on occasions we'll get into heated discussions about certain aspects of religion and God. Yesterday we got into a debate about Jesus and his sacrifice. Basically my view is that is'nt it odd that God would need to send his beloved first born of all creation down to the Earth to be ridiculed, tortured and murdered. The bible claims that Jesus died for our sins so that we can be forgiven. But my question is why can't God who is supposedly all powerful simply forgive us of our sins, why does yet another innocent life have to be forfeit. Furthermore the bible calls Jesus death a ransom sacrifice, if thats the case who is this ransom being paid to? Is it God or Satan? So you wonder why would God pay a ransom to himself and even worse why would God pay a ransom to Satan?

Something is really wrong here

 

[iamme]

Originally posted by: Arkitech
......Basically my view is that is'nt it odd that God would need to send his beloved first born of all creation down to the Earth to be ridiculed, tortured and murdered. The bible claims that Jesus died for our sins so that we can be forgiven.....

I think the point is that God loved us so much that He would do something like that.

 

[Vette73]

Oh gezze, not another Budda, God, alla, or what ever stupid diety you give money and what ever else to thread

There are NO DIETIES!!! Get a life, and stop letting some stupid racist, sexist, etc.. book run your life

 

[Electric Amish]

Immaculate conception is very logical.....

amish

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: iamme

Originally posted by: Arkitech
......Basically my view is that is'nt it odd that God would need to send his beloved first born of all creation down to the Earth to be ridiculed, tortured and murdered. The bible claims that Jesus died for our sins so that we can be forgiven.....

I think the point is that God loved us so much that He would do something like that.

Bingo.

ZV

 

[notfred]

Even if Jesus was dead and ressurected, I fail to see the huge sacrifice he made. The claim is that Jesus sacrificed his life so that we wouldn't have to.

However, Jesus did not sacrifice his life. He was alive again after 3 days. He only sacrified 3 days. What the hell kind of sacrifice is three days?

Anyway, yes, I agree with you. If God was the always loving and caring being that Christians claim him to be, he'd forgive people regardless of whether or not they beleive Jesus died for them.

 

[Stealth1024]

yes he paid for our sins, but the point is that the he conquered death so that whomever shall believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life (ie you're going to heaven)

 

[csiro]

Yea Jesus died for us. But so did the soldiers that fought for our country.

 

[Jzero]

However, Jesus did not sacrifice his life. He was alive again after 3 days. He only sacrified 3 days. What the hell kind of sacrifice is three days?

LMAO
Never thought of it like that And for a guy who is eternal, 3 days is really nothing

The short answer is simply that God, being the same God for Christians and Jews, prior to Jesus and the New Testament, was an angry and vengeful deity and he required that all Jews make a sacrifice at the temple in Jerusalem in order to make atonement.

When the temple was destroyed, the Jews no longer had a place to make their sacrifice, but God still requires a blood sacrifice to be made.

In theory, Jesus's blood was spilled as a representative sacrifice for all people.


Then again, religion itself isn't really that logical.

 

[isildur]

I have an idea - rather than look to authorative sources for the answers to complex questions regarding complex subject matters, I'll go a public forum and ask the rest of the numbskulls what they think!

...and when I have a problem with the way my car works, I'll go to BetterHomesandgardens.com and post my question/rant in the "How to make the perfect soufle" forum!


...speaking of illogical...

 

[WinkOsmosis]

I don't think it matters that Jesus died... people who sinned before him could repent and go to heaven, and same after. So what's the difference? Did God change somehow?

 

[CurtCold]

I think the point was that Jesus was the perfect sacrafice. That's what was required for christians, Jews/Gentiles to all have a chance to get to heaven.

Then again, I've forbidden myself to the typical religious qualms of the day, citing that it's not who's right, just that you love God.

 

[hdeck]

Originally posted by: Jellomancer
I don't think it matters that Jesus died... people who sinned before him could repent and go to heaven, and same after. So what's the difference? Did God change somehow?

before Jesus, people had to sacfrafice things likes sheep, etc. (things they used God's land to produce) but afterwards, all you had to do was believe that Jesus died for your sins.

 

[yowolabi]

Originally posted by: isildur
I have an idea - rather than look to authorative sources for the answers to complex questions regarding complex subject matters, I'll go a public forum and ask the rest of the numbskulls what they think!

...and when I have a problem with the way my car works, I'll go to BetterHomesandgardens.com and post my question/rant in the "How to make the perfect soufle" forum!


...speaking of illogical...

I doubt he'll find satisfaction here either, but he won't find it anywhere else either. How can there be an authoratative source on the questions of religion? We all live in this world, and have access to the same information. If you question the validity of a religion at all, going to a priest of that religion will only give you someone more well versed on that religous line. Multiple perspectives is the best shot he has. A priest may believe more, but he doesn't know more.

 

[ScoobMaster]

Hey Arkitech I can relate!!!!!!!!

I have given up my "faith" recently too and have settled on "agnostic". Basically I have not seen/felt/experienced anything that convinces me of an omniscient creator.

Yet my loving wife (that I love dearly) is still a devout Christian. This does cause some interesting conversations (especially with her very fundamentalist parents),

In my experience with friends I made while a "believer" (yes for a while I bought into it and really believed every aspect) I have found that usually logic and religious beliefs are opposite ends of the spectrum.


Arkitech, you may enjoy some of the discussions at the JREF forums here

 

[jjones]

Well if Jesus died for our sins, I could use a few more Jesus's here. I've got a lot of debt in the sin department.

 

[Zedtom]

Arkitech, many of us have questioned our blind faith in the teachings of Christianity. One must decide for him or herself just what you want to believe. There are many couples who have differing views on their beliefs, yet they manage to stay together.

I've found comfort in the book, "Asimov's Guide to the Bible" by Isaac Asimov. He was known primarily as a science fiction writer, but this work provides a historical context to the writings in the Bible. Asimov was branded a heretic and athiest after this work was published.

This being the Christmas season, what would be a better time to sit down and ponder the Historical Jesus as compared to the distorted representation presented by organized religion.

 

[fonzinator]

Originally posted by: Arkitech
But my question is why can't God who is supposedly all powerful simply forgive us of our sins, why does yet another innocent life have to be forfeit. Furthermore the bible calls Jesus death a ransom sacrifice, if thats the case who is this ransom being paid to? Is it God or Satan? So you wonder why would God pay a ransom to himself and even worse why would God pay a ransom to Satan?

To follow Jzero's reply...The Jews were bound under the old covenant with God. This required them to make a blood sacrifice for sins to be forgiven. However, Hebrews 8:9 explains why God wanted to make a new covenant with his people "...because they did not remain faithful to my covenant (old covenant), and I turned away from them, declares the Lord." The old covenant required the sacrifice of the "most perfect" animal of one's flock (to give your best to the Lord). The new covenant God made with his people was the epitomie of this "perfect" sacrifice...the blood of his perfect son, Jesus. Because Jesus was sinless, there could never be a more perfect sacrifice for our sins, thus, this was the ultimate and final sacrifice. Jesus' perfect blood is completely necessary for us to become right with God and still remains for us to take! Hebrews 9:15 illustrates this perfectly! "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant." Read the whole book of Hebrews for the best explination of the transition from God's old covenant to God's new covenant.

To answer your question about to whom this ransom was paid, it was not paid to Satan but to God himself. I think my previous paragraph explains why.

 

[Electric Amish]

If Jesus was such a good guy, why isn't his picture on any of our money???

amish

 

[BillGates]

Originally posted by: hdeck

Originally posted by: Jellomancer
I don't think it matters that Jesus died... people who sinned before him could repent and go to heaven, and same after. So what's the difference? Did God change somehow?

before Jesus, people had to sacfrafice things likes sheep, etc. (things they used God's land to produce) but afterwards, all you had to do was believe that Jesus died for your sins.

Dude, that's ridiculous!! I'm betting that people would file a discrimination lawsuit against God if they could for age discrimination, heh.

Immaculate conception is interesting as well - somehow a person only had half of his DNA lived with no problems.

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: iamme

Originally posted by: Arkitech
......Basically my view is that is'nt it odd that God would need to send his beloved first born of all creation down to the Earth to be ridiculed, tortured and murdered. The bible claims that Jesus died for our sins so that we can be forgiven.....

I think the point is that God loved us so much that He would do something like that.

Bingo.

ZV

This is what I have problems with, it seems to me that if God really loves us that much then Satan would never have gotten the chance to wreak havoc in the first place. I mean think about it, in the Garden of Eden Satan seduced Adam and Eve to committ the first sin. Not long after Adam and Eve died. Should'nt God if he loved mankind so much put an end to Satan at that point? According to the bible Satan was allowed to exist and he then managed to convince 1/3rd off all angels to follow him. So now instead of 1 rogue angel misleading and playing tricks on mankind you now have 1000's or possibly millions of angels causing damage. Some years later God sends Jesus to die for our sins but yet Satan and his buddies are still up to their old tricks. Am I the only one who thinks something is wrong with that picture?

 

[WinkOsmosis]

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: iamme

Originally posted by: Arkitech
......Basically my view is that is'nt it odd that God would need to send his beloved first born of all creation down to the Earth to be ridiculed, tortured and murdered. The bible claims that Jesus died for our sins so that we can be forgiven.....

I think the point is that God loved us so much that He would do something like that.

Bingo.

ZV

This is what I have problems with, it seems to me that if God really loves us that much then Satan would never have gotten the chance to wreak havoc in the first place. I mean think about it, in the Garden of Eden Satan seduced Adam and Eve to committ the first sin. Not long after Adam and Eve died. Should'nt God if he loved mankind so much put an end to Satan at that point? According to the bible Satan was allowed to exist and he then managed to convince 1/3rd off all angels to follow him. So now instead of 1 rogue angel misleading and playing tricks on mankind you now have 1000's or possibly millions of angels causing damage. Some years later God sends Jesus to die for our sins but yet Satan and his buddies are still up to their old tricks. Am I the only one who thinks something is wrong with that picture?

It's creation mythology. It's not interesting if Zeus just kills Typhon with a blow from his axe of smoting or whatever.

 

[Electric Amish]

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: iamme

Originally posted by: Arkitech
......Basically my view is that is'nt it odd that God would need to send his beloved first born of all creation down to the Earth to be ridiculed, tortured and murdered. The bible claims that Jesus died for our sins so that we can be forgiven.....

I think the point is that God loved us so much that He would do something like that.

Bingo.

ZV

This is what I have problems with, it seems to me that if God really loves us that much then Satan would never have gotten the chance to wreak havoc in the first place. I mean think about it, in the Garden of Eden Satan seduced Adam and Eve to committ the first sin. Not long after Adam and Eve died. Should'nt God if he loved mankind so much put an end to Satan at that point? According to the bible Satan was allowed to exist and he then managed to convince 1/3rd off all angels to follow him. So now instead of 1 rogue angel misleading and playing tricks on mankind you now have 1000's or possibly millions of angels causing damage. Some years later God sends Jesus to die for our sins but yet Satan and his buddies are still up to their old tricks. Am I the only one who thinks something is wrong with that picture?

Without evil, there is not good.

amish

 

[Dedpuhl]

If one introduces logic to religion, then one will want to bash his/her skull in trying to make sense of it.

I come from the school of thought that believes Jesus never existed...

 

[woodie1]

Originally posted by: Electric Amish
If Jesus was such a good guy, why isn't his picture on any of our money???

amish

Same reason clinton isn't either.