Have liberals lost the ability to debate and defend their positions?

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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Seems like even now, after the election, this question keeps on making me wonder. Have liberals and the left lost the ability to articulate, debate, and defend their positions? Do they even realize that they are in a debate? I say this because there seems to be an overarching tendency in both the way they frame and articulate their arguments (such as they are). It seems they almost feel their position is a revealed wisdom. That is, any educated person, once presented with their position, could not help but agree with their point of view; they don't think it's really necessary to actually take the positions of the right seriously.

Before, during, and after the election we've seen the same thing. During the election there wasn't much of an effort made to actually build and present a compeling and rational case for their own position. Rather they seemed to feel it was enough to reveal Bush or his policies as "stupid" and that once it was pointed out, the voters could not help agree with them. After all, what educated and non-bigoted person could be against, say, gay marriage? Or abortion? They didn't seem to think that any position other than their own could be considered a reasonable alternative to the voters, so they didn't bother reinforcing their position.

Even now, many seem to feel content to blame the voters for their stupidity, say it's simply the "redneck" voters that didn't understand the issues which decided the election; in short anything but looking at their own positions and how they presented them. It will be that they didn't "get their message out," or that the voters didn't understand their positions, or that the red states are simply hicks that "don't get it."
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
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NO THEY HAVEN'T AS LONG AS THEY CAN SHOUT & CLAIM VOTER FRAUD...

YOU'RE ALL BUTTHEADS
















Oh crap, I keep forgetting who I voted for, my bad...

Denial
Anger <---this was an angry post...
Bargaining
Acceptance
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
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We're still plenty angry. It's Bush we're talking about. There's something special about him, the world outside america knows it, and some americans know it. And it's not that he's excedingly stupid, but it might relate to that.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
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My question is how can conservatives *still* defend the President's position on Iraq after all our pre-war motives have been thrown out the window.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
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Originally posted by: jpeyton
My question is how can conservatives *still* defend the President's position on Iraq after all our pre-war motives have been thrown out the window.
Because he is a Christian?
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
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Originally posted by: jpeyton
My question is how can conservatives *still* defend the President's position on Iraq after all our pre-war motives have been thrown out the window.


Who freaking cares anymore?

I mean we're there, the public/world knows we fvcked up, let's fix what we broke...
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
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Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Originally posted by: jpeyton
My question is how can conservatives *still* defend the President's position on Iraq after all our pre-war motives have been thrown out the window.


Who freaking cares anymore?

I mean we're there, the public/world knows we fvcked up, let's fix what we broke...

Yes, *who cares* about multi-billion dollar international conflicts. Just a teensy weensy mistake, nothing a quick turn of the wrench won't fix.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
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Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Originally posted by: jpeyton
My question is how can conservatives *still* defend the President's position on Iraq after all our pre-war motives have been thrown out the window.


Who freaking cares anymore?

I mean we're there, the public/world knows we fvcked up, let's fix what we broke...

Yes, *who cares* about multi-billion dollar international conflicts. Just a teensy weensy mistake, nothing a quick turn of the wrench won't fix.


Ok, you win, we were horribly horribly wrong, what do you want to do about it?
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
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Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Originally posted by: jpeyton
My question is how can conservatives *still* defend the President's position on Iraq after all our pre-war motives have been thrown out the window.


Who freaking cares anymore?

I mean we're there, the public/world knows we fvcked up, let's fix what we broke...

Yes, *who cares* about multi-billion dollar international conflicts. Just a teensy weensy mistake, nothing a quick turn of the wrench won't fix.


Ok, you win, we were horribly horribly wrong, what do you want to do about it?

What bdude said.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
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Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Originally posted by: jpeyton
My question is how can conservatives *still* defend the President's position on Iraq after all our pre-war motives have been thrown out the window.


Who freaking cares anymore?

I mean we're there, the public/world knows we fvcked up, let's fix what we broke...

So, in your world someone who makes as huge a mistake as Bush made in Iraq is OK to be elected with no questions asked? And you think no one cares? And all that's left to do is fix what we broke???

Can you see how insane that statement is? This in a thread that questions liberals' ability to debate and defend their positions.

In a country I used to live in the people wouldn't stand for what Bush has done, no less elect him for four more years of the same.

 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
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Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Originally posted by: jpeyton
My question is how can conservatives *still* defend the President's position on Iraq after all our pre-war motives have been thrown out the window.


Who freaking cares anymore?

I mean we're there, the public/world knows we fvcked up, let's fix what we broke...

So, in your world someone who makes as huge a mistake as Bush made in Iraq is OK to be elected with no questions asked? And you think no one cares? And all that's left to do is fix what we broke???

Can you see how insane that statement is? This in a thread that questions liberals' ability to debate and defend their positions.

In a country I used to live in the people wouldn't stand for what Bush has done, no less elect him for four more years of the same.

No, what you're missing is that we don't have the option of going back &amp; undoing anything..

Next...
 

Tylanner

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2004
5,481
2
81
Originally posted by: jpeyton

I say, whatever gets Bush out of office :thumbsup:

Pretty much sums up his and his "buddies" credibilty.

But you have no hope of achieving your goal now, so why keep pedaling?



Some liberals here keep trying to drop "bombs", making sharp comments, with little fact.

Like:

"More like the Bush administration is encouraging global warming."




This one may have to go in my sig...

"Terrorism thrives in Iraq now...it never did before." Conjur

Look at the definition of terrorism. LINK

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Iraq was a dictatorship. And constantly used terrorism to force millions of people to submit to Saddams rule.


 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,250
196
106
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Originally posted by: jpeyton
My question is how can conservatives *still* defend the President's position on Iraq after all our pre-war motives have been thrown out the window.


Who freaking cares anymore?

I mean we're there, the public/world knows we fvcked up, let's fix what we broke...

Yes, *who cares* about multi-billion dollar international conflicts. Just a teensy weensy mistake, nothing a quick turn of the wrench won't fix.


Ok, you win, we were horribly horribly wrong, what do you want to do about it?


War crimes trials for those responsible would be a good start ...

 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Originally posted by: Tabb
Originally posted by: Tiles2Tech
Originally posted by: bdude
New leadership would've been a good start...

New leadership, but without a freakin' plan??

Whats Bush's plan exactly?

As it stands, he has no plan for withdrawal. That makes sense, because he wants to keep an established military presence in Iraq indefinitely. The Bush plan for occupation is the same policy he has had for the last year.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Originally posted by: jpeyton
My question is how can conservatives *still* defend the President's position on Iraq after all our pre-war motives have been thrown out the window.


Who freaking cares anymore?

I mean we're there, the public/world knows we fvcked up, let's fix what we broke...

Yes, *who cares* about multi-billion dollar international conflicts. Just a teensy weensy mistake, nothing a quick turn of the wrench won't fix.


Ok, you win, we were horribly horribly wrong, what do you want to do about it?


War crimes trials for those responsible would be a good start ...


Not an option, next...
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
My question is how can conservatives *still* defend the President's position on Iraq after all our pre-war motives have been thrown out the window.
Exactly!

The *only* justification given for the war was the alleged fact that Saddam had stockpiles of WMDs and they knew where those WMDs were. That has proven to be 100% false, intelligence cooked up by the PNAC neocons in the Pentagon's OSP.

Once the war began, Bush did not rescind any tax cuts. Instead, he drove us further into debt and down the path that eventually forced the Soviets out of Afghanistan (a money pit).

Also, proposing bigoted amendments to the U.S. Constitution as a way to pander to the religious right has further divided our nation.

Bush has also worked hard at dismantling years and years of environmental gains to benefit of his corporate interests (DeLay must have been thrilled with this.)

Bush has run a government veiled in secrecy which has been bemoaned by even the White House press corps and civil libertarians across the nation.



What's their to defend in a Bush administration? Nothing but pure arrogance and incompetence.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
0
0
Originally posted by: Tiles2Tech
Originally posted by: bdude
New leadership would've been a good start...

New leadership, but without a freakin' plan??

I hate to sound angry and flame and stuff. But if you're saying that Kerry didn't have a plan, i have to tell you to pull your head out of your ass...
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
Originally posted by: Forsythe
Originally posted by: Tiles2Tech
Originally posted by: bdude
New leadership would've been a good start...

New leadership, but without a freakin' plan??

I hate to sound angry and flame and stuff. But if you're saying that Kerry didn't have a plan, i have to tell you to pull your head out of your ass...


Not an option troll...

Next
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
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Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: jpeyton
My question is how can conservatives *still* defend the President's position on Iraq after all our pre-war motives have been thrown out the window.
Exactly!

The *only* justification given for the war was the alleged fact that Saddam had stockpiles of WMDs and they knew where those WMDs were. That has proven to be 100% false, intelligence cooked up by the PNAC neocons in the Pentagon's OSP.

Once the war began, Bush did not rescind any tax cuts. Instead, he drove us further into debt and down the path that eventually forced the Soviets out of Afghanistan (a money pit).

Also, proposing bigoted amendments to the U.S. Constitution as a way to pander to the religious right has further divided our nation.

Bush has also worked hard at dismantling years and years of environmental gains to benefit of his corporate interests (DeLay must have been thrilled with this.)

Bush has run a government veiled in secrecy which has been bemoaned by even the White House press corps and civil libertarians across the nation.



What's their to defend in a Bush administration? Nothing but pure arrogance and incompetence.

He's a christian fundamentalist and most of all, a "true" american :confused:?
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
0
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Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Originally posted by: Forsythe
Originally posted by: Tiles2Tech
Originally posted by: bdude
New leadership would've been a good start...

New leadership, but without a freakin' plan??

I hate to sound angry and flame and stuff. But if you're saying that Kerry didn't have a plan, i have to tell you to pull your head out of your ass...


Not an option troll...

Next

Are you saying he didn't have a plan?