Hate crime laws violate freedom of speech?

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Hate crimes may unconstitutional. I think in any case they are definitely a stupid way to punish people.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
I used to agree with South Park on hate crimes. Namely that the motivation for a crime shouldn't affect sentencing.

But if that were true, then 9/11 was only an act of murder, not terrorism.

I'm not sure what to think about it yet.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
I used to agree with South Park on hate crimes. Namely that the motivation for a crime shouldn't affect sentencing.

But if that were true, then 9/11 was only an act of murder, not terrorism.

I'm not sure what to think about it yet.

I think you need to learn the definitions of murder vs terrorism.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
I think you need to learn the definitions of murder vs terrorism.
I think he knows them - if 'why' it happened doesn't matter, then terrorism, isn't.

Hate crime laws certainly overlap with free speech concerns, but they aren't entirely incompatible.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
I think he knows them - if 'why' it happened doesn't matter, then terrorism, isn't.

Hate crime laws certainly overlap with free speech concerns, but they aren't entirely incompatible.


I can see where some people may think this isn't straight forward, but let me spell this out. Constitutional rights only apply to law abiding American citizens. Or they are only suppose to but lately we've been applying them to everyone. The moment you commit and are convicted of a crime you lose those rights. Period. So motivation for a crime should and is always considered. That's why 9/11 is terrorism and not just murder or man slaughter. That's why when a man hits his wife it's not just assault and battery, it's also domestic violence. Seriously, is this even really a discussion?
 

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
6,938
5
81
I can see where some people may think this isn't straight forward, but let me spell this out. Constitutional rights only apply to law abiding American citizens. Or they are only suppose to but lately we've been applying them to everyone. The moment you commit and are convicted of a crime you lose those rights. Period. So motivation for a crime should and is always considered. That's why 9/11 is terrorism and not just murder or man slaughter. That's why when a man hits his wife it's not just assault and battery, it's also domestic violence. Seriously, is this even really a discussion?
Another Tea Party Lawyer?

Constitutional rights apply to all Americans and to all lawful resident aliens. Convicted felons may have some rights suspended (right to bear arms, voting right, etc.) but they do not lose all their rights.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
38,909
32,017
136
Hate crimes are why setting fire to a cross on someones lawn is more then trespassing and illegal burning of refuse.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,592
6,715
126
The left wants to deny your right to speak out as a bigot, the right wants to deny your right to speak out against authority.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,592
6,715
126
Perhaps the court should ask the church to prove that homosexuality is a sin. If they can prove that, maybe they should be able to speak out against it.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Another Tea Party Lawyer?

Constitutional rights apply to all Americans and to all lawful resident aliens. Convicted felons may have some rights suspended (right to bear arms, voting right, etc.) but they do not lose all their rights.

Sigh, I was using a general term because I didn't want to go into very specific and lawyer dribble details. No, they don't lose ALL their rights. They still have rights to food, shelter, water, health, and physical protection. However, most of their rights like voting and right to bear arms are stripped. Other rights such as freedom of speech are "restricted" compared to the rest of the country while they are still serving time. Once they have done their time, they are back to full rights again.

Oh and I'm not a teabagger as I am not a repub. Not a dem either. This is just one of those issues where many dems or libs feel I am "right" as I believe in tough penalties for crime.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,592
6,715
126
Sigh, I was using a general term because I didn't want to go into very specific and lawyer dribble details. No, they don't lose ALL their rights. They still have rights to food, shelter, water, health, and physical protection. However, most of their rights like voting and right to bear arms are stripped. Other rights such as freedom of speech are "restricted" compared to the rest of the country while they are still serving time. Once they have done their time, they are back to full rights again.

Oh and I'm not a teabagger as I am not a repub. Not a dem either. This is just one of those issues where many dems or libs feel I am "right" as I believe in tough penalties for crime.

But you have no idea how criminal it is to believe in tough penalties for crime. You are very lucky there is no real justice.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Sigh, I was using a general term because I didn't want to go into very specific and lawyer dribble details. No, they don't lose ALL their rights. They still have rights to food, shelter, water, health, and physical protection. However, most of their rights like voting and right to bear arms are stripped. Other rights such as freedom of speech are "restricted" compared to the rest of the country while they are still serving time. Once they have done their time, they are back to full rights again.

Oh and I'm not a teabagger as I am not a repub. Not a dem either. This is just one of those issues where many dems or libs feel I am "right" as I believe in tough penalties for crime.

I seriously doubt you're a lawyer, except on the internet.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
On topic, hate crimes are not unconstitutional because the crime is not the hate, the crime is the murder or whatever act of violence committed. The motivation of hate is used as consideration at sentencing. Because motivation is almost always used in consideration of a crime. As already pointed out, without motivation, 9/11 was 'just' an act of mass murder. It was the political and religious motives that made it terrorism.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
I seriously doubt you're a lawyer, except on the internet.

Nope, but I helped my mother pass the Bar exam ad helped be her compile and research while a paralegal. So umm.. while I don't have a degree or a paper saying I know law, I can assure you I know a bit more than the average bear about it :)
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,536
10,974
136
I can see where some people may think this isn't straight forward, but let me spell this out. Constitutional rights only apply to law abiding American citizens. Or they are only suppose to but lately we've been applying them to everyone. The moment you commit and are convicted of a crime you lose those rights. Period. So motivation for a crime should and is always considered. That's why 9/11 is terrorism and not just murder or man slaughter. That's why when a man hits his wife it's not just assault and battery, it's also domestic violence. Seriously, is this even really a discussion?

Swing and a miss.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Swing and a miss.

Uhh how so? while I'm not saying that people have for political reasonings given Constitutional rights to those that should not have them, that doesn't mean they were correct to do so. Also, I'm not talking about basic humanitarian rights either. Food, water, shelter, and safety are rights ALL humans have as humans regardless where they are from for example. Constitutional rights such as voting, bearing arms, right to property, and freedom of speech for example are not humanitarian rights. By the US Constitution they are not granted to everyone on this planet.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
On topic, hate crimes are not unconstitutional because the crime is not the hate, the crime is the murder or whatever act of violence committed. The motivation of hate is used as consideration at sentencing. Because motivation is almost always used in consideration of a crime. As already pointed out, without motivation, 9/11 was 'just' an act of mass murder. It was the political and religious motives that made it terrorism.

Correct. Motive is also what determines lesser penalties such as manslaughter from murder 1. Premeditation and motive determine punishment, not the crime itself. This is why someone who commits a crime without intentionally trying to would get a lesser penalty that someone who willfully breaks the law. This kind of goes hand in hand with the debate on the 10 missionaries from Haiti. They all broke the law. Most did so in ignorance and should get a lesser penalty, but those who willfully broke the law should be slapped down hard.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,536
10,974
136
Uhh how so? while I'm not saying that people have for political reasonings given Constitutional rights to those that should not have them, that doesn't mean they were correct to do so. Also, I'm not talking about basic humanitarian rights either. Food, water, shelter, and safety are rights ALL humans have as humans regardless where they are from for example. Constitutional rights such as voting, bearing arms, right to property, and freedom of speech for example are not humanitarian rights. By the US Constitution they are not granted to everyone on this planet.

Constitutional protections are not just given to us citizens.

And :eek: at the bolded ...
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Constitutional rights are not 'given' or 'granted' to anyone. They are inherent. More to the point, the Constitution does not grant any sort of rights to anyone. What it does do is protect the people by limiting the powers and abilities of government. Also, where the Constitution says 'persons,' it means everyone (including non-citizens), where the Constitution says 'citizens,' it means citizens.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Constitutional protections are not just given to us citizens.

And :eek: at the bolded ...

What? those are NOT humanitarian rights. They are Constitutional rights. I fail to see why you would find that statement incorrect.

Also as I was stating...


http://public.findlaw.com/civil-rig...-persons-discrimination-more/le5_6rights.html
Inmates retain only those First Amendment rights, such as freedom of speech, which are not inconsistent with their status as inmates and which are in keeping with the legitimate objectives of the penal corrections system, such as preservation of order, discipline, and security. In this regard, prison officials are entitled to open mail directed to inmates to ensure that it does not contain any illegal items or weapons, but may not censor portions of correspondence which they find merely inflammatory or rude.

Note : Inmates do not have a right to have face-to-face interviews with news reporters or media representatives. The rationale for this limitation is that the media are not entitled to have access to inmates that members of the general public would not be able to have.

Meaning inmates have a REDUCED right of freedom of speech. They do not have full free of speech rights. They can not protest, except conditions of their incarceration that impinge upon safety rights and rights of the 8th amendment which deal with prisoner rights. Nothing I have stated thus far has been incorrect. Just because you "feel" differently about it doesn't change that fact.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
Sorry but I would rather keep the first ammendment intact even if it means allowing some fools to speak rather then slide down the slippery slope unto the road called Blasphemy and its laws like so many others under the guise of hate speech.

blasphemy laws
Perhaps in an effort to rehabilitate the United States’ image in the Muslim world, the Obama administration has joined a U.N. effort to restrict religious speech. This country should never sacrifice freedom of expression on the altar of religion.
By Jonathan Turley
Around the world, free speech is being sacrificed on the altar of religion. Whether defined as hate speech, discrimination or simple blasphemy, governments are declaring unlimited free speech as the enemy of freedom of religion. This growing movement has reached the United Nations, where religiously conservative countries received a boost in their campaign to pass an international blasphemy law. It came from the most unlikely of places: the United States.


While attracting surprisingly little attention, the Obama administration supported the effort of largely Muslim nations in the U.N. Human Rights Council to recognize exceptions to free speech for any "negative racial and religious stereotyping." The exception was made as part of a resolution supporting free speech that passed this month, but it is the exception, not the rule that worries civil libertarians. Though the resolution was passed unanimously, European and developing countries made it clear that they remain at odds on the issue of protecting religions from criticism. It is viewed as a transparent bid to appeal to the "Muslim street" and our Arab allies, with the administration seeking greater coexistence through the curtailment of objectionable speech. Though it has no direct enforcement (and is weaker than earlier versions), it is still viewed as a victory for those who sought to juxtapose and balance the rights of speech and religion.

A 'misused' freedom?
In the resolution, the administration aligned itself with Egypt, which has long been criticized for prosecuting artists, activists and journalists for insulting Islam. For example, Egypt recently banned a journal that published respected poet Helmi Salem merely because one of his poems compared God to a villager who feeds ducks and milks cows. The Egyptian ambassador to the U.N., Hisham Badr, wasted no time in heralding the new consensus with the U.S. that "freedom of expression has been sometimes misused" and showing that the "true nature of this right" must yield government limitations.

His U.S. counterpart, Douglas Griffiths, heralded "this joint project with Egypt" and supported the resolution to achieve "tolerance and the dignity of all human beings." While not expressly endorsing blasphemy prosecutions, the administration departed from other Western allies in supporting efforts to balance free speech against the protecting of religious groups.

Thinly disguised blasphemy laws are often defended as necessary to protect the ideals of tolerance and pluralism. They ignore the fact that the laws achieve tolerance through the ultimate act of intolerance: criminalizing the ability of some individuals to denounce sacred or sensitive values. We do not need free speech to protect popular thoughts or popular people. It is designed to protect those who challenge the majority and its institutions. Criticism of religion is the very measure of the guarantee of free speech — the literal sacred institution of society.

Blasphemy prosecutions in the West appear to have increased after the riots by Muslims following the publication of cartoons disrespecting prophet Mohammed in Denmark in 2005. Rioters killed Christians, burned churches and called for the execution of the cartoonists. While Western countries publicly defended free speech, some quietly moved to deter those who'd cause further controversies through unpopular speech.

In Britain, it is a crime to "abuse" or "threaten" a religion under the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006. A 15-year-old boy was charged last year for holding up a sign outside a Scientology building declaring, "Scientology is not a religion, it is a dangerous cult. "In France, famed actress Brigitte Bardot was convicted for saying in 2006 that Muslims were ruining France in a letter to then-Interior Minister (and now President) Nicolas Sarkozy. This year, Ireland joined this self-destructive trend with a blasphemy law that calls for the prosecution of anyone who writes or utters views deemed "grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion, thereby causing outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion; and he or she intends, by the publication of the matter concerned, to cause such outrage."

'Blasphemy' incidents
Consider just a few such Western "blasphemy" cases in the past two years:

• In Holland, Dutch prosecutors arrested cartoonist Gregorius Nekschot for insulting Christians and Muslims with cartoons, including one that caricatured a Christian fundamentalist and a Muslim fundamentalist as zombies who want to marry and attend gay rallies.

• In Canada, the Alberta human rights commission punished the Rev. Stephen Boission and the Concerned Christian Coalition for anti-gay speech, not only awarding damages but also censuring future speech that the commission deems inappropriate.

• In Italy, comedian Sabina Guzzanti was put under criminal investigation for joking at a rally that "in 20 years, the pope will be where he ought to be — in hell, tormented by great big poofter (gay) devils, and very active ones."

• In London, an aide to British Foreign Secretary David Miliband was arrested for "inciting religious hatred" at his gym by shouting obscenities about Jews while watching news reports of Israel's bombardment of Gaza.Also, Dutch politician Geert Wilders was barred from entering Britain as a "threat to public policy, public security or public health" because he made a movie describing the Quran as a "fascist" book and Islam as a violent religion.

• In Poland, Catholic magazine Gosc Niedzielny was fined $11,000 for inciting "contempt, hostility and malice"by comparing the abortion of a woman to the medical experiments at Auschwitz.

The "blasphemy" cases include the prosecution of writers for calling Mohammed a "pedophile" because of his marriage to 6-year-old Aisha (which was consummated when she was 9). A far-right legislator in Austria, a publisher in India and a city councilman in Finland have been prosecuted for repeating this view of the historical record.

In the flipside of the cartoon controversy, Dutch prosecutors this year have brought charges against the Arab European League for a cartoon questioning the Holocaust.

What's next?
Private companies and institutions are following suit in what could be seen as responding to the Egyptian-U.S. call for greater "responsibility" in controlling speech. For example, in an act of unprecedented cowardice and self-censorship, Yale University Press published The Cartoons That Shook the World, a book by Jytte Klausen on the original Mohammed cartoons. Yale, however, (over Klausen's objections) cut the actual pictures of the cartoons. It was akin to publishing a book on the Sistine Chapel while barring any images of the paintings.

The public and private curtailment on religious criticism threatens religious and secular speakers alike. However, the fear is that, when speech becomes sacrilegious, only the religious will have true free speech. It is a danger that has become all the more real after the decision of the Obama administration to join in the effort to craft a new faith-based speech standard. It is now up to Congress and the public to be heard before the world leaves free speech with little more than a hope and a prayer.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,536
10,974
136
Unless by "nothing" you mean that little bit about the constitution only applying to US citizens, then sure.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Constitutional rights are not 'given' or 'granted' to anyone. They are inherent. More to the point, the Constitution does not grant any sort of rights to anyone. What it does do is protect the people by limiting the powers and abilities of government. Also, where the Constitution says 'persons,' it means everyone (including non-citizens), where the Constitution says 'citizens,' it means citizens.

No, they are given. Inherent are humanitarian right. The Bill of Rights as an amendment to grant rights because originally the Constitution was written without such. Many of them touch upon inherent rights, but not all. The right to bear arms is NOT an inherent right. It's a granted right by the constitution for example. The right to property is a granted right as well. The only truly inherent right you have as a human is the right to your life if we are now trying to get into the realm of philosophy instead of law.

An example of the right to property that is not granted is that illegal immigrants are technically not allowed to own land in America. Not saying that some don't, but the fact remains that illegal immigrants have zero right to land ownership in this country. If you fail to see that, then it is your fault.