"Hatespeech" = "Newspeak"?

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FerrelGeek

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2009
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This thread is sounding an awful lot like a bunch of white people who are mad they can't freely use the N-word without consequence. And eskimospy who's actually making sense.

And the clueless strike again...

For myself, it has nothing to do with any desire on my part to shout racial epithets. It has to do with the ridiculous extent that PC has taken to where if someone uses the term 'niggardly' in a staff meeting, some idiot screams racism.

http://www.adversity.net/special/niggardly.htm

I apologize that the link isn't from dailykos, or one of the other politically acceptable sources. :p
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
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Freedom-of-Speech-united-states-of-america-21760995-960-720.jpg
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,061
55,562
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What I object to is the powerful subjugating the weak. You hold a different view. I never said there we no limits. In fact I said that was open for discussion, but apparently limits on what can be said and what can be done aren't in your thinking.

No, you objected to a wide range of actions that can be taken against people for objectionable speech, being fired from a job was only one of those. This is an extremely authoritarian position to take. If you want to hold that viewpoint that's fine, but don't attempt to say that forcing people to behave the way you want isn't authoritarian.

I never said that such a right was absolute, I said that people were well within their rights to fire people for hate speech. It is a sign of the weakness of your argument that you need to distort what I said.

I said that people shouldn't be fired for having political bumper stickers. You hold that they should. Oh you never said that, but you wouldn't want to restrict the freedom of the oppressor.

That is not even remotely close to what you said. Allow me to quote you:

That people are materially punished for expressing their thoughts however distasteful exists. Condemnation? Sure Punishment? I disagree. Should I be able to harm you as an expression of my freedom?

You said people should not be able to be punished for any expression they make, however distasteful and you later clarified that this did not just apply to the government, but to individuals. This would require a massive restriction in the freedom of expression for countless people as well as an issue with freedom of association, freedom of who to do business with, etc.

This is textbook authoritarianism.

You may be trying to walk this initial statement back because you realize how indefensible it is. If that's the case, let me know.

I never said there's shouldn't be laws or regulations. I do object to foolish use of power. I never argued that government is not necessary. I have said that government is a necessity which needs to be restrained and watched. The people matter more than the government. "Conservatives aren't actually against government". Well they might or might not be, but I don't presume to speak for them. "An incredibly authoritarian view". BS. I'm sure you would have said that to those who presented the King with the Magna Carta. After all they were restricting the freedom of the king. How dare they.

This argument is utterly nonsensical and has nothing to do with either my posts or the thread. Additionally, your example of the Magna Carta is actually helping MY point. You wish to use the power of the "king" to restrict the ability of private individuals to deal with their own affairs as they see fit. After all if the government isn't enforcing this 'no firing for hate speech' idea it is purposeless and toothless.

That's all irrelevant anyway though. The question at hand was whether or not people could have harmful action taken against them by others due to "hate speech". While we all appear to agree that it is inappropriate for the government to punish people for making hate speech you also think that individuals should be prohibited from taking action against those who say things that they deem to be unacceptable.

That is authoritarianism, plain and simple.
 

FerrelGeek

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2009
4,669
266
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No, my ancestors were abolitionists that were active on the underground railroad, helping runaway slaves get to freedom. I'm exceedingly proud of that.

Actually the dumbest analogy ever. Were your ancestors enslaved for hundreds of years... raped and abused, hanged, beaten, and exploited and still thought of as less than another race TO THIS DAY in a large majority of the south? All the while being called the word "cracker".


The analogy that cracker = n1gger is ridiculous. One word has a centuries long history of being used to subjugate and marginalize another race, the other is just a stupid word.



/thread
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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Allow me to quote myself.

If I don't like Obama I shouldn't be able to fire you for not voting for his opponent, or because you didn't donate or because you have a bumper sticker on your car. I don't think you or anyone else should be able to use Facebook or other social media and fire them because they said something I didn't like.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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That's all irrelevant anyway though. The question at hand was whether or not people could have harmful action taken against them by others due to "hate speech". While we all appear to agree that it is inappropriate for the government to punish people for making hate speech you also think that individuals should be prohibited from taking action against those who say things that they deem to be unacceptable.

/facepalm.

Let's back up. I'm not sure we've even established what constitutes "hate speech" to begin with. I know that term has been used by some to cover a great many things. Just what is it?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,061
55,562
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/facepalm.

Let's back up. I'm not sure we've even established what constitutes "hate speech" to begin with. I know that term has been used by some to cover a great many things. Just what is it?

There is a definition in the OP. Since the US does not have laws that cover hate speech for the most part and we are discussing private action presumably we would use this definition:

Hate speech is, outside the law, communication that vilifies a person or a group based on discrimination against that person or group.

I think that private individuals, when confronted with such speech, are perfectly entitled to decline to do business with the individual espousing such speech. They are not required to employ such people. The government does not and should not require people do do otherwise.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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There is a definition in the OP. Since the US does not have laws that cover hate speech for the most part and we are discussing private action presumably we would use this definition:



I think that private individuals, when confronted with such speech, are perfectly entitled to decline to do business with the individual espousing such speech. They are not required to employ such people. The government does not and should not require people do do otherwise.

I think we've hit on what may be our problem. We don't have a clear meaning of what "hate speech" is. It's left to the individual to decide. I'm sure most would agree there are egregious examples of what one could say or do. As an example if someone were Muslim and an employee verbally went after him or her I would find that completely unacceptable. Gone? No problem. But what if someone said that they don't trust Muslims? What if they felt that 9/11 was a preamble for a larger agenda which meant perpetual attacks and an attempt to take over and said that to a co-worker at the break table. Is that hate speech? What if someone attends a christian church who's preacher says something to that effect? What if the person who is a Christian responds that he or she believes homosexuality is a sin? What if someone wonders out loud of the Bell Curve might have been right? On and on and on.

And so we come to my concern. I feel that people who are doing a good job ought to be secure. I don't believe that anyone should be tossed to the street for any or even no reason. There ought to be cause and that should be substantial. Yes, businesses go through lean times so people get laid off or terminated. That's not what I am talking about. I'm saying that I don't approve of "hate speech" being able to be so broadly defined that virtually anything which may be imagined could be used to harm someone, and I don't care if it is a private business. To my way of thinking that's an abuse of power to do harm, and yes I believe that the government has a proper role to play in such things.

You quote a presumption, but I believe much of the resistance to the term is that what it means is entirely in the eye of the beholder, but what results is not always a difference of opinion.